Are We Christians or Israelites?

[Open Heart]

Okay, I will emphasize the parts of each passage that is relevant to our discussion.

None of it is relavant as they are discussing Israel, not God's people after the Cross. Apples and Oranges.

 

[Winken]

Christ = Christos (Greek) = Messias (Messiah)(Hebrew) = Anointed. Only God anointed Him. In Judaism he was known as "the anointed." Note that "the anointed" or "the Christ" or "the Messiah" is properly preceeded by that word, "the". In that context Messiah or Christ is not the name of Jesus; it is His title as God's anointed.

 

[SpiritRehab]

None of it is relavant as they are discussing Israel, not God's people after the Cross. Apples and Oranges.

Passages to consider:

Jeremiah 31 - Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

YHWH made His new covenant, by Israelites, in Israel, for Israelites and any Gentiles who are saved by Messiah, are grafted into God's people, Israel.

Romans 11 - I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away His people, which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then, at this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So you see, Christianity is not a Gentile religion, but the fulfillment of Israel's Destiny. It is the Glory of God to show His Love by welcoming sinners from every Tribe of the World, into His chosen people, Israel; though the Life Sacrifice of His Son, our Saviour Jesus, Amen

 

[Open Heart]

Passages to consider:

Jeremiah 31 - Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

YHWH made His new covenant, by Israelites, in Israel, for Israelites and any Gentiles who are saved by Messiah, are grafted into God's people, Israel.

Romans 11 - I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away His people, which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then, at this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So you see, Christianity is not a Gentile religion, but the fulfillment of Israel's Destiny. It is the Glory of God to show His Love by welcoming sinners from every Tribe of the World, into His chosen people, Israel; though the Life Sacrifice of His Son, our Savior Jesus, Amen

There are two things go on here. Up front, we both agree that Paul is discussing Israel, the physical seed of Jacob, and not the Church. 1. Israel still has yet a part to play in God's plan and will eventually come to Christ in the last days (Your Jeremiah quote) 2. there is a remnant of Israel that will ALSO be part of the Church.

 

[SpiritRehab]

There are two things go on here. Up front, we both agree that Paul is discussing Israel, the physical seed of Jacob, and not the Church. 1. Israel still has yet a part to play in God's plan and will eventually come to Christ in the last days (Your Jeremiah quote) 2. there is a remnant of Israel that will ALSO be part of the Church.

Correct me if I have misunderstood you. From what you wrote, I assume you believe that only those born of the bloodline of Jacob are Israel; while gentile believers in Messiah are still not Israel.

Please consider these Passage:

Leviticus 19:34 - But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am YHWH your God.

If a stranger who immigrates to Israel, is to be loved as an Israelite at heart, how much more us gentiles who came to Faith, who were redeemed by the Blood of Messiah Himself?

Isaiah 56 - Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the YHWH, speak saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from His people.
Neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the name of Yahowah, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Since this was true of the Old Covenant,
then it is True of the New Covenant.

All are One in Jesus
Israel is His people.
Only believers are Israel

 

[Open Heart]

Correct me if I have misunderstood you. From what you wrote, I assume you believe that only those born of the bloodline of Jacob are Israel; while gentile believers in Messiah are still not Israel.

Please consider these Passage:

Leviticus 19:34 - But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am YHWH your God.

If a stranger who immigrates to Israel, is to be loved as an Israelite at heart, how much more us gentiles who came to Faith, who were redeemed by the Blood of Messiah Himself?

Isaiah 56 - Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the YHWH, speak saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from His people.
Neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the name of Yahowah, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Since this was true of the Old Covenant,
then it is True of the New Covenant.

All are One in Jesus
Israel is His people.
Only believers are Israel

A Jew (Israelite) is one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism. For example, Ruth was a convert. Rahab was a convert. The mixed multitude converted.

However, just because Gentiles live in the land of Israel (and are treated as Israelites at heart) doesn't mean they have converted; they are still Gentiles.

You have to be careful with the word "stranger." Sometimes (such as in Lev 19:34) it is the word GER in Hebrew, which can be translated as Convert or Proselyte.

Your passage in Isaiah refers to righteous gentiles (noahides), what in NT times were called God Fearers. You may recall that Cornelius was a God Fearer.

 

[SpiritRehab]

However, just because Gentiles live in the land of Israel (and are treated as Israelites at heart) doesn't mean they have converted; they are still Gentiles.

You have to be careful with the word "stranger." Sometimes (such as in Lev 19:34) it is the word GER in Hebrew, which can be translated as Convert or Proselyte.

Your passage in Isaiah refers to righteous gentiles (noahides), what in NT times were called God Fearers. You may recall that Cornelius was a God Fearer.

Thanks for the insight into the difference between Stranger & Convert I appreciate that.

About whether we are Christians or Israelites.
I believe we are both, really.
As the World calls us Christians, and I wouldn't deny that name.

But Biblically / Spiritually / by the Will of the Father, I believe we are Israel.
Please consider, one more issue:

A Jew (Israelite) is one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism. For example, Ruth was a convert. Rahab was a convert. The mixed multitude converted.

If you would agree that Jesus is the climax of the whole Bible. Then I think you will agree that any Jew or Gentile, who believes in Jesus, is a convert; like the mixed multitude.

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision, by that which is called the Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands.
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
17 And came and preached peace to you, which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is only 1 people who will be saved, Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion, the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So Gentiles are brought into Israel

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christ = Christos (Greek) = Messias (Messiah)(Hebrew) = Anointed. Only God anointed Him. In Judaism he was known as "the anointed." Note that "the anointed" or "the Christ" or "the Messiah" is properly preceeded by that word, "the". In that context Messiah or Christ is not the name of Jesus; it is His title as God's anointed.

Different bible versions appears to differ on the amount of times "Messiah" is used in the Bible.

I put up a good concordance link and used YLT's translation. Maybe we should have thread on that word?...

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=messiah&t=YLT&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1

YLT:
Psa 2:2
Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah:
Dan 9:
25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,.............
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

John 1:41
He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ).
John 4:25
The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

 

[ron4shua]

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/6.htm
1What, then, shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, to let favour increase?

2Let it not be! How shall we who died to sina still live in it?

3Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Messiah יהושע were immersed into His death?

4We were therefore buried with Him through immersion into death, that as Messiah was raised from the dead by the esteem of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have come to be grown together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also of the resurrection,

6knowing this, that our old man was impaled with Him, so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, to serve sin no longer.

http://biblehub.com/isr/1_corinthians/1.htm
26For look at your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.

27But Elohim has chosen the foolish matters of the world to put to shame the wise, and Elohim has chosen the weak of the world to put to shame the strong.

28And Elohim has chosen the low-born of the world and the despised, and the ones that are not, that He might bring to naught the ones that are,

29so that no flesh should boast in His presence.

30And of Him you are in Messiah יהושע, who became for us wisdom from Elohim, righteousness also, and set-apartness and redemption,

31that, as it has been written, “He who boasts, let him boast in יהוה.”

Hallelu-YAH .

*

 

[Open Heart]

Thanks for the insight into the difference between Stranger & Convert I appreciate that.

About whether we are Christians or Israelites.
I believe we are both, really.
As the World calls us Christians, and I wouldn't deny that name.

But Biblically / Spiritually / by the Will of the Father, I believe we are Israel.
Please consider, one more issue:



If you would agree that Jesus is the climax of the whole Bible. Then I think you will agree that any Jew or Gentile, who believes in Jesus, is a convert; like the mixed multitude.

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision, by that which is called the Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands.
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
17 And came and preached peace to you, which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is only 1 people who will be saved, Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion, the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So Gentiles are brought into Israel

I believe you are quite mistaken. Believing Gentiles are part of the people of God, part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel itself.

Believing Gentiles are grafted onto Israel's root, the way a peach tree is grafted onto plum roots. But it merely gives a better peach because of the superior root system, it does not bear plums. In the same way you Gentiles bear better fruits due to the better root system, but you are still Gentiles.

The verse "All Israel shall be saved," refers to unbelieving Isreal. This is clarified two verses later in Romans 11:28: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs"

 

[SpiritRehab]

I believe you are quite mistaken. Believing Gentiles are part of the people of God, part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel itself.

I don't understand? How do you differentiate between being part of the Commonwealth of Israel, but not part of Israel itself?

Believing Gentiles are grafted onto Israel's root, the way a peach tree is grafted onto plum roots. But it merely gives a better peach because of the superior root system, it does not bear plums. In the same way you Gentiles bear better fruits due to the better root system, but you are still Gentiles.

But Paul doesn't differentiate us as being different types of fruit trees. His analogy is that we are both Olive Trees, but one wild & one cultivated. The wild being Humans without God int he world and the cultivated being Humans with God.

The verse "All Israel shall be saved," refers to unbelieving Isreal.

Do you believe Jesus will save those who don't believe in Him? That every Israelite, from Jacob's 12 sons to the end of the world, will be saved? That salvation can be by race alone without Faith in Messiah?

This is clarified two verses later in Romans 11:28: "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs"

Verse 28 is the beginning of the next point, that builds off the previous point, outlined from verse 22 to 27.

In other words,
Verse 22 - Beginning of Point 1
Verse 23 - Stipulation
Verse 24 - Explanation
Verse 25 - Prophetic Revelation
Verse 26 & 27 - Scriptural Support
Verse 28 - Beginning of Point 2
Verse 29 - Stipulation
Verse 30 & 31 - Explanation
Verse 32 - Conclusion
Verses 33 to 36 - Worship

This is also evident in fact that verse 25 continues directly into verse 26, but verse 28 begins a secondary point.

(intro to the Prophecy)
25 For I would not, brethren,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits:
(Prophetic Revelation)
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved.
(Scriptural Support)
As it is written,
"There shall come out of Sion, the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 for this is my covenant unto them,
when I shall take away their sins."
(Next Related Point)
28 As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(Stipulation)
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Explanation)
30 For as ye in times past.... yet have now... 31 Even so have these also...
(Conclusion)
32 For God hath concluded...

I hope this helps you understand my perspective.
I don't mean to harass you into believing what I believe.
I'm just trying to explain my belief as clearly as possible.
So there's no misunderstanding.
Thanks for reading

 

[Open Heart]

I don't understand? How do you differentiate between being part of the Commonwealth of Israel, but not part of Israel itself?

The commonwealth is a larger circle than Israel. For example, in the Land lived Gentiles who were not of the People of Israel. Because they lived in the land, they were bound to obey the same law as the Israelites. They were part of the commonwealth, even though they were not Israel.

 

[Open Heart]

But Paul doesn't differentiate us as being different types of fruit trees. His analogy is that we are both Olive Trees, but one wild & one cultivated. The wild being Humans without God int he world and the cultivated being Humans with God.

Actually a wild olive is a different species than the domesticated olive. A wild olive is Olea Oleaster. A domesticated olive tree is Olea Europaea. So being grafted onto the Europaea root doesn't change the Oleaster into a Europaea.

 

[Open Heart]

Do you believe Jesus will save those who don't believe in Him?

It's what Paul says, and I believe the Bible--they are part of the elect. Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

 

[SpiritRehab]

It's funny how there were 5 overall points to discuss, but just this one has carried on so long. It was beneficial for me Thanks for discussing.

 

[ron4shua]

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/2.htm
26So, if an uncircumcised one watches over the righteousnesses of the Torah, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned as circumcision?

27And the uncircumcised by nature, who perfects the Torah, shall judge you who notwithstanding letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the Torah!

28For he is not a Yehuḏite who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29But a Yehuḏite is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart,a in Spirit, not literally, whose praise is not from men but from Elohim.

( And having heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Kĕpha and the rest of the emissaries, “Men, brothers, what shall we do?” )

8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

3For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

4so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.

6For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

7Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itselfa to the Torah of Elohimb, neither indeed is it able,

8and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.

9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Messiah, this one is not His.

10And if Messiah is in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.

11And if the Spirit of Him who raised יהושע from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Messiah from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit dwelling in you.

12So then, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

13For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are sons of Elohim.

How about calling them , YAHshuaests ? I think that's the most derogatory moniker those first
century Hebrew's would've used . In Hebrew spoor , the same as heretic .
I also believe , obedient followers of " The Way " would've accepted it as a badge of honor .
Like a windshield in a high speed automobile accepts a airborne insect on a hot day .

Hallelu-YAH .

 

[JustHisKid]

Hi Ron4shua

So what happened is, I noticed a while ago that I didn't know our Father's name. So I asked Him and studied, which lead me to an interest in all the Biblical character's real names; which eventually lead me to question a second time, how we got the name "Christian."

Did some study into that and came to the conclusion that our God given name isn't "Christian" but Israel.

Can explain if you'd like.
Would appreciate your thoughts on the issue too.

This identity separation from the name "Christian" helped me be less bias and see more flaws in Christianity than I ever had before.

ie.
1. Teaching that it's Impossible to Stop Sinning
2. God's Law is Done Away With
3. Images of Messiah as a Man
4. Images of the Holy Spirit as an Animal
5. Speaking the name of false gods, but not our Father's
6. Belief in Inerrant Translations
7. Church "circus" model of the Nicolaitans
8. No Love of Truth = 33,000 Divisions
9. Inability to Provoke Jews to Jealousy
10. Baptism into a Denomination (separate-name)
11. Wasting tithes on buildings instead of building up believers
12. Trinity: 1 god in 3 CO-ETERNAL persons? (that's 3 gods)
13. False Gospel: Salvation without Repentance (see heresies #1-12) nor the Love of Righteousness, including Truth.

So in the same way that I could not join one denomination or another, due to false gospels & other heresies, I now find I can no longer call myself Christian, because the religion has too many core corruptions, shared by almost all denominations; and of course the most important truth, the Gospel Message, is corrupted as well

This decision is also influenced by my belief that our God given name, as His people, is Israel, not Christian.

In short, I'm not a Christian anymore, in title & in the above beliefs, but I am even more dedicated to my saviour Yahoshua & my Father Yahouah, than I've ever been before; thanks, I believe, to the Eternal Holy Spirit of Truth.

Anyway, let me know what you think about this most "heretical blasphemy" as my former friends call it.

Believers are not Israel. Israel is still Israel and is still God's chosen people. He's not done with them yet. Believers are the church.

 

[SpiritRehab]

Believers are not Israel. Israel is still Israel and is still God's chosen people. He's not done with them yet. Believers are the church.

Just realized I didn't ask Open Heart to back up her views with Scripture. If you have the time, please show me how you arrived on that belief, by Scripture?

Thanks

 

[JustHisKid]

Just realized I didn't ask Open Heart to back up her views with Scripture. If you have the time, please show me how you arrived on that belief, by Scripture?

Thanks

Yes, by Scripture. I don't have the time to post it all right now, but a quick google search would land you there.

 

[SpiritRehab]

Yes, by Scripture. I don't have the time to post it all right now, but a quick google search would land you there.

When you have time, please check out my postings in this thread to another CF Member named Open Heart. In reply to her comments, I outline in detail, almost entirely by Scripture, with very few words from myself, why I believe that either Jew or Gentile, only believers are Israel.