Assume two things with me... Evolution is not a lie, AND the Bible is not a lie...

ron4shua

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The only way the two can coexist , accept our Elohim as Omnipotent capable of anything .
Think in abstract of what , why & how our Elohim's plan of pure LOVE can BE .
* * * * * * *
IF , I say IF our Infinite Almighty Elohim YAH can zap , all there is up in six twenty-four hour days . Just what would hamstring this Omnipotent Being from cranking in a few billion years of history ?

Hallelu-YAH .
 
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capnhi9er

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Actually, I spent ten minutes as a complete layman googling (timed myself too) and came up with this list:
And that list is just gene duplication. It's not rare, unusual, or unknown.

That would be “Macro Evolution” because two genes exist where only one existed before purported duplication. My point is “actually being observed”. Remember, scientists have absolutely no genetic material available from millions of years ago. They are attempting to infer ancient history by analyzing living organisms. This is like an engineer who has only seen a 2015 Ford Focus trying to describe a Model T Ford and determine the steps it took the Model T to “Macro Evolve’ into the Focus.

Let’s look at couple of your sources:

Opsin in the eye: “At some point [not observed], the original gene was duplicated [assumption]… The two kinds of opsins may have [speculation]… One may have been [speculation]… When cnidarians and bilaterians diverged [not observed]… they each inherited [assumption]… In each lineage, the opsins were further duplicated [assumption] and evolved into [not observed] into new forms. And, thus, from a single opsin early in the history of animals, a diversity of light-sensing molecules has evolved [statement of faith not scientific observation].”

tRNA endonucleases of Archea: “The first [there are others] hypothesis [scientific conjecture not fact]… who assumed [assumption] after duplication [not observed], one gene copy would be [speculation]… This redundant copy would become [speculation] a nonfunctional pseudogene [myth of Junk DNA]… Ohno postulated [speculation], such a gene would [speculation] reemerge [not observed] from nonfunctionality [assumption] with a new function [speculation] acquired as a result of chance mutations [statement of faith not scientific observation]. There are a number of reasons for doubting this hypothesis [yup].”
An alternative [among others] to Ohno’s hypothesis [scientific conjecture not fact] is that both functions are already present [speculation] before gene duplication [not observed]

Honest “scientific” literature is replete with this type of waffling verbiage. This is necessary because Evolutionists cannot legitimately claim to prove “Macro Evolution”. It is your choice of whether you want to call it fact or faith.


Care to define "kind"? Because the evidence we have is not exactly indicative that there is [I said:
any[/I] limitation.

A “kind” is a group of organisms genetically compatible for reproduction “after their kind”. This does not imply actual mating in nature. But it does require that the structure of the genome be compatible. This would require the same number of chromosomes [chimps with 48 and humans with 46 are NOT the same “kind”] and the same organization of genes on each chromosomes [otherwise the chromosome from the father would not be compatible with the one from the mother].

Another critical determinant of kind is the protein coatings of both egg and sperm. The specific coating on the sperm allows it to penetrate the specific coating on the egg. Dogs have one set of coatings and cats have a different set. Dog sperm cannot fertilize a cat egg by normal penetration. If you choose to believe in “Macro Evolution” then you have to explain how both new versions of these proteins have “Macro Evolved” AT THE SAME TIME in every species. Otherwise there would be a time that a cat sperm could not mate with a cat egg. I find it easier to believe that each “kind’ was created with its own unique proteins in the beginning and they have not “Macro Evolved” since. This is perfectly compatible with a single genome for all domestic dogs (Canis familiaris).
 
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Neogaia777

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One cannot assume that is true, and believe Jesus created it all. One must chose.
Not so... I can think of a number of possibilities where/in which both could be true...

If your open to the possibilities that anything is possible with God...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Not so... I can think of a number of possibilities where/in which both could be true...

If your open to the possibilities that anything is possible with God...

God Bless!

I don't recall God ever saying specifically that "all" descended from Adam, another possibility, other than the ones I already mentioned, is that Adam and happened "somewhere" (another planet, another earth maybe) and during the flood they were transplanted to this earth (I know it's a stretch, but all things are possible with God) something like what happened in this episode could have happened, you just never know:


God Bless!
 
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dad

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I don't recall God ever saying specifically that "all" descended from Adam, another possibility, other than the ones I already mentioned, is that Adam and happened "somewhere" (another planet, another earth maybe) and during the flood they were transplanted to this earth (I know it's a stretch, but all things are possible with God)
No. One thing that is NOT possible with God is for Him to be a liar. God created Adam on earth. The flood was covered this world and in this world they got off the ark.
 
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Cearbhall

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Humor me for a minute and assume two things with me... Evolution is not a lie, AND the Bible is not a lie...

Now, ready, set, GO!

Where is the middle ground...? What's left when you assume these two things...
Well, I was raised Catholic, so these two statements seem perfectly compatible to me. This was my faith. The idea was, and I quote, "The Bible is true, and some of it actually happened."

The key here is that there are different kinds of truth. It's possible for the authors of the Bible to convey messages that are philosophically and theologically true without being literally or historically factual, in the same way that Jesus sometimes used fictional parables. I can say that Shakespeare made shrewd observations about life in his plays without believing that they are anything but plays.

Now, I'm not saying that nothing in the Bible happened. But this is specifically about the beginning of Genesis, and that story is among the least likely in the entire book.
 
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dad

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Well, I was raised Catholic, so these two statements seem perfectly compatible to me. This was my faith. The idea was, and I quote, "The Bible is true, and some of it actually happened."

The key here is that there are different kinds of truth. It's possible for the authors of the Bible to convey messages that are philosophically and theologically true without being literally or historically factual, in the same way that Jesus sometimes used fictional parables. I can say that Shakespeare made shrewd observations about life in his plays without believing that they are anything but plays.

Now, I'm not saying that nothing in the Bible happened. But this is specifically about the beginning of Genesis, and that story is among the least likely in the entire book.
Great way to make work for a group of folks that claim they can tell you what happened and what didn't. What a scam.
 
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Neogaia777

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Great way to make work for a group of folks that claim they can tell you what happened and what didn't. What a scam.

There is no way to believe in YEC, unless you are calling God a liar, or deceiver, that he created all the evidence for evolution in order to intentionally deceive us, so, whose calling God a liar, not me, I just believe differently than you do...
 
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whois

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Humor me for a minute and assume two things with me... Evolution is not a lie, AND the Bible is not a lie...

Now, ready, set, GO!

Where is the middle ground...? What's left when you assume these two things...
what's left?
the status quo, that's what.
do you really believe that mendels laws of heredity will all of a sudden be negated?
trust me, the disciplines of genomics and molecular biology will live on.
if god is true then the only thing that won't be proven is that abiogenesis is true.
so far, science has been unable to come up with a workable scenario.
 
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dad

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There is no way to believe in YEC, unless you are calling God a liar, or deceiver, that he created all the evidence for evolution in order to intentionally deceive us, so, whose calling God a liar, not me, I just believe differently than you do...
Rubbish. The deception is in the way science chose to interpret creation. Period. There is no excuse for unbelief.
 
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Cearbhall

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Hard to come to a decision about that seeing as science can't make up it's mind whether evolution produces improved critters or just critters that are good at reproducing.
I think you're misunderstanding what scientists say and what evolution is. It's neither of these. Evolution is the name for the existence of genetic mutations in offspring. Some mutations are beneficial, some are harmful, and some are neutral (ginger hair is one example).

Natural selection is the name for the fact that those offspring who have beneficial mutations are more likely to live long enough to reproduce, or to reproduce more, which means that a higher proportion of the next generation will possess that mutation. So, while evolution leads to both improved and worsened organisms, the ones that get to reproduce are the ones who survive longer.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think you're misunderstanding what scientists say and what evolution is. It's neither of these. Evolution is the name for the existence of genetic mutations in offspring. Some mutations are beneficial, some are harmful, and some are neutral (ginger hair is one example).

Natural selection is the name for the fact that those offspring who have beneficial mutations are more likely to live long enough to reproduce, or to reproduce more, which means that a higher proportion of the next generation will possess that mutation. So, while evolution leads to both improved and worsened organisms, the ones that get to reproduce are the ones who survive longer.

When I said "science can't make up it's mind" I was referring to the 'scientific knowledge' often given in these forums. I'm not going to run to a science book every time an evolutionist says something about it. I take it that they are speaking accurately for science. And what their opinions boil down to is that evolution proceeds, without regard to "improvement", through those most able to reproduce.
 
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Cearbhall

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When I said "science can't make up it's mind" I was referring to the 'scientific knowledge' often given in these forums. I'm not going to run to a science book every time an evolutionist says something about it. I take it that they are speaking accurately for science.
Well, you'd have to show me quotes, then. I can't say I've seen much misrepresentation of evolution on this website among those who agree with it. What I usually see is what I just said to you. Most of the misinformation I see is from Creationists who apparently did not have a quality science curriculum at their schools and have based their opinions on straw men.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So, while evolution leads to both improved and worsened organisms, the ones that get to reproduce are the ones who survive longer.

Not much different from what I said.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Humor me for a minute and assume two things with me... Evolution is not a lie, AND the Bible is not a lie...

Now, ready, set, GO!

Where is the middle ground...? What's left when you assume these two things...

Ideas? Comments?

God Bless!

Breed mates with breed producing new breeds within the species - no missing links exist because they never existed. Husky remains Husky until mated with another breed - at which point a new breed comes into the record, and the Husky still remains a Husky. I could humor you, but then I would be lying about evolution being true and have to ignore all of science and observations of the natural world. There is no middle ground - only what we observe and what every single experiment has confirmed - that Husky never evolves into anything but remains a Husky - that E coli remain E coli.

The only middle ground is that they have mistaken those different breeds in the fossil record as separate species, just like they mistook Darwin's Finches as separate species even though we now know they all interbreed and produce fertile offspring. But correct their mistakes? No sir, that would falsify their prime example of speciation, so the fraud will continue.
 
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The Cadet

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When I said "science can't make up it's mind" I was referring to the 'scientific knowledge' often given in these forums. I'm not going to run to a science book every time an evolutionist says something about it. I take it that they are speaking accurately for science.

Why would you do that?! Most of the people here are not experts on any given subject; we're laypeople, just like you. I have very little understanding of the nitty-gritty of population genetics and how mutations in the individual propagate to the entire population. Even assuming we do have some bona-fide experts (as RickG, sfs, and [serious] claim to be), not everyone knows everything, and assuming that any given person on a Christian forum is totally correct is a ridiculous thing to do. You want to understand evolution? You really ought to reach for those science books.
 
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Cearbhall

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Not much different from what I said.
It is different, however. And it's a crucial difference.

If I may ask, what about evolution is unsatisfactory to you?
I don't recall God ever saying specifically that "all" descended from Adam, another possibility, other than the ones I already mentioned, is that Adam and happened "somewhere" (another planet, another earth maybe)
I think you would be very interested in reading about "Y-chromosomal Adam." :)
 
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AV1611VET

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Yup, but you probably won't find many people willing to admit they could be wrong about their interpretations of the story in Genesis

That would mean they are wrong, and only Jesus is never wrong,..so that must mean.....oh....wait
Since when does "willing to admit one could be wrong" equate to "they are wrong"?

5+4=?

I could be wrong, but I think the answer is 9.
 
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