Arkansas Couple Has 17th Child, Still Want More

[HazyRigby]

1. We are not talking about the mentally ill, nor the handicapped, nor little children not old enough to work.

We aren't? (I didn't say that children needed to work, by the way.) They aren't people? You said:

Any person who bothers to get educated or learn a trade, and then works hard and saves his money, can be rich if he so chooses.

(my emphasis)

So are they not people, or were you wrong?

2. Every citizen in America can get an education loan.

So massive debt is preferable?

3. Immigrants dont stay in minimum wage jobs, why should anyone else stay in minimum wage jobs.

Do you have any proof of your claims?

And perhaps because those people are uneducated and unskilled?

4. Millions of people are millionaires, they didnt get that way by taking and staying in minimum wage jobs their entire lives. No one is forced to stay in a minimum wage job.

So what you said in your post above is that there are 5.8 million millionaires in the United States (that's about 2% of the population). There are currently 39 million people living below the poverty line (that's 13%; source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States). So if it's so easy to be wealthy in America, why are more people struggling to get enough food than are well-off? FYI, the poverty line in the continental U.S. for a family of four is $20,000. I make substantially more than that, am very well-educated, live alone, and still struggle to make ends meet. How do you suggest that a family of four develops that money into millions?

That Wikipedia article also goes on to note that approximately 11% of American households are food insecure, meaning that the members at some point did not have access to enough food to maintain an active, healthy life. 11%. Do you even get how incredibly glib and nonsensical your comments are about millionaires in America? 11% of people, at some point this year, will not know where their next meal is coming from.

5. Why would I want a minimum wage job?

Oh, I don't know. To gain a little perspective and perhaps (gasp!) empathy?

6. If you cant stop long enough from your minimum wage job to get educated, that means that you are working 112 hours per week with only time left for sleep. If you cant cut back to 100 hours per week with 12 hours per week to educate yourself or to find another job, then you arent doing something right.

Well, that's just silly. If you're working a minimum-wage job, there are things that become much more likely in your life, circumstances such as:

*You might not have reliable transportation, meaning that taking the bus might be a necessity. If you're not living close to work (where all the expensive housing is, mind you), you're commuting far.
*If you have children, you can't afford reliable child care, and a babysitter is a luxury. You would also like to spend time with your children.
*Lack of education, meaning that it might be more difficult for you (for example) to navigate a library to find out how school loans work.
*Living in high-crime areas.
*Enduring social stigma.
*Illness due to unaddressed medical problems, stress, or poor nutrition.
*Large amounts of debt, especially due to medical bills.
*Lack of energy (many low-income jobs require physical labor).

And with those factors alone, you still believe that the poor should have the mental and physical stamina left to go to school and apply for loans?

7. Why would anyone with a only minimum wage job and no time at all to better himself ever again want to start a family?

Sometimes babies just happen, and unless you support abortion, I'd suggest you reconsider your position.

I personally dont know anyone who wants a family and also only wants a minimum wage job for their entire lives.

Do you know anyone who wants a minimum wage job at all?


It seems to me that you're dangerously out of touch with the America we live in. Your facile answers and snide, snarky remarks only prove the shallowness of your argument; you see America as a land of endless opportunity. Perhaps for those of us who grew up with adequate schooling, nutrition, and social support, it is. But to those people who live at the edges of our society—the crop-pickers, the hotel maids, and the like—America is a land of endless struggle, where one illness and a resulting trip to the emergency room can result in financial disaster, stress, and most of all, a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness in the face of daunting poverty. To dismiss those people is, I believe, a total rejection of what your religion is supposed to stand for. "What would Jesus do" indeed.

And by the way, since you said that it's so EASY to become a millionaire, I guess your next move is to tell us all how you did it.

 

[susanann]

1. No one wants to stay in a mininum wage job..but you know we will always need people in those jobs. Also in some places the job market is just AWFUL. For instance anyone live in Michigan? unemployment is INSANE there. My mom lost her job and had to search for nearly 2 years to find one..that right now I think is still on a trial basis sort of thingy. And my mom is a very hard worker with plenty of experience. My Dad currently has work until the end of the year I think..as far as I know after that it;s all up in the air if he will have a job even.



2. Oh and some people do work 100 hours per week to survive..my husband once worked 72 hours without stopping once.


3. But really I donlt think time is so much the issue in some cases..its money. Loan;s only cover soo much and have to be repaid. Not to mention the cost to get to school adds up especially if it is a long ways away or if you can;t find anyone to carpool with. But seriuosly you REALLY need to read up on this stuff more..your claims make NO sense at all sorry.

1. That doesnt make sense. 50,000 immigrants come here each and every week, and they all get jobs very quickly, and none of them stay in minimum wage jobs very long. We dont even have 50,000 minimum wage jobs opening up each week for the immigrants. The job market cant be awful if 50,000 immigrants, many of which dont even speak english, find the jobs every where they go.


2. 72 hours is not 112 hours. Even so, there is plenty of time left after 72 hours, even if it was every week, to study and learn a new trade, or to spend the time to get a better job.


3. As far as education, not only are loans available to every citizen, but our libraries are free, and so are the college libraries, and so are internet computers at libraries. Anyone can learn anything in America if they get off the couch.


4. Jim Duggin, the father of the 17 children, besides being a real estate agent, besides building his own home, also teaches financial independence - sounds like you or your parents could learn something from him besides baby making.

 

[naotmaa]

Exactly what if the father dies? from what it seems like he is the main finical support for the family. Also the lack of individual attention is concerning too. I hear for instance at 6 monthes a baby is basically pasted onto an older sibling and they more or less becomes it;s mini parent. I dontl have an issue with people havving big families..but dontl have so many you basically get to the point where you have no choice but to turn kids into parents.

definitely agree. If the father dies, I would think the mother would have an impossible time getting enough money to support all of her kids as well as other living expenses. They most likely wouldn't be able to afford a big enough house anymore. If both parents die, then all of the kids would most likely have to be split up. I think parents need to think about the ''what if's'' of a situation. What if a parent or both die? What if the father looses his job? What will happen to their kids? If they can't come up with a good solution to any of these situations, then they should seriously reconsider how many kids they should have.

 

[susanann]

1. So what you said in your post above is that there are 5.8 million millionaires in the United States (that's about 2% of the population). There are currently 39 million people living below the poverty line (that's 13%; So if it's so easy to be wealthy in America, why are more people struggling



2. I make substantially more than that, am very well-educated, live alone, and still struggle to make ends meet.


3. And by the way, since you said that it's so EASY to become a millionaire, I guess your next move is to tell us all how you did it.

1. I didnt say it was "easy", nor that most people even
"want" to be rich. I said, anyone can if they want to. The fact is, that only 6 million people really want to be millionaires - most other people want to buy toys, newer bigger cars than they need, excess clothes, electronic dodads, nice restaurants, amusement parks, and a thousand other ways to waste their money.


2. If you make substantially more than that, and you are still struggling, then you are living beyond your means, and you could really need to attend one of Jim Duggins ( the father of the 17 kids) Financial Freedom Seminars.


3. I already have made all the money I will ever need or want.

 

[susanann]

Originally Posted by Calliso
Exactly what if the father dies? from what it seems like he is the main finical support for the family.

definitely agree. If the father dies, I would think the mother would have an impossible time getting enough money to support all of her kids as well as other living expenses. They most likely wouldn't be able to afford a big enough house anymore.

Michelle Duggin, the mother of the 17 children, is also a real estate agent, the same job that her husband has, and she is quite capable of maintaining the same income if need be. She also is quite familiar with her husbands Financial Freedom Seminars, and she knows how to make, invest, and handle money. I dont know how much savings they have, but since they pay cash for everything, and have no debt, I dont see a problem.

Furthermore, Jim Duggin has been paying social security payments, which include survivors benefits. I dont know what other insurance they might have, but part of the social security taxes that he pays every year, includes survivor benefits if he should die young.

If Jim were to die, she could easily afford to keep her home. Their home is paid for!!!!! - they have no debt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[naotmaa]

Originally Posted by Calliso
Exactly what if the father dies? from what it seems like he is the main finical support for the family.



Michelle Duggin, the mother of the 17 children, is also a real estate agent, the same job that her husband has, and she is quite capable of maintaining the same income if need be. She also is quite familiar with her husbands Financial Freedom Seminars, and she knows how to make, invest, and handle money. I dont know how much savings they have, but since they pay cash for everything, and have no debt, I dont see a problem.

Furthermore, Jim Duggin has been paying social security payments, which include survivors benefits. I dont know what other insurance they might have, but part of the social security taxes that he pays every year, includes survivor benefits if he should die young.

If Jim were to die, she could easily afford to keep her home. Their home is paid for!!!!! - they have no debt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Hi there.
I wasn't actually talking about the Arkansas family, just in general. it is good that they have that covered though. Although it doesn't cover the other issues that I mentioned.

 

[Reptoid]

Real estate is unlimited.


We added 100 million more people in the past 30 years.

We are going to have 400 million people living here by 2050, and a billion by the end of the century.

They all want houses.

Easist way to get rich for the next 100 years, is in real estate.

Real Estate is not unlimited as resources on Earth are limited. Only so much land and water exists to sustain a human population. I'm surprised there haven't been many people talking about how this family with 17 kids supports a lifestyle which would murder the Earth with over-population if everyone chose it. One child is enough and I wish someone would start a massive propaganda campaign to encourage people to have only one child.

 

[HazyRigby]

1. I didnt say it was "easy", nor that most people even
"want" to be rich. I said, anyone can if they want to.

Ah. And yet, you've failed to provide even one small shred of evidence for this claim that you've made several times. I provide you a whole post full of statistics showing you how difficult it is for some in this country, and still you stick to your untruth.

2. If you make substantially more than that, and you are still struggling, then you are living beyond your means . . .

I'm not living beyond my means. I have a studio apartment. My car is almost paid off. I live pretty much debt-free. I don't own a television, so I don't have a cable bill. My only bills beyond my rent and car are my electricity, my phone, and my internet.

I don't buy expensive food; I don't eat out much; my favorite things to do are hiking and reading.

The problem is that I live in an expensive part of the country. I chose to live here; if I wanted to live less expensively, I could choose to live elsewhere. But some people have neither the means nor the ability to make that choice.

. . . and you could really need to attend one of Jim Duggins ( the father of the 17 kids) Financial Freedom Seminars.

Pardon me, but if that guy can't bother to restrain himself from having more children than he and his wife can handle without assistance from his other children, then I don't think I can learn much about financial restraint from him.

3. I already have made all the money I will ever need or want.

Translation: "I am not a millionaire, though I claim that everyone can be."

 

[susanann]

Hi there.
I wasn't actually talking about the Arkansas family, just in general. it is good that they have that covered though. Although it doesn't cover the other issues that I mentioned.

Anyone who is in the Social Security System, is paying for survivor insurance. All such families with kids have the same federal life insurance. Each child is entitled to a benefit. It might surprise you how much money and family with children would actually get if the father dies - its quite a bit more than I ever thought.

In the case of the Duggins, each of the 17 children would be entitled to benefits. Perhaps, the total of all 17 survivors insurance benefits, Michelle Duggin's children would end up with even more income than Jim provided when he was alive.

 

[PassionFruit]

Do you really think that is all she does? ..........just lie in bed all day for 9 months at a time and then go back to bed again for another 9 months?

A pregnant woman is not an invalid who does absolutely nothing else while being pregnant.

Your statement is as silly as saying that the only "purpose" of every non-pregnant woman is only to prevent pregnancy.

You missed my point entirely. I would speak with you further, but judging from some of the posts you made in this thread you seem to be clueless.

 

[HazyRigby]

An aside: Why is it so difficult for some to believe that others have it so much more impossibly hard than they?

Is it snobbery? Avoidance of the truth? What?

 

[naotmaa]

Anyone who is in the Social Security System, is paying for survivor insurance. All such families with kids have the same federal life insurance. It might surprise you how much money and family with children would actually get if the father dies - its quite a bit more than I ever thought.

Alrighty, that still doesn't cover the other issues that I mentioned. The kids are still most likely to be split up if both parents die. The kids are still most likely not going to get all the attention that is needed. And, speaking in general terms, what if the father looses his job? What if any type of financial misfortune happens to a family of this size? Loosing jobs, finacial scams,whatever, can happen to anyone even if they are careful. But if it happens to a family that is espically large, the results can be absolutely devestating. as I said before, parents need to think about what can happen if they bring that many kids into the world.

 

[susanann]

Alrighty, that still doesn't cover the other issues that I mentioned. The kids are still most likely to be split up if both parents die. The kids are still most likely not going to get all the attention that is needed. And, speaking in general terms, what if the father looses his job? What if any type of financial misfortune happens to a family of this size? Loosing jobs, finacial scams,whatever, can happen to anyone even if they are careful. But if it happens to a family that is espically large, the results can be absolutely devestating. as I said before, parents need to think about what can happen if they bring that many kids into the world.

1. He is not going to lose his job, he is a real estate agent, as long as people keep dying and 50,000 more immigrants keep moving here every week, he has a ton of work for the rest of his life.


2. Why would the kids split up? Social Security survivor insurance benefits will more than pay for his lost income, and Michelle will have even MORE time to spend with the children, since she will not have to give any time to Jim anymore. The larger the family, the more the social security survivor benefits - multiply $2000 per month per child. Families with large amounts of children will be much better off than small families with just one or two children.


3. Jim is not going to be a victim of financial scams, he is also a financial advisor, he teaches financial responsibility, and he has no debt, no house payment, etc.


4. As far as anybody else, they are still covered by social security survivors insurance, everyone is capable of living by the same financial principles of Jim with no debt, and America has so many unfilled jobs that we have to import 50,000 more immigrants/workers each and every week just to keep our companies in business.

 

[naotmaa]

1. He is not going to lose his job, he is a real estate agent, as long as people keep dying and 50,000 more immigrants keep moving here every week, he has a ton of work for the rest of his life.


2. Why would the kids split up? Social Security survivor insurance benefits will more than pay for his lost income, and Michelle will have even MORE time to spend with the children, since she will not have to give any time to Jim anymore. The larger the family, the more the social security survivor benefits - multiply $2000 per month per child. Families with large amounts of children will be much better off than small families with just one or two children.


3. Jim is not going to be a victim of financial scams, he is also a financial advisor, he teaches financial responsibility, and he has no debt, no house payment, etc.


4. As far as anybody else, they are still covered by social security survivors insurance, everyone is capable of living by the same financial principles of Jim with no debt, and America has so many unfilled jobs that we have to import 50,000 more immigrants/workers each and every week just to keep our companies in business.

Okay, When I wrote "speaking in general terms" I meant about ANY family not the Arkansas family. You still haven't addressed what would happen if both parents died. You still haven't addressed all children needing equal attention. Do you honestly believe that it is wise to bring that many kids into the world when these things can happen? No matter how careful you are, no matter how savy you are with your money, things can go wrong. Life doesn't always go as planned. You have to think responsibly about these things.

 

[Calliso]

An aside: Why is it so difficult for some to believe that others have it so much more impossibly hard than they?

Is it snobbery? Avoidance of the truth? What?

From reading her posts I think it;s a little bit of both. She seems to be both in denial..and she also seems to think that SHE knows all the answers at the same time. The funny thing is she keeps asking others to prove their claims..we can prove many of our claims just by using common sense. Many of hers require us to steer around common sense. it seems.

 

[Calliso]

Okay, When I wrote "speaking in general terms" I meant about ANY family not the Arkansas family. You still haven't addressed what would happen if both parents died. You still haven't addressed all children needing equal attention. Do you honestly believe that it is wise to bring that many kids into the world when these things can happen? No matter how careful you are, no matter how savy you are with your money, things can go wrong. Life doesn't always go as planned. You have to think responsibly about these things.

Exactly!

 

[Calliso]

1. That doesnt make sense. 50,000 immigrants come here each and every week, and they all get jobs very quickly, and none of them stay in minimum wage jobs very long. We dont even have 50,000 minimum wage jobs opening up each week for the immigrants. The job market cant be awful if 50,000 immigrants, many of which dont even speak english, find the jobs every where they go.


2. 72 hours is not 112 hours. Even so, there is plenty of time left after 72 hours, even if it was every week, to study and learn a new trade, or to spend the time to get a better job.


3. As far as education, not only are loans available to every citizen, but our libraries are free, and so are the college libraries, and so are internet computers at libraries. Anyone can learn anything in America if they get off the couch.


4. Jim Duggin, the father of the 17 children, besides being a real estate agent, besides building his own home, also teaches financial independence - sounds like you or your parents could learn something from him besides baby making.

1. note I said in Michigan..not EVERYWHERE, it;s not that good down here in Georgia either. Also most of what the immigrants are taking is basically minimum wage or less then minimum wage jobs. In fact they take many jobs AWAY from legal American citizans...but this topic isn;t a rant about how illegal immigrants are hurting our country..so I will stop there...Also I seriously DOUBT everyone of those immigrants finds a job immediately. Please show some supported evidence other then your own words that support your claim that ALL these immigrants easily find jobs where ever they go.

2. Your right..read Hazy Rigby;s newer post she addresses why it just isn;t as simple as that. You seem to be living in a different world from the rest of us. Maybe you should spend some time with a family in poverty. Learn what their lives are actually like cause you seem to have no clue.

3. Like Hazy basically said..so now the best option is to go into massive debt? Also like she pointed out.many of these people will have had little education before hand. Will they know how to navigate the internet to know how to find what they are looking for? What about the library? Not to mention..if they already have a long commute to work..there is a good chance they would have a long commute to a library or college even. Also I am not sure..but aren;t a lot of colleges not open for public use as well?


4. My mom is doing fine thank you very much..thanks to her hard work and dedication..she is most likely going to get a job with microsoft. My dad while he may be out of work for awhile I am sure can make do as well. And I admit I can;t even be sure if he will be out of work. He works in the construction business by the way he is a construction manager. Heck he may even decide to move if it comes to it..but my stepmom has a daughter that in a couple years or so will be in college so I think he is waiting till then. My sister does well as well as a massage therpist..and she is in nurse school as well.

Me and my husband do just fine as well. He has a good paying job..and is currently looking for a better one. My job isn;t nearly as great but it still helps out with stuff. Heck we could live on just his pay, if we really wanted to.

But the thing is...both my parents and my husband were fairly well educated... so that already puts them a HUGE step ahead of many people who have lived in poverty their whole lives and could never afford a proper education. And yes I realize there is public schools throguh highschool...but TRUST me...some of these schools are so bad..they might as well not go to school for all the good it;s doing them.

 

[susanann]

1. You still haven't addressed what would happen if both parents died.


2. You still haven't addressed all children needing equal attention.


3. Do you honestly believe that it is wise to bring that many kids into the world when these things can happen?


4. No matter how careful you are, no matter how savy you are with your money, things can go wrong. Life doesn't always go as planned. You have to think responsibly about these things.

1. If both parents die, it would be emotionally bad for any child, whether there be 1 child, or 13. Why would anyone think kids would not be affected if both of their parents would die?
What is your point? .....that nobody should ever have any kids because any parent could die?


2. All children dont need nor want equal attention. I seriously doubt that the Duggin's 17 year old teenager wants his mama hanging around him and following him all of the time. Besides, I have seen too many kids from 1 or 2 child households who either didnt get any attention or got harmful attention. From all appearances, these kids are well adjusted, clean, sociable, and not complaining. None!!!! of these 17 children have criminal records.

3. IF you believe that kids should not be brought up in this world where bad things can happen, then the number of kids is irrelevent - dont have any kids.


4. You seem to think that permanent financial hardships are based soley on chance - it isnt.

People who save, who invest wisely, who dont go into debt, who learn a profitable trade that will last a lifetime, who has a second source of income, where both parents can have well paid jobs if they both choose to work, who buy insurance, etc. will rarely, if ever, be permanently doomed to poverty. It just doesnt happen.

The people who are struggling, who get permanently dumped on, are those who did not save, who chose to get into debt, who buy on credit, who did not learn a job that lasts forever, who did not get insurance, who did not save but wasted their money, etc. People who speed and drive without a seat belt and without insurance, get hurt more often.

It is a choice to be safe and secure - not a random chance.

If you spend all your money and go into debt and dont have a steady dependable job that will last a lifetime, that is your choice, and it is those people who are surprised when it rains.

People who live wisely, make their own "luck", and it doesnt matter how many kids they have.

 

[susanann]

1. note I said in Michigan..not EVERYWHERE, it;s not that good down here in Georgia either. Also most of what the immigrants are taking is basically minimum wage or less then minimum wage jobs. In fact they take many jobs AWAY from legal American citizans...but this topic isn;t a rant about how illegal immigrants are hurting our country..so I will stop there...Also I seriously DOUBT everyone of those immigrants finds a job immediately. Please show some supported evidence other then your own words that support your claim that ALL these immigrants easily find jobs where ever they go.

First of all, there are jobs everywhere - the immigrants are moving into every state, not just California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Florida.

Second, even if there were no jobs in Michigan or Georgia, no one is forced to stay in the same state forever. Some states are literally begging for workers like Wyoming.

Third, new immigrants HAVE to find jobs right away because they have no unemployment insurance to tide them over. Also, they know if they dont get a job the first week that they are here, then next week they will have to compete against 50,000 other new immigrants who will get those jobs. If they wait 2 weeks to find a job, they will have to compete against 100,000 other new immigrants, and it just gets harder with each week that goes by with no money to live on in the meantime.

IF new immigrants were not getting jobs, then unemployment and welfare would be skyrocketing with millons more unemployed people being added to the welfare and unemployment roles each and every year. 100 millon immigrants have come here since about 1970, and we dont have 100 million people unemployed. If substantial numbers of the millions of new immigrants are unemployed, where are they? If they are only getting minimum wage jobs, who???? is creating a hundred million minimum wage jobs? Exactly what companies are hiring 50,000 more additional minimum wage immigrants each and every week? The immigrants are not getting minimum wage jobs, because we simply just dont have that many minimum wage jobs. If you try to claim that immigrants are getting minimum wage jobs, something that does not exist, then you have to show that those jobs actually exist somewhere.


The "evidence" is that we do not see additional millions of new immigrants sitting around starving on our streets. It doesnt exist.

If something does not exist, like 50,000 more people/immigrants becoming unemployed in our society each week, then there is nothing to show since it isnt there. If you try to claim that something that does not exist does exist, it is up to you to show that something actually exists.

Where are all these millions of unemployed immigrants?

 

[naotmaa]

1. If both parents die, it would be emotionally bad for any child, whether there be 1 child, or 13. Why would anyone think kids would not be affected if both of their parents would die?
What is your point? .....that nobody should ever have any kids because any parent could die?

I wasn't even talking about the emotional affect. Thats obvious. I was talking about the fact in a family that has a double digit number children, it would be very hard to keep them together. Although a few family members may take a couple of them in, i doubt they would take all. That means these kids would most likely be put in foster homes.

2. All children dont need nor want equal attention. I seriously doubt that the Duggin's 17 year old teenager wants his mama hanging around him and following him all of the time. Besides, I have seen too many kids from 1 or 2 child households who either didnt get any attention or got harmful attention. From all appearances, these kids are well adjusted, clean, sociable, and not complaining. None!!!! of these 17 children have criminal records.

The Duggins do NOT represent every family with a large amount a children. Especially when a lot of the children are still young. Children, need attention when growing up.When kids are young, if they see another sibling getting more attention, they may confuse that with that sibling being the favorite. thats just one issue that can arise. Even if a child may not seem to want/need attention, its good that the parent atleast has the time for all of their children. Each child needs to have a good relationship with their parents. This would be hard in such a large family. I'm not saying it can't happen but it would be difficult.

3. IF you believe that kids should not be brought up in this world where bad things can happen, then the number of kids is irrelevent - dont have any kids.

No. It does have to do with the number of children. Obviously many things can go wrong but I was talking about the things that could devestate a family of such a big size. If a father of two children looses his job, I'm guessing they could get by. But if this happened to a family of 17, it would be bad. Look, I'm just thinking of events that were beyond our control that happened to my family and others which did a number on us financially. I can't imagine what would happen to family with a large amount of children.

4. You seem to think that permanent financial hardships are based soley on chance - it isnt.

No I don't. But you seem to think that every person who works hard and trys to do everything right, finanicially, are just 100% great for the rest of their lives. Nothing can touch them. But people make mistakes. Everyone has. No one is perfect. Not everyone has the knowledge of how to handle money like Jim Duggin has.

People who save, who invest wisely, who dont go into debt, who learn a profitable trade that will last a lifetime, who has a second source of income, where both parents can have well paid jobs if they both choose to work, who buy insurance, etc. will rarely, if ever, be permanently doomed to poverty. It just doesnt happen.

Like I said before, you can't foresee what happens in your life.

The people who are struggling, who get permanently dumped on, are those who did not save, who chose to get into debt, who buy on credit, who did not learn a job that lasts forever, who did not get insurance, who did not save but wasted their money, etc. People who speed and drive without a seat belt and without insurance, get hurt more often.

Okay. wait. Like I said before things can go wrong even if you do everything right. Not just finanacially. Come on. You should know this.

It is a choice to be safe and secure - not a random chance.

Obviously, a good choice and not a random chance. The random chance is when things go wrong. Illnesses, businesses going under, etc. There are many things that can go wrong.

If you spend all your money and go into debt and dont have a steady dependable job that will last a lifetime, that is your choice, and it is those people who are surprised when it rains.

Not what I'm arguing here.

People who live wisely, make their own "luck", and it doesnt matter how many kids they have.

Sorry but you can't make your own luck in life.

look, your opinion on finanicial stablity is very clear. If you do good you'll get rewarded, do bad not rewarded. But obviously the world isn't this black and white.