Are those being saved (or entering into the Kingdom of God), few,(minority) or not?

Neogaia777

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OK, so when the Word says it's God's will that none shall perish (meaning He wants all to be saved), and when the Word says Jesus paid for the sin of all mankind (meaning He provided the way for any person to get saved)... these scriptures should be ignored?

I hope not cause they show that God is not just picking specific people to be saved and chunkin the rest in hell.

I always get tickled at the election crowd, somehow none of them ever being one of the ones God did not choose to be saved. Funny how that works.

You didn't finish the scripture and are quoting it out of context, where you said: "It is God's will that none shall perish" the next part of that says "but that all should attain to repentance"

And Jesus gave warning saying that "unless you repent, you shall all likewise be destroyed" For the full scripture see Luke 13:2-5...

Repentance is a very big issue throughout the Bible, but who can be the judge (among humankind) of another's repentance...

God Bless!
 
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Ted Lang

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OK, so you think you just happen to be one of the ones God has chosen to be saved... how do you know you are actually one of the ones God has chosen to be cast in to the lake o fire?

Just because not all people get saved, does not mean God did not provide for thier salvation. It was one man's fault that sin entered the world (Adam), so God would be unjust and unrighteous if He failed to provide the opportunity for all to be saved.
 
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yes the process of salvation is first by my desire to know him and trust him more than I trust myself..once we know full well what we are capable of.. that first things gets easier....

then if I ask him to save me from myself , he will answer......

because HE is salvation.. we are not clean dirt anymore and a little spit shine isn't going to fix it.... so he has to breath on us who are now mere corrupted dirt..
He is salvation and HE is committed to LIFE!!
he is committed to salvation.. and how ever many times must he breath on us to restore our sight , to make us right , to heal our minds and break our bonds, to heal our soul, to make us whole......He is committed to do it !

he is salvation... he is committed to all who ask and IF they mean it enough to allow him to change them to mold them , to heal them... that is painful but joyful...
He is salvation. he is the author of our souls! he is the writer of our faith if we allow him to do it.
He will re-breath life over and over a million times if that is what it takes to bring us into his life.. his breath comes into us as many times as it takes and as long as we allow him to 'save" /heal / restore us to who and what he created us to be . He is so awesome! All we have to do is ask and then mean it. because change is coming and so is pain.. and when we mean it he will start his process of restoration. the restoration is to bring us back to the Father and to his laws of LIFE .
 
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pescador

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KooLness., so all future sins are already forgiven I can go smoke crack, rob convenience stores, and beat up little old ladies!

Many today take a statement like this to mean exactly this, that it matters not how we live our lives since we are sealed and that reaping what we sow thing just isn't applicable to us after we say we believe in Jesus.

I think many today confuse God's willingness that none should parish and Him having made a way unto salvation means we have no responsibility to walk with Him, to live for Him, to not turn our backs on Him.... cause it's all up to Him.

We do have to make the choice to walk in the Spirit (In Christ), versus walk in the flesh (away from Christ) since we have free will as noted in Galatians 6:7,8

Do you want to smoke crack, rob convenience stores, and beat up little old ladies? Perhaps you need to read Romans 6. You're either dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus or you're not. BTW, it is all up to Him. If it's up to us then you've thrown away grace and you're back under the law.
 
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ALoveDivine

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how do you know you are actually one of the ones God has chosen to be cast in to the lake o fire?
Because I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice on my behalf. By this faith we are saved.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

If you believe in Christ you have eternal life, meaning you are elect.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

Those who do not believe, do not believe, because they are not Christ's sheep, meaning they are not of the elect.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26)

Christ sheep are given to him by the father, and he contrasts his sheep from the world as a whole.

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (John 17:9)

We did not choose Christ, he chose us.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
(John 15:16)

I could go on and on and on and on and on. Election is taught all throughout scripture.

so God would be unjust and unrighteous if He failed to provide the opportunity for all to be saved.

"14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," (Romans 9:14-23)


I know the doctrine of unconditional election can be offensive form a human point of view, but it is true, and it is taught clearly all throughout God's word. He even addresses your very objection in Romans 9. Either you believe God's word or you don't. I'm very sorry if the truth offends your human sensibilities.
 
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Ted Lang

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Do you want to smoke crack, rob convenience stores, and beat up little old ladies? Perhaps you need to read Romans 6. You're either dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus or you're not. BTW, it is all up to Him. If it's up to us then you've thrown away grace and you're back under the law.

You, if it's all up to Him... you have no responsibility to walk with Him which is what walking in the Spirit is taught in Romans 8. If you have absolutely NO responsibility whatsoever, apparently God didn't know that cause there's all kinds of warnings in the New Testament that would be lies if we were not free moral agents that choose to either walk with God, or reject God and live in the flesh.

Who decides when you go to the bathroom, you or God? My point exactly, you are making some decisions because God made you to have the ability to choose. Nobody says salvation is up to us, but our part is choosing to RECEIVED and WALK IN the salvation Jesus purchased for us with His Blood at Calvary!

And, if I really wants to smoke crack, rob convenience stores, and beat up little old ladies, I'd be out doing that and not hanging out on a Christian talkboard :wave:
 
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ALoveDivine

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The bible declares that we are slaves. We are either slaves to sin (the unsaved) or slaves to God (the saved).

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22)

So we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God. Where, pray tell, is the "free will" in that? Can you show me some scriptures that acknowledge the "free will" of man? Because all I've found in the scripture is a human will enslaved to sin and a human will enslaved to God and righteousness.

Of course we do make choices, we do have a will. But the will is either in bondage to sin and Satan, or it is in bondage to God and righteousness. Can a slave to sin occasionally do something good? Sure. Can a slave to God and righteousness occasionally do something bad? Sure. But in neither case is the will "free" in any metaphysical or objective sense. This free will doctrine, that humans so highly esteem, is not found in God's word.
 
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Ted Lang

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This free will doctrine, that humans so highly esteem, is not found in God's word.

Sure it is... it's all over the Bible. It's called "seedtime and Harvest", maybe you've heard of it.

In Mark 4:26, Jesus put it this way... the Kingdom of God is like a man that has seed and casts it in to the ground. WHO do you supposed is deciding what gets planted???

Considering Galatians 6:7,8 which says God is not mocked, WHATSOEVER a man sows IS what he reaps... we see clearly mankind is the one that decides what seeds he plants which should be evident by the actions of Adam which got us in the mess this world is in now.

If there is no free will... WHO tells you what to do everyday?
 
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ALoveDivine

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WHO do you supposed is deciding what gets planted???
The seed is the word right?

"The sower soweth the word" (Mark 4:14)

Who's word? God's, obviously. So the sower is obviously God, in other words, God is distributing his word, to all, which the Lord breaks down into four types of people. That which fell by the wayside was not received at all, this refers to the out and out unbelievers who don't even make a profession.

That which fell on stony ground, and that which fell among thorns, refers to those who profess Christ superficially, but have not come unto salvation. A multitude of scriptures characterize the nature of real Christians, and the stony ground and the soil choked by thorns contradict these descriptions. Hence, these two categories do not refer to real Christians, but false ones.

The good soil, on the other hand, signifies true Christians, the saved, the regenerate. What makes soil good? It was tilled, or prepared, by the farmer, the one who sows the seed! The heart of a true Christian is regenerated by God, through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Here we see that the parable of the sower, rather than supporting your case, utterly refutes it and supports the doctrine of election.

Galatians 6:7-8 concerns an entirely different context from the parable of the sower, these verses use "sow" to refer to a practice, or a way of life. Paul is saying that if you way of life, or your practice, is characterized by the things of the flesh you will reap damnation. If your way of life, or your practice, is characterized by the things of the spirit, you will reap eternal life.

The book of Romans and the book of 1 John make it abundantly clear that those who are in the spirit, Christians, walk according to the spirit, that is, the Christian life is characterized by a way of life, or practice, or righteousness. 1 John especially is abundantly clear on this point. On the other hand, those who are in the flesh, the unsaved, walk according to the flesh, that is, the unregenerate life is characterized by a way of life, or practice, of sin and unrighteousness.

It is extremely important to rightly divide the word of truth. When we take the whole counsel of God's word your ideas of man's "free will" fall to pieces, while the truth of God's unconditional election is declared cover to cover. I have presented countless scriptural references and exegesis and I've yet to see you even attempt to tackle them.
 
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Ted Lang

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It is extremely important to rightly divide the word of truth. When we take the whole counsel of God's word your ideas of man's "free will" fall to pieces, while the truth of God's unconditional election is declared cover to cover. I have presented countless scriptural references and exegesis and I've yet to see you even attempt to tackle them.

OK, so apparently you believe in Mark 4:14-20 (Jesus' classic teaching on seedtime and harvest) it is God that is allowing the 5 things satan has to choke the Word to ENTER IN ???

Who is in charge of deciding when / if these things enter in and choke the Word? Jesus said it was the devil who was coming to steal the Word, right?

So, if God is sowing the Word... and the devil is trying to steal it... looks like you have the responsibility to decide either to allow the devil to steal the Word or to stand with the Lord and refuse to allow the devil to steal it.

Sure sounds and smell like free will... And, you never answered the bathroom question! Who decides when you go? What about eating? Who decides what you eat... that leads to needing to go to the john?
 
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ALoveDivine

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it is God that is allowing the 5 things satan has to choke the Word to ENTER IN ???
Is God not God? Is God not all powerful? Did not God allow Satan to enter the garden? In fact, doesn't Satan need permission to do anything? Remember when Satan gets permission to wreak havoc on Job? Remember when Satan gets permission from Christ to sift Peter like wheat? God is omnipotent. He could in fact prevent all evil from existing. Nothing in creation happens apart from God's sovereign and provident decree and/or permission.

Why does God permit evil? For his own glory, the same reason he decrees and/or permits all things that come to pass. God is glorified in vanquishing evil, and thereby magnifying his holiness and his grace.

Is God helpless in your theology? Like, he really hates evil but this "free will" is more powerful than he is so he can't do anything about it? That is absurd and bordering on blasphemous. NOTHING happens apart from the decree and/or permission of God, period. That is the definition of omnipotence. If you deny the omnipotence of God you deny God himself.

And you never answered the bathroom question!
Who gives you your breath? Who gives you the beats of your heart? Who gives you the very seconds of your life? Who gives you all these things which you must possess to even be able to make a choice?

Yes, I never denied that we make choices. We each have a will. But that will is not free in an ontological sense. The will of a being does not contradict the nature of that being. If unregenerate man is as the bible declares, dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1), then though he does make choices and he does have a will, this will flows from his essential nature, that of spiritual death. Will does not stand outside of essential nature, it reflects said nature.

"Free will" is an unsubstantiated, unbiblical, man-exalting metaphysical presupposition. Your position seems to be that of pelagianism, which is historically denounced by the church as heresy. Arminianism at least has a more subtle and careful definition of "free will" which acknowledges man's dependence on the provenient grace of God to enable a "free" choice to be made at all. I would more carefully consider your theological positions brother.
 
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Ted Lang

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OK, so I guess in your view God caused Adam to sin and God is the One that brought forth evil so He's half good and half evil in your view right?

God must be nuts to tell us to go preach the Gospel to all Creatures... knowing He's preventing some from being saved in your world right?

I suppose it's good for you to believe God controls all your decisions... that way, when you screw up you can blame God as though He is the One making the mistake! How convenient.
 
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ALoveDivine

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OK, so I guess in your view God caused Adam to sin
Caused? No. God is not the author of sin. Of course he permitted Adam to sin, even in your theology. God knew Adam would sin, and allowed him to sin, knowing full well all the consequences that would follow from that.

God is the One that brought forth evil
No, he permitted evil to come forth, with full knowledge of all that would come thereby. God is glorified in exercising judgement and wrath upon evil, and all things that come to pass are decreed and/or permitted for his own glory, as scripture declares.

knowing He's preventing some from being saved in your world right?
Man cannot come to God because he will not come to God, and he will not come to God because he hates God.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:10-11)


Man is dead in sin, and must be quickened in order to come to Christ.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)

It is not man's will that brings salvation, but the sovereign mercy of God.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)

In fact, you've yet to explain to me how Romans 9 can mean anything other than the unconditional election of God apart from the will of man. Please read that great chapter again and then respond to my points.

I suppose it's good for you to believe God controls all your decisions... that way, when you screw up you can blame God as though He is the One making the mistake!
No, I make the mistakes and commit the sins. Not of free will, but of a will that is bound to my nature. What is my nature? It has two aspects. The regenerate inward man, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which delights in the law of God, loves the Lord, and longs to please him.

And then, the flesh, that unredeemed humanity that lingers within me, which I shall not be free of until the redemption of my body. All believers share these two natures simultaneously, and there is an ever-present war between them in the life of every believer. This does not absolve me of personal responsibility, as I do in fact choose to sin. Thank the Lord we stand in grace, and sin is not inputted to us, as we are covered by the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith.

Read Romans 7, Paul sums this up far better than I can.

With all due respect brother, you are trying to challenge me with your opinions and rationalizations, but you are not providing scriptures to support your views, nor are you attempting to challenges the exegesis I've presented. The word of God is our standard of truth, not our fallible human sentiment. Please use the scriptures in your argumentation.
 
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Ted Lang

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Of course he permitted Adam to sin

Yep, that's some free will goin on...


God knew Adam would sin, and allowed him to sin

Oops, mo free will goin on here...


I make the mistakes and commit the sins

Hey!... Cut all that free will stuff out would'ya?


It is not man's will that brings salvation, but the sovereign mercy of God

Duh!... but man has to receive unless you think God is FORCING salvation on people?


I make the mistakes and commit the sins

You? You sure do exercise a lot of free will for a fella that claims he doesn't believe he has any ability to decide anything or not. How do you type?


And then, the flesh, that unredeemed humanity that lingers within me, which I shall not be free of until the redemption of my body

You should study Romans 8 and OVERCOME the flesh... it's doable thru the power of the Holy Ghost! :thumbsup:

Romans 8:13
For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
 
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ALoveDivine

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It seems you are still misunderstanding what I'm referring to by "free will". I agree with you that we make choices and are responsible for them. We just don't have a will outside of the context of our nature. We have more common ground than we may realize. So to avoid redundancy, I'll drop this "free will" debate, as it is leading nowhere.

it's doable thru the power of the Holy Ghost!
Yes, we are called to live a way of life characterized by holiness and loving service, and we can do so by yielding to the power of the Holy Spirit within us. It comes down to a style of life.

But we will not be completely free from sin until the redemption of our bodies on the last day. The idea of sinless perfection in the life of a Christian is heresy.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)
 
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Neogaia777

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Free will? Yes, we have it, but lets say you have a two o'clock important business meeting scheduled for say, tomorrow... There would have to be some sort of catastrophe or major emergency to keep you from that meeting, but what you do between then and there is completely up to you, you could visit a friend, or have a pool party, or go for a drive somewhere with your spouse, go out to dinner, a whole list of possibilities, of/from which, you get to chose, but you will (more than likely) be at that two o'clock meeting tomorrow, regardless of what you do between there and then...

The world has an appointment with God, and it cannot be avoided or changed, but there are a whole different slew of choices people can make between there and then, but none of it is going to change the business meeting appointment...

God Bless!
 
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Lollerskates

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Are those being saved (or entering into the Kingdom of God), few,(minority) or not?

Opinions?

Thanks, God Bless!

It is definitely few.

Reminds me of the South Park movie where heaven had a static population of around 1400, while hell was at 9,000,000,000 and rising exponentially.
 
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