Atheist and Christian perspectives

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Sharingan

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Hey guys,

I need some information about the belief of: 1) the origin of the universe and 2) life after phisycal death - from both an atheists and Christian perspective.
And also some info on the actions of Atheists and Christians in: 1) Community involvement and outreach and 2)Enviromental concerns and sustainability.

I would really love some information on first hand experience or any other websites or books which will might be helpful.

Thankyou:wave:
 

ThaiDuykhang

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Sharingan said:
Hey guys,

I need some information about the belief of: 1) the origin of the universe and 2) life after phisycal death - from both an atheists and Christian perspective.
And also some info on the actions of Atheists and Christians in: 1) Community involvement and outreach and 2)Enviromental concerns and sustainability.

I would really love some information on first hand experience or any other websites or books which will might be helpful.

Thankyou:wave:

Atheists and TEs: Universe came into being with a big bang. before the big bang, everything is packed into nothing. then nothing exploded because of a dust went into it(oh yeah? where the dust comes from?)
YECs: In the beginning(about 6000 years ago) God created the heaven and earth.
 
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Dannager

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ThaiDuykhang said:
Atheists and TEs: Universe came into being with a big bang. before the big bang, everything is packed into nothing. then nothing exploded because of a dust went into it(oh yeah? where the dust comes from?)
Ignore ThaiDuykhang - this is a strawman argument that attempts to display an argument he disagrees with as having qualities it doesn't. He doesn't actually know anything about the Big Bang (since he labels it an explosion, which is false, and also says it was caused "because of a dust went into it", which is perposterous, not to mention gramatically horrifying).
YECs: In the beginning(about 6000 years ago) God created the heaven and earth.
This is an accurate portrayal of the YEC standpoint.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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Dannager said:
Ignore ThaiDuykhang - this is a strawman argument that attempts to display an argument he disagrees with as having qualities it doesn't. He doesn't actually know anything about the Big Bang (since he labels it an explosion, which is false, and also says it was caused "because of a dust went into it", which is perposterous, not to mention gramatically horrifying).
.

yeah nothing exploded. you better explain why some galaxies rotates clockwise some CCW. nothing can't change itself. right? your personal attack labels you're out of words.

I believe in big bang, but that's my end of world view but my origin of universe view;) :D
 
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notto

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ThaiDuykhang said:
yeah nothing exploded. you better explain why some galaxies rotates clockwise some CCW.

Actually, you should start by explaining why you think we wouldn't expect some to rotate clockwise and some counterclockwise.

Things (including entire galaxies) collide in space and are affected by other bodies. No reason to expect everything to be rotating one way.

How does one define 'clockwise' in space anyway? If I look at the galaxy from the other side, it would be spinning the right way.

You need to brush up on your physics and quit bringing up arguments that have been debunked or are just based on poor scientific reasoning in the first place.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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notto said:
Actually, you should start by explaining why you think we wouldn't expect some to rotate clockwise and some counterclockwise.

Things (including entire galaxies) collide in space and are affected by other bodies. No reason to expect everything to be rotating one way.

How does one define 'clockwise' in space anyway? If I look at the galaxy from the other side, it would be spinning the right way.

You need to brush up on your physics and quit bringing up arguments that have been debunked or are just based on poor scientific reasoning in the first place.

1. Preservation of argular momentum dictates that
2. how many collision have you observed? and how many rotate in in different directions?
3. look it from whatever direction you like, you can't make two galaxies ratating in different directions appear to be rotating the same direction
4. first 3 already refuted and notto's words are backfiring.
 
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gluadys

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Sharingan said:
Hey guys,

I need some information about the belief of: 1) the origin of the universe and 2) life after phisycal death - from both an atheists and Christian perspective.
And also some info on the actions of Atheists and Christians in: 1) Community involvement and outreach and 2)Enviromental concerns and sustainability.

I would really love some information on first hand experience or any other websites or books which will might be helpful.

Thankyou:wave:

Well you won't get any athiest perspectives in this forum as they are not allowed to post here.

On some matters there is no consensus among Christians. Different Christians have different beliefs. For example, on the origin of the universe, most Christians accept the scientific account as factual, but some do not. All, however, would agree that the universe exists because God created it. And all Christians would agree there is to be a resurrection to life after physical death.

I am glad to see that you are interested in Community involvement and Environmental concerns. There are, unfortunately, some Christians who do not see these as important to a Christian witness in the world. Most, however, do agree they are essential aspects of our testimony. They are part of our "life-style" witness, which is a lot more important than verbal witness in many cases.

Community involvement is demanded by the command to love our neighbour and to seek justice (i.e. social justice more than punishment for criminals) and love mercy. And environmental concerns come from the creation mandate given even before the Fall, to care for the garden in which God has placed us, and exercise dominion over the earth as stewards of God.

Have you posted this in the open forum where athiests and other non-Christians can also respond?


PS A good Canadian web-site on community involvement and environmental perspectives is www.kairoscanada.org KAIROS:Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives is a co-operative project of 11 Canadian churches/church agencies. It has a wide range of programs dealing with issues such as aborigianl rights, ecology, human rights, economic justice and social justice on the basis of Christian faith.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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gluadys said:
Well you won't get any athiest perspectives in this forum as they are not allowed to post here.

On some matters there is no consensus among Christians. Different Christians have different beliefs. For example, on the origin of the universe, most Christians accept the scientific account as factual, but some do not. All, however, would agree that the universe exists because God created it. And all Christians would agree there is to be a resurrection to life after physical death.
big bang? scientific account? Explain to me how nothing banged? and why nothing should bang? some brilliant big bangist came with the conclusion that there were dusts went into nothing and contributed to the bang.(can be found in text books) where the dust came from?
You call this science?
TEs believe in the beginning dust... YECs believe in the beginning God...
 
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shernren

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GOOD HEAVENS. (And I mean that. The heavens were created by God and display His glory. Real scientific theories like evolution and the Big Bang are things of beauty when they are fully understood and appreciated. There are no ugly scientific theories, only people who don't understand them and go on to make ugly parodies of them. Keats was right: all truth is beauty.)

Atheists and TEs: Universe came into being with a big bang. before the big bang, everything is packed into nothing. then nothing exploded because of a dust went into it(oh yeah? where the dust comes from?)

Show me even one credible site that describes the Big Bang in terms even remotely resembling or evoking such a horrendous misrepresentation of the Big Bang Theory.

As always, for a glimpse of the real deal go to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

you better explain why some galaxies rotates clockwise some CCW. nothing can't change itself.

The Law of Angular Momentum Conservation states that the angular momentum of a system is conserved unless an external torque acts on the system. To credibly apply this law to disprove the Big Bang theory, you will have to:

1. Measure / calculate the initial angular momentum of the initial singularity.

2. Measure / calculate the combined angular momentum of all the existent galaxies in the universe today.

3. Demonstrate that there is a change in the amount of angular momentum between value 1 and value 2, and that there is no possible source of external torque that can account for the difference (I don't know, GR / quantum physics might throw spanners in at the scale of the very large and very small)

Or to your specific formulation, you have to demonstrate that there is no possible combination of galaxies, some rotating clockwise and some counterclockwise, that can correctly conserve the angular momentum of the initial singularity.

I await mathematical formulations.

To Sharingan:

The chief difference between atheists and Christians in these areas is not necessarily in scientific details. It is only some Christians that disagree with the general scientific community on issues like the origin of life, not all.

What atheists and Christians must definitely disagree on is the significance of these areas. What does it mean? Where will it go?

For an atheist:

1. Origin of life: some atheists believe that it was simply a random occurence, others that such organized systems will inevitably emerge in complex chemical environments. Whichever it is, the atheist believes that there was no significance. The universe would not have been any different with or without life and there was no point to it happening.
2. There is no part of the personality that remains and is observable after death. Therefore the human does not have an after-death life of any kind.
3 & 4. The typical atheist response is utilitarian, namely that anything which works is good. We should preserve the environment because if we destroy planet Earth we ourselves will have no planet left to live in. We should have strong and healthy communities because we have evolved for such communities and therefore we are worse off without them. Notice that the emphasis is on what we can do for ourselves, what the action brings about for our own benefit. There is no "external mandate". For example, if we had another planet on which we could live, and if we could easily live there, then there would be no problem with destroying the environment on this planet.

For a Christian:

1. Whether life originated naturally (i.e., God didn't need to suspend any physical laws for life to arise) or supernaturally, it was an act of God. In the same way that history is willed by God even though it has explainable causes, the origin of life was willed by God even if it has physically explainable causes as TEs believe. Life has a significance.
2. There is a wide diversity of beliefs. Some believe that there is a definite heaven and hell, others that there is only heaven and all humans will eventually be in it, others that there is only heaven and that humans consigned to hell will be permanently destroyed after a finite period of time (instead of "burning ever after") But the chief difference between all three and atheism is that Christians must recognize that after death the human persists, because God has given humans immortality (all or only some depends on personal view), and is judged for his/her actions on earth, even though none of this is scientifically verifiable here on earth.
3 & 4. We are directly commanded by God to be good stewards of His creation and to love our neighbours as ourselves. This stems directly out of the fact that God created our environment and God created our neighbours, and that God's intended will was for all these components to coexist in harmony. Thus Christianity is not so much concerned about "what good will preserving the environment do for me" so much as if God wants it done then we do it (a "deontological" basis).

Hope I've answered your questions :)
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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[quote = wikipedia]the Big Bang is the scientific theory that the Universe emerged from an enormously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago[/quote]what does dense mean? does it mean matter existed there? if so where did these matter come from? what is heat?("hot") where does it come from?how did energy came into being? You can't created something out of nothing, only God can do it.If you answer "no" to the 2nd question. then why nothing should bang and how nothing banged? When they solved it, I guess it's God or dusts created it. it's pure religion.Text book teaches after some dust went into the core, it starts spinning and eject everything. that should nullify all your comments. when you fall off a spinning merry-go-around you always spin the same direction of the merry-go-around. if you don't agree with this then tell me why it should bang at all.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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Sharingan said:
gluadys said:
Well you won't get any athiest perspectives in this forum as they are not allowed to post here.
quote]

o they wont?:confused:

do u mean this entire form or this particular thread or post area? if so ..where do i post it?? :holy:
Here http://www.christianforums.com/f70-creation-evolution.html you'll find some atheists. It doesn't really matter what atheists think. there hasn't been a debate/fighting between atheists and TEs on this matter.
 
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shernren

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what does dense mean?

Density is defined as the amount of matter, i.e. mass, per unit volume.

does it mean matter existed there?

Yes.

if so where did these matter come from?

Don't expect the atheists to agree, but God made it! The Big Bang theory basically states that space is expanding and matter along with it. Where the matter came from is a subject of considerable debate, the current naturalistic explanation is that the production of matter arose from quantum fluctuations in the vacuum and was balanced by gravitational potential, the former being "positive energy" and the latter "negative energy" (as far as I know).

If I have a radar gun I can tell you that a particular car is speeding down the road at 120 kmph, even if I can't tell you whether that car was made in the US or in Japan or in Korea or even in Malaysia. In the same way knowing the expansion pattern of matter and observing it is enough to extrapolate the age of the universe at 13 billion years, even if it is not known where that matter came from.

Text book teaches after some dust went into the core, it starts spinning and eject everything.

I want a word-for-word quote from an actual textbook written within the past 10 years before I'm going to take that seriously. The burden of proof is on you to produce it. The "angular momentum problem" only exists if we are to take your interpretation of the Big Bang seriously. Without substantiation we are not entitled to.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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shernren said:
Density is defined as the amount of matter, i.e. mass, per unit volume.



Yes.



Don't expect the atheists to agree, but God made it! The Big Bang theory basically states that space is expanding and matter along with it. Where the matter came from is a subject of considerable debate, the current naturalistic explanation is that the production of matter arose from quantum fluctuations in the vacuum and was balanced by gravitational potential, the former being "positive energy" and the latter "negative energy" (as far as I know).
then how to teach Big Bang in public schools? When you think Creationism isn't science, do you think this is science?
Without matter/energy there's no gravitational potential.
where did quantum fluctuations come from?

shernren said:
I want a word-for-word quote from an actual textbook written within the past 10 years before I'm going to take that seriously. The burden of proof is on you to produce it. The "angular momentum problem" only exists if we are to take your interpretation of the Big Bang seriously. Without substantiation we are not entitled to.
I can swear it comes from a text book. however the textbook isn't mine and the text is read from a video. I can't see the book title clearly as the text is small. however you'd better explain how it should banged first without using this theory.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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find the spinning big bang from "your" site
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE260_1.html
so even talkorigin doesn't doubt it indeed spun before the bang. I don't think any other source is needed.
my response to talkorigin.
1.a. anything expands very fast can be called an explosion.
1.c. when all children spinning out of a merri-go-around going too fast(you have to imagine this or get an eletric one and test yourself). everyone spins in the same direction. this is common knowledge. the part closer to the the center spins slower that the part that's further away from the center.

1.b. see the explanation in 1.c
2. the direction something flies is independant of its spinning.
 
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notto

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ThaiDuykhang said:
1. Preservation of argular momentum dictates that
No it doesn't. It says nothing about galaxies spinning the same way.
2. how many collision have you observed? and how many rotate in in different directions?
At least one. At least one. It happens and has been observed to happen.
3. look it from whatever direction you like, you can't make two galaxies ratating in different directions appear to be rotating the same direction
And you haven't told us why we would expect them to all go the same direction. You just claim they should with nothing to back it up.
4. first 3 already refuted and notto's words are backfiring.

You are a great creationist. You don't know what you are talking about yet you claim victory.
 
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shernren

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then how to teach Big Bang in public schools? When you think Creationism isn't science, do you think this is science?

The Big Bang theory states that matter is moving apart measurably, leading to the conclusion that all matter was once in a state of super-dense compression which by GR could only exist in a singularity.

The Big Bang theory does not speculate on the source of that matter. That is more the domain of speculative quantum physics.

To be honest that's something I've learned only today. Which is good - it means I haven't wasted today! :D

Without matter/energy there's no gravitational potential.

Exactly. As matter/energy came into existence it "dragged into existence" along with it gravitational potential. Matter is positive, grav potential negative. The net sum is zero.

where did quantum fluctuations come from?

From the quantum properties of the vacuum. Heisenberg's Uncertainty can be rearranged to show that the product of uncertainty in energy and uncertainty in time is not less than h-bar. This means that the energy content of the vacuum cannot be fixed arbitrarily at zero since the product of zero and anything must be zero, and thus that the vacuum has a small uncertainty in energy content. Over a short enough time this uncertainty is high enough that it is possible for particle-antiparticle virtual pairs to be generated provided they re-annihilate within a short enough time.

I can swear it comes from a text book. however the textbook isn't mine and the text is read from a video. I can't see the book title clearly as the text is small. however you'd better explain how it should banged first without using this theory.

Okay then, give me the exact text. I'll see if I can find it online.

1.a. anything expands very fast can be called an explosion.

Technically this may be true in a limited sense, however the obvious connotation of "explosion" is matter expanding into a pre-existent, static space. This is completely different from the Big Bang's proposal that space expands and "pulls" matter along with it.

1.c. when all children spinning out of a merri-go-around going too fast(you have to imagine this or get an eletric one and test yourself). everyone spins in the same direction. this is common knowledge. the part closer to the the center spins slower that the part that's further away from the center.

Pop quiz: what does the law of conservation of angular momentum predict when several children jump off a merri-go-round all at once? Bonus question: in what direction does the angular momentum vector point?
 
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