Aspie feeling distant from Christian dominant culture/society

[muichimotsu]

In order to try to bridge the gap slightly, I thought a thread concerning my Aspergers in relation to Christianity (since I probably touched a nerve in regards to a discussion regarding Aspies and tendency towards being Christian, etc) would be a way to bury the hatchet

I've been an apostate for quite a while (well over 10 years, since I was formally not Christian around 13 or so, though I stuck it out until I was 18, at which point my parents had an implied truce). It's rarely been an issue, except when I try to discuss it online, which has isolated me especially from family on my mother's side, having to unfriend them because they thought I was "corrupting" their oldest son.

But there's always been a feeling of separation in terms of being only somewhat able to relate in regards to Christian imagery, etc. The values can be admirable, though there's also a tendency to be excessively altruistic and other things I'm not entirely able to see as valuable or fulfilling. It's not as if I don't have some general familial connection, though I had little concern about missing a family reunion because of a convention I had responsibilities at. Part of that was because I don't feel a particular sentiment towards distant family, but also because I see people at fan conventions as more a family than the one I was born with for the most part.

The last few times have been particularly troubling, especially with my mother, a woman of Christian faith herself, finding one of my cousins almost obnoxious in implicitly targeting me, knowing I was everything he was painting as some evil threat to Christianity in America. We've since stopped the church services after the reunions, from what I'm aware.

It's not as if I don't have a general knowledge and curiosity about Christianity in a literary and cultural sense of something that people find important personally. I'm a religion major, which I imagine could be a bit unusual in many Aspies' minds, if we're going with the idea that many lean more towards hard sciences, etc, as opposed to social sciences or the humanities. Always came up with people that they thought I'd be going into divinity school/seminary because of my major, but that's another issue entirely of religious studies versus theology and how they nonetheless overlap in academia to an extent.

So, considering there do seem to be other with HFA that are seemingly more the social Aspie that's just awkward instead of myself, who isn't nearly as social and doesn't care as much for human contact as other Aspies may, do you have any advice or general thoughts about this, especially if we're trying to meet somewhere in the middle?

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know how old you are. I'm almost 40. I have Asperger's but it doesn't define who I am, it is just a characteristic that makes me extreme introverted. If you are younger, if you work on things your ability to relate to other people will improve.

Many people with Asperger's develope defense mechanisms to deal with emotional pain that involves distancing themselves from other people and they develope an identity as a loner. With therapy that can be worked on.

I was a social sciences major too. I think that helps me a lot dealing with people. If you are a religion major, surely you can understand what religion means to other people and be able to relate to them on that level? Or maybe you have some emotional issues yourself that you need to work out first.

Maybe you are confusing altruism and extraversion among Christians. Some people are just people persons, they derive a lot of satisfaction and energy from just being around people. I can't relate to that but I understand it. For me, I get energy from being alone. Neither one makes you more or less Christian, necessarily, but Christianity and our culture in general, here in the US, is dominated by people that are extraverted, not introverts.

 

[muichimotsu]

I don't know how old you are. I'm almost 40. I have Asperger's but it doesn't define who I am, it is just a characteristic that makes me extreme introverted. If you are younger, if you work on things your ability to relate to other people will improve.

Many people with Asperger's develope defense mechanisms to deal with emotional pain that involves distancing themselves from other people and they develope an identity as a loner. With therapy that can be worked on.

I was a social sciences major too. I think that helps me a lot dealing with people. If you are a religion major, surely you can understand what religion means to other people and be able to relate to them on that level? Or maybe you have some emotional issues yourself that you need to work out first.

Maybe you are confusing altruism and extraversion among Christians. Some people are just people persons, they derive a lot of satisfaction and energy from just being around people. I can't relate to that but I understand it. For me, I get energy from being alone. Neither one makes you more or less Christian, necessarily, but Christianity and our culture in general, here in the US, is dominated by people that are extraverted, not introverts.

I don't make Aspergers the primary defining trait. Heck, many times, I almost forget, esp. with DSM V making it Autism Spectrum Disorder, which is arguably simpler, since it relies on the spectrum categorization instead of strict symptom based constraints. I'm younger than you, but I wonder what you specifically mean by people skills. I've socialized more because of my Aspergers in a sense, finding others that have similar interests, even if they aren't entirely removed from Aspie like traits of their own, mostly in the form of strong interests more than social difficulties. I'm not so thin skinned that I cannot take criticism in one form or another (like when I make a post on FB that seems like I'm trying to be a know it all), but the expectations of society aren't always realistic in what they want in terms of results and speed.

Not sure what your major was, but I'm pretty sure psychology isn't a social science. It's not as if I didn't go to a psychologist initially for diagnosis, but to say that somehow I've made myself out to be a loner might be leaping to the wrong conclusion, just slightly...

I can understand, but it doesn't mean I have to give religion the respect by default that I can give a person in general. People can take religion too seriously and make it so much a definitive part of themselves that they can't see common humanity in those that they otherwise disagree with.

Extraversion is more common, if we're going by general statistics of MBTI, though there's always limits to that. But I won't deny that that is a more common trait, especially if we're going with the evangelistic aspects of the religion. But type, from what I've read, isn't something that should constrain us, but make us realize strengths. Just because I'm more introverted doesn't mean I haven't made efforts to socialize: I present panels at fan conventions, which I wouldn't have dreamed of doing 10 years ago when I started going to them as a mere attendee.

The overlap of altruism and extraversion isn't unrealistic, to a certain degree. If you gain energy from interacting with others, helping them would be a bonus and encourage the same kind of recharging with more rewards overall. Just a speculation on my part.

 

[FireDragon76]

One thing to consider... you are not feeling alienated from society because of Christianity. You are feeling alienated from society because of Asperger's.

I guarantee you if you were living in a country that was primarily Buddhist, you would feel almost as alienated.

 

[muichimotsu]

One thing to consider... you are not feeling alienated from society because of Christianity. You are feeling alienated from society because of Asperger's.

I guarantee you if you were living in a country that was primarily Buddhist, you would feel almost as alienated.

Why do you think I put this here if I didn't think it was primarily because of my ASD? I contend that it's more than that, because such a simplistic approach is neglecting that society's expectations of me, especially in the South, are also creating an environment that isn't exactly welcoming to nonbelievers in Christianity or Judaism. Even Islam is regarded with a great deal of suspicion, though that's more a matter of historical events that have happened in the last 10+ years

I'm skeptical I'd feel nearly as alienated in Japan, with a majority Buddhist/Shinto/eclectic religion affiliation compared to America, where affiliation is more important than in Japan, where it's not even on the official census and isn't usually a concern, socially speaking.

 

[FireDragon76]

Formal religion is just a small part of life, even in the southern US.

Being a Catholic or other non-Baptist Christian in some parts of the south can be a bit alienating too. The issue is more complex than just making an overgeneralization.

 

[muichimotsu]

What overgeneralization was a I making? I was speaking in generalities: I know there are a decent # of people who are either actually educated or merely ignorant, but aren't willfully so.

And I was using Judaism as an example, I could just as easily bring up Sikhism being constantly, or at least more often than it should, conflated with Islam: South Carolina had something of an incident with an elected official that many seemed to not know anything about regarding her religion. Nikki Haley is who I'm referring to btw, present Governor of said state.

Formal religion wasn't strictly what I was referring to, but social expectations regarding religious affiliation. One is praxis, the other is doxa, if you will. Or perhaps ethos or norm would be more accurate.

 

[grandvizier1006]

To the op:

Assuming that I'm the one who got their raw nerve tocuhed, I want you to know that I've already forgiven you. I don't mean it in some pragmatic manner or something, and when I was reading the thread I was having one of those moments of despair and anxiety.

I assume you've been around here long enough to understand the standard Christian stance on apostasy, but I would like to say I don't think that badly of you for leaving or whatever. I guess for me, in the years in which I sort of thought I was a Christian when I really wasn't, a lot of it had to do with me being afraid to just make up a belief system as I went along. I know that must sound pathetic to you, but I genuinely enjoy the security of my faith. I couldn't make my own destiny if I tried.

You say that you don't much care for human contact, and I get how that works, but after nearly two years of being stuck at home, relatively lonely, I long for human contact, for friends, for something to take my mind off of anxiety. My ocd was never bad up until Christmas, when it was really unbearable and I was stuck thinking about stupid things.

My point is that you should never give up on people.

 

[muichimotsu]

Your apology is accepted.

I'm not sure if there's necessarily a majority opinion on apostasy, though I can imagine that the general opinion isn't to shun them, but show them your fruits of faith, hoping that things may change, which is not unreasonable. Though if we go with Calvinism, one might say I was predestined to fall away, as many are, in one form or another. I prefer to see it like that, esp. if we're talking the strict consistency in theology about God's omnipotence. It would seem it could only make complete sense and have no structural integrity issues if we are, for the most part, not able to choose our own destiny, but act in ways that align with it over time.

As for making your own destiny, the term used might be a bit strong. My notion is that there are things outside of our control, but in terms of our habits and responses to those things, we can structure our lives and even find new fulfillment in things we discover.

I wouldn't say I've given up on people, but I still maintain some degree of cynicism at the very least, people having to work very hard to actually have a sense of compassion instead of naturally possessing it. If anything, we seem to lose compassion as we grow up, though it's debatable if there's natural kindness in children all the time, but they may have an easier time comprehending the concept in a simple manner.

I'm going to play D&D with friends tomorrow, it's becoming more consistent, which is nice. And I have plans in August And November, as well as July, hopefully to be social, so I still get out from time to time.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Your apology is accepted.

I'm not sure if there's necessarily a majority opinion on apostasy, though I can imagine that the general opinion isn't to shun them, but show them your fruits of faith, hoping that things may change, which is not unreasonable. Though if we go with Calvinism, one might say I was predestined to fall away, as many are, in one form or another. I prefer to see it like that, esp. if we're talking the strict consistency in theology about God's omnipotence. It would seem it could only make complete sense and have no structural integrity issues if we are, for the most part, not able to choose our own destiny, but act in ways that align with it over time.

As for making your own destiny, the term used might be a bit strong. My notion is that there are things outside of our control, but in terms of our habits and responses to those things, we can structure our lives and even find new fulfillment in things we discover.

I wouldn't say I've given up on people, but I still maintain some degree of cynicism at the very least, people having to work very hard to actually have a sense of compassion instead of naturally possessing it. If anything, we seem to lose compassion as we grow up, though it's debatable if there's natural kindness in children all the time, but they may have an easier time comprehending the concept in a simple manner.

I'm going to play D&D with friends tomorrow, it's becoming more consistent, which is nice. And I have plans in August And November, as well as July, hopefully to be social, so I still get out from time to time.

I thought you were the one apologizing.

Actually, I was going to say what I understand to be Scriptural:namely, if you are an apostate then you were never really on board with Christianity to begin with. I don't know about being "pre-destined" to fall away, as I should point out that I'm really a fairly inexperienced Christian.

Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying. That's how my faith has helped me; I have a motivation to stop being so bitter and angry at people for, well, basically seeming better off than me.

D&D should be fun, my brother actually made friends the exact same way in his freshman year of college!

 

[muichimotsu]

I thought you were the one apologizing.

Actually, I was going to say what I understand to be Scriptural:namely, if you are an apostate then you were never really on board with Christianity to begin with. I don't know about being "pre-destined" to fall away, as I should point out that I'm really a fairly inexperienced Christian.

Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying. That's how my faith has helped me; I have a motivation to stop being so bitter and angry at people for, well, basically seeming better off than me.

D&D should be fun, my brother actually made friends the exact same way in his freshman year of college!

Your forgiveness, then?

I believe the term you should look into is "reprobate", compared to "elect"

Sad I didn't play even some D&D in college myself, but not sure there were enough people interested.

 

[FireDragon76]

In Japan, Buddhism is largely a social activity so... my guess is that you would feel alienated. Maybe not as much, but it would still be there.

I have accepted alienation as just part of my cross to bare, what I have to struggle with.

Don't try to find a solution to it, just embrace it.

GV is right too, we are still human beings, we need friends... it is just a lot more work to do.

 

[muichimotsu]

In Japan, Buddhism is largely a social activity so... my guess is that you would feel alienated. Maybe not as much, but it would still be there.

I have accepted alienation as just part of my cross to bare, what I have to struggle with.

Don't try to find a solution to it, just embrace it.

GV is right too, we are still human beings, we need friends... it is just a lot more work to do.

Japan has social conformity issues, I'm not saying it'd be perfect, I'd still have anxiety and such related to my Aspergers. Heck, it may be that Japan doesn't take those diagnoses as seriously, it may still be something they don't regrd as factual, since Japan can be a bit slow in progress at times, even with technology and science.

There's accepting alienation and resigning yourself to a modicum. I'm introverted, of course more of my time will be spent alone, but accepting alienation seems to suggest that you don't care about human interaction. Resigning myself to it is merely accepting it contextually. There are points where I will necessarily require human interaction, that's fine.

If I had to have a proverbial cross to bear, it'd be improving myself and putting in the work, not just some state of being that is immutable.

Of course we're human beings, I'm not saying I feel like a literal extraterrestrial, I feel alienated, mostly because of societal expectations, not because of my Aspergers in itself.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do care about human interaction but the alienation is not going to go away just because of human interaction, necessarily. That's part of having Asperger's... actually connecting with people is going to be harder.

There are plenty of normal, lonely people in relationships, after all. They are in bad relationships, but its still a relationship.

 

[muichimotsu]

Shouldn't healthy relationships be a desired telos, not just relationships for their own sake?

Of course meaningful bonds will be difficult, but the implication from your words seems to be to resign yourself to not trying your best

 

[FireDragon76]

Shouldn't healthy relationships be a desired telos, not just relationships for their own sake?

Of course meaningful bonds will be difficult, but the implication from your words seems to be to resign yourself to not trying your best

It means I accept no human relationship is ultimately fulfilling. In fact there is nothing unique about Asperger's in this regard, just that we with Asperger's will feel this more intensely. This doesn't mean I reject friendships, just that I do not make them the center of my life.

"Trying your best"- that's a very un-Christian way of thinking about things. There was a medieval theology called the Via Moderna that basically said God helps those who do their best; the implication being if we don't do our best, God will not help us, which is torturous logic precisely because some of us will never know if we are really doing our best. Of course the whole Protestant movement broke with that.

What's my point? Life is tragic. If you are truly alive, you'll get hurt. There is no way to intellectualize your way out of that with a sharp intellect, or moralize your way out of that with good intentions.

 

[muichimotsu]

It means I accept no human relationship is ultimately fulfilling. In fact there is nothing unique about Asperger's in this regard, just that we with Asperger's will feel this more intensely. This doesn't mean I reject friendships, just that I do not make them the center of my life.

"Trying your best"- that's a very un-Christian way of thinking about things. There was a medieval theology called the Via Moderna that basically said God helps those who do their best; the implication being if we don't do our best, God will not help us, which is torturous logic precisely because some of us will never know if we are really doing our best. Of course the whole Protestant movement broke with that.

What's my point? Life is tragic. If you are truly alive, you'll get hurt. There is no way to intellectualize your way out of that with a sharp intellect, or moralize your way out of that with good intentions.

I feel fulfillment through my friendships, even if it's not perfect fulfillment. I've grown to appreciate and involve myself in things I wouldn't have probably done otherwise on my own.

Who said anything about making friendships the center of my life? They're certainly a part of it, but I favor self improvement myself in terms of a prime value

Isn't the point of Christianity a mix of accepting God's grace and trying to improve yourself, or is that more heretical than I'm aware of? To be fair, the general gist I get is that our efforts mean nothing, so I suppose it would lean towards "God is prime and humans are merely a means to the end" in practical terms, even if it's not entirely implied by that in execution of agape.


To say people shouldn't seek out goals because of God's grace seems counterproductive to the idea of works and faith balancing together.

I never said life was perfect, you seem to be creating a strawman here of what my position is. I never said getting hurt was a bad thing or that you should avoid it. You're really reading into this based on your presumptions about me instead of being inquisitive about my specific circumstances and views in regards to those topics.

As someone strongly influenced by Buddhism, I fully acknowledge suffering is a part of life and that any attempts to soften the blow are unrealistic, which, in a technical way, includes Christianity saying that suffering is just a way to improve oneself or strength faith more specifically by imitating Jesus and valuing that martyrdom and sense of being a pariah.