Are we obligated to inform new believers about potentially losing their newly acquired salvation?

[bottomofsandal]

Is this conversation immediately after baptism? When?

When do we drop the bombshell that salvation has an expiration date?

This gift of God that you just received can be lost, cancelled, or revoked?

 

[Greg J.]

It would be inappropriate to introduce any new Christian to any controversial Christian belief. It would be self-serving and not what is best for them—they have no way to understand or judge such issues. In the context where there is an enormous amount to learn ahead of them, slapping them with any issue that could cause them to turn away from God borders on evil, except when it is a core truth which must be accepted to be Christian, but even in that case it is something to explain, not something to batter them with.

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10, 1984 NIV)

Sticking with the core truths and ensuring that someone is responsible for guiding them into discipleship of Jesus is what is necessary (Matthew 28:19-20). In this day and age anything directing them into discipleship will make most people uncomfortable, but it is absolutely your responsibility to try (Matthew 13:3-8)

 

[bottomofsandal]

It would be inappropriate to introduce any new Christian to any controversial Christian belief. It would be self-serving and not what is best for them—they have no way to understand or judge such issues. In the context where there is an enormous amount to learn ahead of them, slapping them with any issue that could cause them to turn away from God borders on evil, except when it is a core truth which must be accepted to be Christian, but even in that case it is something to explain, not something to batter them with.

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10, 1984 NIV)

Sticking with the core truths and ensuring that someone is responsible for guiding them into discipleship of Jesus is what is necessary (Matthew 28:19-20). In this day and age anything directing them into discipleship will make most people uncomfortable, but it is absolutely your responsibility to try (Matthew 13:3-8)

Certainly those who believe in OSAS would share that pre-salvation.

Isn't withholding any doctrine, whether true or not wrong?

The fear of eternal condemnation would be addressed pre-salvation anyway.

 

[Greg J.]

It is a sin to put a stumbling block in anyone's way. I explained why it is a stumbling block.

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. (Romans 14:20, 1984 NIV)

If you want to warn them somehow that they need to not go into Christian cruise control (which causes slow backsliding assuming they are saved in the first place), then explain the gospel more fully.

 

[bottomofsandal]

It is a sin to put a stumbling block in anyone's way. I explained why it is a stumbling block.

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. (Romans 14:20, 1984 NIV)

If you want to warn them somehow that they need to not go into Christian cruise control (which causes slow backsliding assuming they are saved in the first place), then explain the gospel more fully.

It would be inappropriate to introduce any new Christian to any controversial Christian belief. It would be self-serving and not what is best for them—they have no way to understand or judge such issues. In the context where there is an enormous amount to learn ahead of them, slapping them with any issue that could cause them to turn away from God borders on evil, except when it is a core truth which must be accepted to be Christian, but even in that case it is something to explain, not something to batter them with.

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10, 1984 NIV)

Sticking with the core truths and ensuring that someone is responsible for guiding them into discipleship of Jesus is what is necessary (Matthew 28:19-20). In this day and age anything directing them into discipleship will make most people uncomfortable, but it is absolutely your responsibility to try (Matthew 13:3-8)

So, the truth is a stumbling block?
Wouldn't this be a core truth?...losing your salvation
If there is not a doctrine of OSAS, it is imperative the convert be told!


If someone subscribes to losing salvation, they are compelled, it is their duty to warn the new believer that if this newbie sins and dies in their sin...big problem. How callous and thoughtless of the non-OSAS deacon, elder, preacher, or revival evangelist to not warn the new Christian about the perils of potentially losing this newly acquired gift of salvation.

 

[Greg J.]

The fact that it is controversial means that a new believer could be told contradictory things, which could shake whatever faith he had, regardless of what a person's stance on OSAS was. On top of that, telling a new Christian that he can't lose his salvation would be motivation for him to do whatever wants, which is a path away from Jesus. Telling him he could lose his salvation is a scare tactic which is a great way to lead him into legalism, which is also a path away from Jesus.

The root of the core is connecting with Jesus Christ himself. Everything we say and do should be to accomplish that. If he obeys that command from God, then OSAS is irrelevant for him as a new Christian. It is only important to people who want to do the minimum to be saved, which means, they don't have the heart for God that we are commanded to, and may not be saved.

Satan frequently uses the truth to be a stumbling block. Understanding something is not a license to cast it about without regard to the consequences.

 

[bling]

Is this conversation immediately after baptism? When?

When do we drop the bombshell that salvation has an expiration date?

This gift of God that you just received can be lost, cancelled, or revoked?

It needs to be explained as the Bible describes it as our inheritance, something we possess now as a birthright. This birthright cannot be lost, stolen, taken back by God even, deserved or paid back, but since you are now the soul owner of this birthright you can give it away.

 

[Greg J.]

It needs to be explained as the Bible describes it as our inheritance, something we possess now as a birthright. This birthright cannot be lost, stolen, taken back by God even, deserved or paid back, but since you are now the soul owner of this birthright you can give it away.

I'd never made that connection. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[Geralt]

tell them the truth, the salvation in christ is a NEW creation, the OLD is gone, the NEW has come, that it brings freedom, that this freedom is NOT a license to sin, that it is a gift and a privilege, and that we are created for good works, that the christian is conformed one step at a time to the likeness of christ.

that said, also tell them that God's work is safe and secure, that he will never leave nor forsake his own, and that there will be OTHERS out there who will persuade that salvation is incomplete and conditional to the works of the flesh. these are those who deludedly think God saves people yet never changes them and therefore falls in the category of unbelief.

 

[bottomofsandal]

tell them the truth, the salvation in christ is a NEW creation, the OLD is gone, the NEW has come, that it brings freedom, that this freedom is NOT a license to sin, that it is a gift and a privilege, and that we are created for good works, that the christian is conformed one step at a time to the likeness of christ.

that said, also tell them that God's work is safe and secure, that he will never leave nor forsake his own, and that there will be OTHERS out there who will persuade that salvation is incomplete and conditional to the works of the flesh. these are those who deludedly think God saves people yet never changes them and therefore falls in the category of unbelief.

Shouldn't the new believer wonder what else may expire or disappear in this new Christianity?
What is the bedrock teaching of Christ other the gift of eternal life, forever with The Lord?

Peter in 1 Peter 1:4 says our inheritance can never perish, spoil, or fade...kept in Heaven for us.

 

[Geralt]

the only thing (proof) that should dissapear is the old life.

can't claim all the other privileges of christianity without change.
christianity after all is about christ, or as a verb, becoming like christ.
salvation does not expire, it is not dependent on works or (free) will to throw it away as others have so eagerly defend.

Shouldn't the new believer wonder what else may expire or disappear in this new Christianity?
What is the bedrock teaching of Christ other the gift of eternal life, forever with The Lord?

Peter in 1 Peter 1:4 says our inheritance can never perish, spoil, or fade...kept in Heaven for us.

 

[bottomofsandal]

the only thing (proof) that should dissapear is the old life.

can't claim all the other privileges of christianity without change.
christianity after all is about christ, or as a verb, becoming like christ.
salvation does not expire, it is not dependent on works or (free) will to throw it away as others have so eagerly defend.

Seems like a potential, temporary improvement of one's eternity is not very appealing to the condemned sinner who is looking for security and deliverance from his death sentence. Additionally, it paints a mischaracterization of God The Giver. God holds out an offer, then rescinds the offer.


It doesn't really matter if man believes he can return salvation or loses salvation, or even if God snatches it away from the believer. It should not be called the gift of eternal life, if in fact it is neither life, nor eternal. Man's position remains unchanged. How then is God able to persuade and what is the gospel message?

 

[Geralt]

there's the rub isn't it. might be true of all other religions, but not biblical christianity. for the God of scripture does not stand aside like santa clause checking his list checking it twice looking for the naughty or nice, but intersects human heart and will and CHANGES them. God "forms" his children. christians eventually are not the product of their own will power, but in essence God working them; Ephesians 2:10

and the gospel message is the good news of reconciliation with God and the privilege of God interacting with them.

Seems like a potential, temporary improvement of one's eternity is not very appealing to the condemned sinner who is looking for security and deliverance from his death sentence. Additionally, it paints a mischaracterization of God The Giver. God holds out an offer, then rescinds the offer.

It doesn't really matter if man believes he can return salvation or loses salvation, or even if God snatches it away from the believer. It should not be called the gift of eternal life, if in fact it is neither life, nor eternal. Man's position remains unchanged. How then is God able to persuade and what is the gospel message?

 

[bling]

Seems like a potential, temporary improvement of one's eternity is not very appealing to the condemned sinner who is looking for security and deliverance from his death sentence. Additionally, it paints a mischaracterization of God The Giver. God holds out an offer, then rescinds the offer.


It doesn't really matter if man believes he can return salvation or loses salvation, or even if God snatches it away from the believer. It should not be called the gift of eternal life, if in fact it is neither life, nor eternal. Man's position remains unchanged. How then is God able to persuade and what is the gospel message?

It needs to be explained as the Bible describes it as our inheritance, something we possess now as a birthright. This birthright cannot be lost, stolen, taken back by God even, deserved or paid back, but since you are now the soul owner of this birthright you can give it away.
If God gave it to us then it is ours and we should be able to give it away like Esau did if it is ours. You make it sound like we should be "disappointed" with the gift if we can do what we want with the gift?

 

[sdowney717]

Esau sells away his birthright, but see this was before determined by God's will.
This teaches the main point that God shows His sovereignty over what man thinks should happen according to the natural order of things.
According to His will, God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau, before they had been born and done anything good or bad.
This is according to God's will and purposes, really known only to Him, but that will of God is all powerful everywhere.

Before their birth God tells Rebecca,

Genesis 25
19 This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham’s son. Abraham begot Isaac. 20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian. 21 Now Isaac pleaded with the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If all is well, why am I like this?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.

23 And the Lord said to her:

“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger.”

24 So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red. He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came out, and his hand took hold of Esau’s heel; so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

After Esau sold his birthright, Esau despised his birthright. And Esau also does not get the blessing.
Infact Esau can not repent even though he sought so with tears.
This was fore-determined by the Lord from before either was born, to demonstrate to all the election of God beforehand of persons,
in saying it this way,

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”


Hebrews 12
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Esau was rejected before his birth because Esau was not called according to God's purpose regarding His election of people. Jacob on the other hand was called according to God's purposes and was elect before his birth.
Salvation is not of a persons works but of Him who calls, and only according to His purposes, not the purposes of any man. And salvation is not based on us having done anything good or evil. That is the whole point of Esau and Jacob in teaching us about God's electing love of certain persons before they are born, before they do evil or good, God elects them to be saved, and others are not elected to be saved.

IF you love God, then you will love Christ, and the reason you love them is that God has called you according to His election for His purposes. This truth is shown here also.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[EmSw]

Esau sells away his birthright, but see this was before determined by God's will.
This teaches the main point that God shows His sovereignty over what man thinks should happen according to the natural order of things.
According to His will, God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau, before they had been born and done anything good or bad.
This is according to God's will and purposes, really known only to Him, but that will of God is all powerful everywhere.

Before their birth God tells Rebecca,

Genesis 25
19 This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham’s son. Abraham begot Isaac. 20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian. 21 Now Isaac pleaded with the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If all is well, why am I like this?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.

23 And the Lord said to her:

“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger.”

24 So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red. He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came out, and his hand took hold of Esau’s heel; so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

After Esau sold his birthright, Esau despised his birthright. And Esau also does not get the blessing.
Infact Esau can not repent even though he sought so with tears.
This was fore-determined by the Lord from before either was born, to demonstrate to all the election of God beforehand of persons,
in saying it this way,

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”


Hebrews 12
16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

Esau was rejected before his birth because Esau was not called according to God's purpose regarding His election of people. Jacob on the other hand was called according to God's purposes and was elect before his birth.
Salvation is not of a persons works but of Him who calls, and only according to His purposes, not the purposes of any man. And salvation is not based on us having done anything good or evil. That is the whole point of Esau and Jacob in teaching us about God's electing love of certain persons before they are born, before they do evil or good, God elects them to be saved, and others are not elected to be saved.

IF you love God, then you will love Christ, and the reason you love them is that God has called you according to His election for His purposes. This truth is shown here also.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Where in Genesis do you find this - “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated”?

 

[sdowney717]

Where in Genesis do you find this - “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated”?

It is in the words of the prophet Malachi.
Malachi 1GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
“I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated”
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.

2 “I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

4 “The descendants of Esau may say, ‘We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.’

“Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called ‘the Wicked Land’ and ‘the people with whom the Lord is always angry.’ 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, ‘Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.’

 

[EmSw]

It is in the words of the prophet Malachi.
Malachi 1GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
“I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated”
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.

2 “I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

4 “The descendants of Esau may say, ‘We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.’

“Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called ‘the Wicked Land’ and ‘the people with whom the Lord is always angry.’ 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, ‘Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.’

It doesn't say God hated Esau in the womb. However, it does say two nations are in your womb. So, who did God hate, Esau or the nation after Esau? When did God hate Esau, or the nation?

 

[Grafted In]

It needs to be explained as the Bible describes it as our inheritance, something we possess now as a birthright. This birthright cannot be lost, stolen, taken back by God even, deserved or paid back, but since you are now the soul owner of this birthright you can give it away.
If God gave it to us then it is ours and we should be able to give it away like Esau did if it is ours. You make it sound like we should be "disappointed" with the gift if we can do what we want with the gift?

Jesus Christ purchased us with His own blood. We belong to Him so He will keep us saved. We are the soul owner of nothing.
We are not our own....we have been purchaced just as a Jewish bride has been purchased by the man she is espoused to. The bridegroom gives his future wife a downpayment, just as we are given the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1

 

[EmSw]

Jesus Christ purchased us with His own blood. We belong to Him so He will keep us saved. We are the soul owner of nothing.
We are not our own....we have been purchaced just as a Jewish bride has been purchased by the man she is espoused to. The bridegroom gives his future wife a downpayment, just as we are given the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1

Grafted In, do you also believe in predestination of all things?