Are We Christians or Israelites?

Noxot

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it is like thinking that democracy is the best form of government when in reality the best form of government is to be with God for we see in heaven that the kingdom of heaven is like this:

1Cor 9:24 (YLT)
have ye not known that those running in a race--all indeed run, but one doth receive the prize? so run ye, that ye may obtain;

therefore teachers are appointed for those who need such things just as it is God who ministers and provides to all and indeed all things are good to those who are in Christ and yet God must say many things to teach our limited selves what he, the infinite, is saying and so often our little souls become confused and latch unto one thing or another and thus can not see other facets of the same thing God wishes to show us, which I think is why God told us that:

Luke 11:34-36 (YLT)
`The lamp of the body is the eye, when then thine eye may be simple, thy whole body also is lightened; and when it may be evil, thy body also is darkened; take heed, then, lest the light that is in thee be darkness; if then thy whole body is lightened, not having any part darkened, the whole shall be lightened, as when the lamp by the brightness may give thee light.'

for certainly the Lord wishes us to 'increase and multiply' and he makes his will be made known clearly to all of us whos eyes are upon him and him alone, giving thanks for the foods he sets before us and yet still we come to a remembrance that:

Luke 13:18-21 (YLT)
And he said, `To what is the reign of God like? and to what shall I liken it? It is like to a grain of mustard, which a man having taken, did cast into his garden, and it increased, and came to a great tree, and the fowls of the heavens did rest in its branches.' And again he said, `To what shall I liken the reign of God? It is like leaven, which a woman, having taken, did hide in three measures of meal, till that all was leavened.'

Matt 13:44-50 (YLT)
`Again, the reign of the heavens is like to treasure hid in the field, which a man having found did hide, and from his joy goeth, and all, as much as he hath, he selleth, and buyeth that field. `Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a man, a merchant, seeking goodly pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, having gone away, hath sold all, as much as he had, and bought it. `Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a net that was cast into the sea, and did gather together of every kind, which, when it was filled, having drawn up again upon the beach, and having sat down, they gathered the good into vessels, and the bad they did cast out, so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'
 
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SpiritRehab

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Israel is a Biblical given name. The patriarch Jacob was given the name Israel (Hebrew: יִשְׂרָאֵל, StandardYisraʾelTiberianYiśrāʾēl; "Triumphant with God", "who prevails with God"[1]) after he wrestled with an angel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_(name)

You can see that this wikipedia writer has not spiritually discerned this understanding, by the fact that he writes, "after he wrestled with an angel," instead of "...with God."

Israel[N][E][H]
The Name and People. Jacob, grandson of Abraham, was named Israel after he hadwrestled with God (Gen32:28 ). This name is a combination of the Hebrew words for "wrestle" and"God" (because sareta [you have wrestled] with God [‘el] andmen you will be called yisrael).
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/israel/

This dictionary writer misquotes the Bible, writing,
"because you have wrestled with God and men, you will be called Israel."

What the Bible actually says is,

'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. - KJV

"Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail." - YLT

Israel
Biblical Meaning:

The name Israel is a Biblical baby name. In Biblical the meaning of the name Israel is:Who prevails with God.
http://www.sheknows.com/baby-names/name/israel

Israel is not a Baby name, as the name was given to a grown man and no one else in the Bible was named Israel. So you can see how this source too, is too lazy to study up. Rather they did a quick search and finished their baby name's website.

Meaning of the word "Israel"
A. Hebrew word yisra-el
B. Derived from two root words

1. yisra - uncertain meaning
a. Contextual - "to strive, struggle" - Gen. 32:28
b. Etymological - most likely meaning - "to rule"
2. el - means "god" or "God"
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/israel.html

This source claims the meaning is uncertain and derives the meaning from the context. While both the pictographic meaning of the letters and the context is clearly speaking of a Prince.

Anyway, I appreciate the depth of your reply :)
 
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Open Heart

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You can see that this wikipedia writer has not spiritually discerned this understanding, by the fact that he writes, "after he wrestled with an angel," instead of "...with God."
He is not wrong. The answer is both. The angel represented God. If an angel gives me a message from God, and I squirm with it, I'm am also squirming with God.
 
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SpiritRehab

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He is not wrong. The answer is both. The angel represented God. If an angel gives me a message from God, and I squirm with it, I'm am also squirming with God.

I understand, but Jacob didn't strugle against a message.
He physically wrestled with the Angel of Yahowah.
Who is Jesus in Angelic form,
just as Jesus is God in Human flesh.

Genesis 32 - 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name? And He said, "Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?" And He blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Judges 13 - 17 And Manoah said unto the Angel of YHWH, "What is thy name? That when thy sayings come to pass, we may do thee honour?" 18 And the Angel of the YHWH said unto him, "Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" 19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto YHWH: and the Angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the Angel of YHWH ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 21 But the Angel of YHWH did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of YHWH. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
 
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Open Heart

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I understand, but Jacob didn't strugle against a message.
He physically wrestled with the Angel of Yahowah.
Who is Jesus in Angelic form,
just as Jesus is God in Human flesh.
That is ONE interpretation. Many believe it was simply an angel of God, like it says.
 
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SpiritRehab

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That is ONE interpretation. Many believe it was simply an angel of God, like it says.

What they believe is also ONE interpretation :p and "many" believe Jacob wrestled with God. My hope is to show from Scripture which interpretation is true.

Genesis 32 - 24 And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him, until the breaking of the day. 25 And when He saw that He prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with Him. 26 And He said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And He said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked Him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name? And He said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And He blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Consider:

Can a Human defeat an Angel?
No.
Why would an Angel let a Human win?
If God tells him to.
Why would God tell an Angel to let Jacob win?
To send the message that he has prevailed against Angels.
But that is not the message of the passage.
The message is, For as a Prince, hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

So can Man defeat God?
No.
Why would God let Jacob win?
To send the message that he has power with God and hast prevailed.

How does he have power with God?
Of his own strength?
No.
A Father lets His child win, out of love, to teach him that he can prevail, if he holds fast to Jesus.

It was Jesus who wrestled with Jacob.
Which is why the Man said, "Wherefore is it that thou doest ask after my name?"
Just as the Angel of YHWH said in Judges 13, and Gideon's parents knew it was God.

Just as Moses spoke with the Angel of YHWH out of the burning bush and He knew it was God.

Jesus is the Angel of YHWH,
literally, the Messenger of YHWH.
 
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Open Heart

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30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
  • Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.
  • John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Your Abraham quote is figurative, or else it would contradict scripture. Jacob saw God only through His representative, the Angel.
 
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SpiritRehab

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  • Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.
  • John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Your Abraham quote is figurative, or else it would contradict scripture. Jacob saw God only through His representative, the Angel.

That's an understandable interpretation, but please consider:

Exodus 33 - 11 And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp, but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deuteronomy 34 - And there arose not a prophet since, in Israel, like unto Moses, whom YHWH knew face to face.

Judges 6 - 22 Then Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of YHWH. And Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord YHWH! For now I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face."
23 But YHWH said to him, "Peace be to you. Do not fear. You shall not die."

Genesis 18 - 1 And YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre. And he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, 2 and he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him. And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground... (the whole chapter is Abraham speaking with YHWH, face to face)

Still, there is no contradiction here, because that Truth, "there shall no man see me and live" is in reference to God our Father; as He dwells in unapproachable light, which is why Moses was glowing when he came down from Mt. Horeb.

All the verses in the Bible where people see God face to face & live, is in reference to God the Son, aka the Angel of the LORD, aka the Messenger of YHWH, aka Pre-Incarnate Jesus - John 1:18

John 8 - 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto Him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

So, it was God whom Jacob saw face to face. It was God the Son, the Messenger of YHWH.
 
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Open Heart

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That's an understandable interpretation, but please consider:

Exodus 33 - 11 And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp, but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deuteronomy 34 - And there arose not a prophet since, in Israel, like unto Moses, whom YHWH knew face to face.

Judges 6 - 22 Then Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of YHWH. And Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord YHWH! For now I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face."
23 But YHWH said to him, "Peace be to you. Do not fear. You shall not die."

Genesis 18 - 1 And YHWH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre. And he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, 2 and he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him. And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground... (the whole chapter is Abraham speaking with YHWH, face to face)

Still, there is no contradiction here, because that Truth, "there shall no man see me and live" is in reference to God our Father; as He dwells in unapproachable light, which is why Moses was glowing when he came down from Mt. Horeb.

All the verses in the Bible where people see God face to face & live, is in reference to God the Son, aka the Angel of the LORD, aka the Messenger of YHWH, aka Pre-Incarnate Jesus - John 1:18

John 8 - 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto Him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

So, it was God whom Jacob saw face to face. It was God the Son, the Messenger of YHWH.
I know it is a common interpretation that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus. I disagree. I think it is just what it says: an Angel. This angel manifests on behalf of God.
 
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SpiritRehab

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I know it is a common interpretation that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus. I disagree. I think it is just what it says: an Angel. This angel manifests on behalf of God.

Okay, but then what do you suppose Jesus meant, in John 8:56-58?
Also, who did Moses see Face to Face?
It could not have been God our Father, as He said you will not see my face.

I can't think of any other explanation as to why the Word of God records again & again, that people saw God face to face, but lived; when they saw the Messenger of YHWH.

By the way, an Angel is not a Species of Creature, but a Title of Purpose. The English word Angel comes from the Greek, Angelos, meaning Messenger; same as the Hebrew Malach.

So I agree, for sure it was a Messenger Jacob saw, but who was that messenger?
The Messenger said, "wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?"
and in Judges He adds, "...seeing it is wondrous,"
 
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Open Heart

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Okay, but then what do you suppose Jesus meant, in John 8:56-58?
Also, who did Moses see Face to Face?
It could not have been God our Father, as He said you will not see my face.

I can't think of any other explanation as to why the Word of God records again & again, that people saw God face to face, but lived; when they saw the Messenger of YHWH.

By the way, an Angel is not a Species of Creature, but a Title of Purpose. The English word Angel comes from the Greek, Angelos, meaning Messenger; same as the Hebrew Malach.

So I agree, for sure it was a Messenger Jacob saw, but who was that messenger?
The Messenger said, "wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?"
and in Judges He adds, "...seeing it is wondrous,"
Moses only saw God face to face in a figurative sense. It means he was so close to God.
Yes, I know Angel is Hebrew is Malach. I may be Christian, but I'm also a Jew. :)
I just don't believe the Messenger was Christ.
And I'm your typical trinitarian; I do believe Jesus is God.
 
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SpiritRehab

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Moses only saw God face to face in a figurative sense. It means he was so close to God.
Yes, I know Angel is Hebrew is Malach. I may be Christian, but I'm also a Jew. :)
I just don't believe the Messenger was Christ.
And I'm your typical trinitarian; I do believe Jesus is God.

Okay, well thanks for discussing with me :)
Glad to hear more Jewish people are being saved by Messiah.
 
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