Are you elect and how do you know that you are?

[Albion]

Sorry if anything I say isn't clear enough.

There are many verses to show it is wrong to be presumptuous.

OK

The Lord reserves the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, especially those who walk according to the flesh showing the fruit thereof, who are presumptuous with being self-willed (2 Peter 2). And see Jude verse 4. The one who presumes he is in good standing is not forgiven (Luke 18). So do not presume a position because of who you are (Matthew 3 verses 8-9). Not all saying Lord for speaking of Jesus enter into the kingdom of Heaven, see Matthew 7 verse 21.

Right.

There are more verses speaking to such, these were some for that. The point is that the focus on being of the elect is useless, it is important to come to Christ and be saved, turning from life of sin.

I agree.

Only with that is there the assurance of the elect that is revealed. So those of Calvinists who focus so much on being elect are not helpful where salvation is needed.

Wherever did you get that idea? All the Calvinists I know would immediately point out that the fact of God having his Elect is a Bible truth...but that none of them can know with certainty if they are among the Elect. The main group bringing up the subject all the time clearly is the opposition to the idea of Election, not those who believe it to be true.

Who, for example, started this thread asking that very question? Not a Calvinist. Not a believer in Election or Predestination.

 

[Rick Otto]

I would quibble that we can know whom we love with at least enough certainty to cope with our ontological uncertainties.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is being among the elect the same as loving God?

Many a couple divorce but swear that they once loved one another.

Could that not be how some love God?

 

[Rick Otto]

Is being among the elect the same as loving God?

Many a couple divorce but swear that they once loved one another.

Could that not be how some love God?

Being in a loving relationship does not mean there won't be any problems.
Sort of like Jesus being killed did not mean He was defeated.
Ephesus 1:4 explains being elect means God chose whom He would save, before He created.
So, yes it means one loves God, however imperfectly.

 

[Albion]

Is being among the elect the same as loving God?

No. It's the same as "having been saved."

Many a couple divorce but swear that they once loved one another.

Could that not be how some love God?

I'd say so. However, that's not related to being among the Elect, either.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Being in a loving relationship does not mean there won't be any problems.
Sort of like Jesus being killed did not mean He was defeated.
Ephesus 1:4 explains being elect means God chose whom He would save, before He created.
So, yes it means one loves God, however imperfectly.

No. It's the same as "having been saved."



I'd say so. However, that's not related to being among the Elect, either.

Okay, so how does one know one is among the elect?

 

[Rick Otto]

Okay, so how does one know one is among the elect?

To answer, I would first have to know how you understand how one knows anything at all.

 

[Albion]

Okay, so how does one know one is among the elect?

One doesn't.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One doesn't.

Okay, then the thread is complete, right?

 

[MoreCoffee]

To answer, I would first have to know how you understand how one knows anything at all.

Let's not try epistemology ...

Albion says one doesn't know.

 

[Albion]

Okay, then the thread is complete, right?

In the sense of you having the answer to your questions, yes, it has long been completed. But the way you asked them invited people to tell you why they think they are among the Elect, so it probably is nowhere near done.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the sense of you having the answer to your questions, yes, it has long been completed. But the way you asked them invited people to tell you why they think they are among the Elect, so it probably is nowhere near done.

Okay, carry on.

By the way, do you know if you are among the elect?

 

[Rick Otto]

Let's not try epistemology ...

Albion says one doesn't know.

I think St John disagrees.
I don't think there will be a divorce over it, though.

 

[Albion]

I think St John disagrees.

No, he didn't. At least, I don't think that's the way to look at it. John says that he who believes has eternal life and, again, he who 'has' the Son has eternal life and that he wants us to know this. However, this doesn't prove, absolutely, who has it. We may trust, and we may feel assured, and we may point to those indicators of the ones who are the Elect (which has always been done by Christians), but there still remains the question of being "sure."

 

[Rick Otto]

No, he didn't. At least, I don't think that's the way to look at it. John says that he who believes has eternal life and, again, he who 'has' the Son has eternal life and that he wants us to know this. However, this doesn't prove, absolutely, who has it. We may trust, and we may feel assured, and we may point to those indicators of the ones who are the Elect (which has always been done by Christians), but there still remains the question of being "sure."

Ok. I always inituited that "absolute certainty" simply meant recurrent doubt is simpy in remission.

 

[FredVB]

All the Calvinists I know would immediately point out that the fact of God having his Elect is a Bible truth...but that none of them can know with certainty if they are among the Elect.

Election is a biblical term, and I think I have the right understanding of it. But why would such believing it, as that should be with understanding the gospel, with which to be saved, not know if they are among the elect? This suggests attention on whether one is among the elect can be in the way of taking a sure step to Christ coming to salvation.

 

[hedrick]

The concept behind Reformation theology, whether Calvinist or Lutheran, is that our confidence is in God and his promises to us. Those promises say that he loves us and will save anyone who asks.

Anything that causes us to look to ourselves for salvation is a mistake. Asking whether we are elect is such a trap, because it focuses our attention on us rather than God. Any answer we give us bad, because every one directs us to some aspect of ourselves. But our confidence should be in God.

I don’t believe election was intended to be used that way. It was intended to give people confidence that God is in control, and we can be sure that everything that happens is intended to help us. As it applies to ourselves it’s intended to direct us away from our works to God’s promises. We’re God’s simply because he has called us. But we don’t need to and shouldn’t check whether we’re elect before we respond to his call.

I think there are some issues with the way Calvin presents election. The late John Leith maintained that in the Institutes Calvin tended to get sidetracked into a speculative treatment of election, but that you can see in his commentaries that this wasn’t really how he intended election to be used.



This is a danger in every theological system. Calvinists at times (though not universally) got side-tracked into developing tests for whether you were probably elect. Catholics at times turned baptism into magic. Arminians have other problems. I’m afraid no system is going to fix this problem. Instead we have to keep pointing people at Christ and away from anything about themselves.

Of course Jesus was also clear that God had expectations of his people, and that if we claim to be trusting God but aren’t helping our neighbor we’re in trouble. But still, everything was built on the Father’s love of and commitment to us.

 

[Rick Otto]

I agree,... the question is a trap.

 

[FredVB]

Systems are not going to fix problems that are in their own make-up, there shouldn't be faith put in them as such, but there are a great number of believers that are living in faith, in Christ, as they should without being side-tracked by abberant thinking. With it real there is evidence outwardly, for other believers to recognize them as such, and their own security, with the change and growth spiritually and so being sealed seen. There are spiritual works then and some greater morality in living that should be expected, still generally among believers there should be even more love, compassion, and peacemaking, as there was as it was recorded in the very early Christian church.

 

[Optimax]

Those of the "elect" are also called.

The calling occurs when a person hears the message about Jesus.

When a person "answers" that call and is born again (Rom 10:9).

They are then "chosen".

Many are called (hear the gospel message).

Few are chosen (receive the gospel message and are born again (Rom 10:9).

The "chosen" and the "elect" are the same.

I know am among the "elect" because I was born again (Rom 10:9).