Are There Really Two Gospels?

HebrewVaquero

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hebrewvaquero,

The law of Moses was the old covenant which you think wasn't abolished and yet you say nothing applies to you. Are you a flesh blood jew or a gentile proselyted into judaism. What particular synagogue do you go to?
Do you believe in the new covenant of Christ in his blood? What form of Judaism are you connected with.
Hebrews 8:6-7 says Christ is the mediator of the new and better covenant and that is why the first covenant was replaced. Now I know a bunch of different views but I would like to hear what you believe as your brand of judaism hopefully with no Talmudic/Rabbinic loop hole. LOL Jerry kelso
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Believe Yeshua's Blood satisfies the Old Covenant requirements for God to take us back.
 
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jerry kelso

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Believe Yeshua's Blood satisfies the Old Covenant requirements for God to take us back.

hebrewvaquero,

Thanks. The law of Moses was the old covenant. The bible says the new replaced the old. Hebrews 8:6-7. What is your interpretation of this verse. Why do you think the law of Moses is the new covenant? Jerry kelso
 
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HebrewVaquero

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hebrewvaquero,

Thanks. The law of Moses was the old covenant. The bible says the new replaced the old. Hebrews 8:6-7. What is your interpretation of this verse. Why do you think the law of Moses is the new covenant? Jerry kelso
Although I take Hebrews as holy scripture I do not accept every word of it as the very words of God.

That being said;
I don't think the Old Covenant was at fault, we are the ones at fault.

The New Covenant is a blood payment to reinstate the Old Covenant with the exception being; the Old Covenant is made New by being placed in our hearts through the Spirit of Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
 
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jerry kelso

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Although I take Hebrews as holy scripture I do not accept every word of it as the very words of God.

That being said;
I don't think the Old Covenant was at fault, we are the ones at fault.

The New Covenant is a blood payment to reinstate the Old Covenant with the exception being; the Old Covenant is made New by being placed in our hearts through the Spirit of Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

hebrewvaquero,

hebrewvaquero,

1. You don't believe the Bible is inerrant.
2. Adam sinned and was the fountain head for the human race. Some blame it on Satan because he was the first to sin and tempted Adam and Eve using the serpent. Because of sin I assume is your reason for us being at fault. This has nothing to do with the change of the old to new.
Hebrews 8 says that old covenant was replaced by the new covenant because of the weakness of the commandment though it was holy and good. Hebrews 8:6-7; Romans 7:12.
3. The whole book of Hebrews was written to show the contrasts and differences of the old covenant of Moses and the New Covenant of the law of Christ.
4. 2 Corinthians 3:7; But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
5. This is talking about the 10 commandments was the ministration of death and it's glory done away. Verse 13-16; And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament: which veil is done away in Christ, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart, Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
6. This was talking about the old covenant abolished.
7. Scripturally, the old covenant which was called the law of Moses as well as the Law of God was abolished. This was because of the weakness of the commandment. The ethics of how the mechanics work to live by are different than the new covenant.
8. The priesthood was changed, the ceremonial laws were abrogated, the civil law is now for disobedient in the ethic of Moses context. The moral law in the context of Moses ethic and the blessing and cursing system of Moses ethic was done away with.
9. The new testament is Christ blood and this is true. Matthew 26:28.
10. So how do you live the commandments of the old testament as a new covenant believer and which ones do you adhere to. Give an overall view of how a jew in the body of Christ lives in the church age and what is the basic definition of the old being made new and why that is important than to believe the old is totally different than the new. Most jews don't like the abolishment context because it seems to tear down the jewish way of life. Thanks Jerry kelso
 
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HebrewVaquero

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hebrewvaquero,

hebrewvaquero,

1. You don't believe the Bible is inerrant.
2. Adam sinned and was the fountain head for the human race. Some blame it on Satan because he was the first to sin and tempted Adam and Eve using the serpent. Because of sin I assume is your reason for us being at fault. This has nothing to do with the change of the old to new.
Hebrews 8 says that old covenant was replaced by the new covenant because of the weakness of the commandment though it was holy and good. Hebrews 8:6-7; Romans 7:12.
3. The whole book of Hebrews was written to show the contrasts and differences of the old covenant of Moses and the New Covenant of the law of Christ.
4. 2 Corinthians 3:7; But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
5. This is talking about the 10 commandments was the ministration of death and it's glory done away. Verse 13-16; And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament: which veil is done away in Christ, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart, Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
6. This was talking about the old covenant abolished.
7. Scripturally, the old covenant which was called the law of Moses as well as the Law of God was abolished. This was because of the weakness of the commandment. The ethics of how the mechanics work to live by are different than the new covenant.
8. The priesthood was changed, the ceremonial laws were abrogated, the civil law is now for disobedient in the ethic of Moses context. The moral law in the context of Moses ethic and the blessing and cursing system of Moses ethic was done away with.
9. The new testament is Christ blood and this is true. Matthew 26:28.
10. So how do you live the commandments of the old testament as a new covenant believer and which ones do you adhere to. Give an overall view of how a jew in the body of Christ lives in the church age and what is the basic definition of the old being made new and why that is important than to believe the old is totally different than the new. Most jews don't like the abolishment context because it seems to tear down the jewish way of life. Thanks Jerry kelso

You could of stopped at #1 lol!

Yes, I do believe there are errors in the New Testament.
Nothing that would lead people to Hell.

The Bible is to lead people to God
Not to be a idol.

That is why it is not perfect
Yet perfect for its intended purpose.
 
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jerry kelso

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You could of stopped at #1 lol!

Yes, I do believe there are errors in the New Testament.
Nothing that would lead people to Hell.

The Bible is to lead people to God
Not to be a idol.

That is why it is not perfect
Yet perfect for its intended purpose.

hebrewvaquero,

1. It depends on what you call error, but the bible is inerrant. What is an example of an error in the bible.

2. The bible does lead people to God. John 1:1 says, the word is God and it is his word given to men by inspiration from the Holy Ghost 2 Peter 1:21.

3. How people respond to the Bible is not God's fault. But seeing how we are to worship God only and his word is who he is and his word doesn't come back void and the fact it is truth that sets men free and it is true within itself it is always perfect.
People reject God all the time but this doesn't mean God is not perfect or true even though he has an intended purpose and destiny for man. So idolizing or not you cannot be right for he is spirit and truth within himself and it is not idolizing him because one loves the word and satan's counterfeits don't keep the word from being truth within itself. Feel free to explain yourself. Jerry kelso
 
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Berean777

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Although I take Hebrews as holy scripture I do not accept every word of it as the very words of God.

That being said;
I don't think the Old Covenant was at fault, we are the ones at fault.

The New Covenant is a blood payment to reinstate the Old Covenant with the exception being; the Old Covenant is made New by being placed in our hearts through the Spirit of Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34

Mark 2:22
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins".

You don't think the Old Covenant was at fault, yet within the same breath, you state that you don't accept every word of the New Testament as being the word of God, Hmmmm..........interesting!

Do you know what you have just disclosed?

You place the gospel of Jesus Christ as inferior and fallible as compared to the Old Testament, which means that you have chosen to be judged according to the law and not according to grace.

Since you give credence to the old covenant under the Mosiac law, then I believe that by you admitting that you place your hope in the Old Covenant, then you should be justifiably judged under the law.

Please listen, you can't have your right foot in the law and the left foot in grace, you are either for grace 100% or for the mosaic law 100%. In which case since you have admitted that your preference is to fall under the law, then that would differentiate my salvation under grace as a Christain, compared to yours. How can you say that you follow Jesus under the blood covenant of grace, when you have clearly made your preference known to men?

The old covenant was not made new, it was annulled and your wrong interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-34, is a mute point. However I will have to refute it based on truth, integrity and honesty of being fair to the author who wrote it. I believe that you have put words in the Old Testament author's mouth that he never intended to convey, by deliberately misrepresenting him.

Hebrew 8:7-13 is the apostolic commentary of Jeremiah 31:31-34, where the author writes....

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people.
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

However since you believe that your testimony trumps the 1st century apostolic Jewish church's testimony, then I must question your motives, especially when you tried to mislead me and others, in your previous post, when you said that the temple sacrifices in the future newly built temple will only be done in remembrance and not for salvation purpose.

It is my duty as a follower of Christ Jesus to bring you to light of what you said and how you easily write off the 1st century apostolic Jewish church, by declaring the fallibility of the Hebrew's writer. Hebrews is written with authority and control of all Jewish members of the church in Jerusalem. If the Hebrews writer erred, then it would not be authorised by the church as a control document. Since we have many copies of this letter with the apostolic seal on them, then it would confirm its authority and validity as authentic doctrine, that is approved by the church in Jerusalem.

But let me just also refute you on your misrepresentation of the Old Testament author.

Isaiah 28:15-18

15You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place.”

The above declaration from Isaiah is for Jews who continue with the Old Covenant of death and therefore make a lie their refuge, by continuing to practise falsehood.

What does Isaiah have to say as far as salvation is concerned....and how can two major prophets be in disagreement, if we are to entertain your misrepresentation of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic.

You see the gospel of Jesus Christ is the tested and precious cornerstone that is the sure foundation of God's spiritual temple, who are the body of believers, that is, the living stones.

Here we have THE gospel and the one and only path to salvation, that was not previously made available to the ancient old covenant Israelites, who were bound under the covenant WITH death, which is the law, that stated every one has fallen short of the law and is condemned to death. (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:23).

Isaiah doesn't stop there.....

18Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.

I am quite concerned at the agenda that Messianic's have and if you are anything to go by, when you make statements like these.....

The New Covenant is a blood payment to reinstate the Old Covenant with the exception being; the Old Covenant is made New by being placed in our hearts through the Spirit of Christ.

Two statements made by you, that denigrates our Lord and the payment with his life that he made on the cross at Calvary, in annulling the covenant of death, that was the mosaic law. Christ freed us from the mosaic law and it's ordinances and you said that his blood was shed, to give credence to the covenant with death, in a way to ratify it. This, if I may say so, is intentional blasphemy.

Then you emphasise that the old covenant with death was made knew by his blood, which totally misrepresents the Old Testament major prophets and calls God a liar. The Spirit of Christ is not founded on the old covenant practices and therefore, to say that the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, once and for all, is to reinstate the old covenant with death, and continued old covenant Jewish sacrificial system in a newly built temple in the future, is blasphemy that is against the Holy Ghost. In fact the Holy Ghost dwells in his own temple made without human hands, how could another temple be built with human hands and for you to make insinuations that the Spirit is conspiring with Messianic's, to build a physical temple outside of the temple of the body of believers, the living stones that he came to built the spiritual temple and the only temple that is to be built, on the cornerstone Christ Jesus.

Your agenda is in fact another gospel that is outside of the scope of the Christian Faith.

There is no ifs or buts, your intention is to undermine the gospel of Jesus Christ and I have proven it with evidence.
 
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Wgw

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It seems to me @HebrewVaquero that you are improperly prioritizing the Old Testament over the New, which is a greatly undesirable practice. It represents what I consider to be somewhat of a lopsided way of looking at Scripture; rather than seeing the New Testament as the fulfillment of OT prophecy, apparently, you regard it as in effect a mere appendix.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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It seems to me @HebrewVaquero that you are improperly prioritizing the Old Testament over the New, which is a greatly undesirable practice. It represents what I consider to be somewhat of a lopsided way of looking at Scripture; rather than seeing the New Testament as the fulfillment of OT prophecy, apparently, you regard it as in effect a mere appendix.
What Scriptures did Jesus teach?
What Scriptures did the Apostles use?

The New Testament is not the fulfillment of the Old Testament.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Jesus said; 'you search the scriptures To find eternal life, but the Scriptures speak of me'

Where in the Old Testament Scripture does it speak of Paul?

Jesus said; 'there is ONE teacher and He is that teacher'
 
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HebrewVaquero

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You don't think the Old Covenant was at fault, yet within the same breath, you state that you don't accept every word of the New Testament as being the word of God, Hmmmm..........interesting!

Do you know what you have just disclosed?

You place the gospel of Jesus Christ as inferior and fallible as compared to the Old Testament, which means that you have chosen to be judged according to the law and not according to grace.

Since you give credence to the old covenant under the Mosiac law, then I believe that by you admitting that you place your hope in the Old Covenant, then you should be justifiably judged under the law.

Please listen, you can't have your right foot in the law and the left foot in grace, you are either for grace 100% or for the mosaic law 100%. In which case since you have admitted that your preference is to fall under the law, then that would differentiate my salvation under grace as a Christain, compared to yours. How can you say that you follow Jesus under the blood covenant of grace, when you have clearly made your preference known to men?

The old covenant was not made new, it was annulled and your wrong interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-34, is a mute point. However I will have to refute it based on truth, integrity and honesty of being fair to the author who wrote it. I believe that you have put words in the Old Testament author's mouth that he never intended to convey, by deliberately misrepresenting him.

Hebrew 8:7-13 is the apostolic commentary of Jeremiah 31:31-34, where the author writes....



However since you believe that your testimony trumps the 1st century apostolic Jewish church's testimony, then I must question your motives, especially when you tried to mislead me and others, in your previous post, when you said that the temple sacrifices in the future newly built temple will only be done in remembrance and not for salvation purpose.

It is my duty as a follower of Christ Jesus to bring you to light of what you said and how you easily write off the 1st century apostolic Jewish church, by declaring the fallibility of the Hebrew's writer. Hebrews is written with authority and control of all Jewish members of the church in Jerusalem. If the Hebrews writer erred, then it would not be authorised by the church as a control document. Since we have many copies of this letter with the apostolic seal on them, then it would confirm its authority and validity as authentic doctrine, that is approved by the church in Jerusalem.

But let me just also refute you on your misrepresentation of the Old Testament author.

Isaiah 28:15-18



The above declaration from Isaiah is for Jews who continue with the Old Covenant of death and therefore make a lie their refuge, by continuing to practise falsehood.

What does Isaiah have to say as far as salvation is concerned....and how can two major prophets be in disagreement, if we are to entertain your misrepresentation of Jeremiah 31:31-34.



You see the gospel of Jesus Christ is the tested and precious cornerstone that is the sure foundation of God's spiritual temple, who are the body of believers, that is, the living stones.

Here we have THE gospel and the one and only path to salvation, that was not previously made available to the ancient old covenant Israelites, who were bound under the covenant WITH death, which is the law, that stated every one has fallen short of the law and is condemned to death. (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:23).

Isaiah doesn't stop there.....



I am quite concerned at the agenda that Messianic's have and if you are anything to go by, when you make statements like these.....



Two statements made by you, that denigrates our Lord and the payment with his life that he made on the cross at Calvary, in annulling the covenant of death, that was the mosaic law. Christ freed us from the mosaic law and it's ordinances and you said that his blood was shed, to give credence to the covenant with death, in a way to ratify it. This, if I may say so, is intentional blasphemy.

Then you emphasise that the old covenant with death was made knew by his blood, which totally misrepresents the Old Testament major prophets and calls God a liar. The Spirit of Christ is not founded on the old covenant practices and therefore, to say that the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, once and for all, is to reinstate the old covenant with death, and continued old covenant Jewish sacrificial system in a newly built temple in the future, is blasphemy that is against the Holy Ghost. In fact the Holy Ghost dwells in his own temple made without human hands, how could another temple be built with human hands and for you to make insinuations that the Spirit is conspiring with Messianic's, to build a physical temple outside of the temple of the body of believers, the living stones that he came to built the spiritual temple and the only temple that is to be built, on the cornerstone Christ Jesus.

Your agenda is not one of God and your gospel and your groups gospel for that matter, is in fact another gospel that is outside of the scope of the Christian Faith.

There is no ifs or buts, your intention is to undermine the gospel of Jesus Christ and I have proven it with evidence and in this matter, I have found you to be a crypto Jew.
You misrepresent, twist and contort what I believe as a orthodox on a heretic hunt, you are no different than your predecessors who killed the saints.

Actually Isaiah 28:15-18 is more likely about those who think death won't touch them because they said a sinners prayer and declare they 'believe'.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

The lie is the Law is abolished
And
The falsehood is cheap grace

Wake up!
 
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jerry kelso

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hebrewvaquero,

1. It depends on what you call error, but the bible is inerrant. What is an example of an error in the bible.

2. The bible does lead people to God. John 1:1 says, the word is God and it is his word given to men by inspiration from the Holy Ghost 2 Peter 1:21.

3. How people respond to the Bible is not God's fault. But seeing how we are to worship God only and his word is who he is and his word doesn't come back void and the fact it is truth that sets men free and it is true within itself it is always perfect.
People reject God all the time but this doesn't mean God is not perfect or true even though he has an intended purpose and destiny for man. So idolizing or not you cannot be right for he is spirit and truth within himself and it is not idolizing him because one loves the word and satan's counterfeits don't keep the word from being truth within itself. Feel free to explain yourself. Jerry kelso

hebrewvaquero,

1. I haven't heard from you but I did want to add one more thing. Your whole basis that the law of Moses was not abolished is because Christ was the testament concerning his blood payment. Christ was not a blood payment because he gave his life freely. If he paid in this respect he owed something then he would have not given his life freely. He was a ransom for all, but not with money, but with suffering. We were not a substitute as a qualified candidate for man was, cannot, and never will be perfect in living the law completely everyday and for the bigger fact that he was born in sin.

2. If Christ was a substitutionary blood payment in this respect then all the world would be saved because the debt would have been cancelled and satisfied and there would be no reason for repenting and grace given and sins would be forgiven, past, present and future in each individual's lives automatically when Calvary happened and Christ died and man would no longer be born into sin. Do you understand this context? Feel free to explain the post before as well. Thanks! Jerry Kelso
 
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HebrewVaquero

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hebrewvaquero,

1. I haven't heard from you but I did want to add one more thing. Your whole basis that the law of Moses was not abolished is because Christ was the testament concerning his blood payment. Christ was not a blood payment because he gave his life freely. If he paid in this respect he owed something then he would have not given his life freely. He was a ransom for all, but not with money, but with suffering. We were not a substitute as a qualified candidate for man was, cannot, and never will be perfect in living the law completely everyday and for the bigger fact that he was born in sin.

2. If Christ was a substitutionary blood payment in this respect then all the world would be saved because the debt would have been cancelled and satisfied and there would be no reason for repenting and grace given and sins would be forgiven, past, present and future in each individual's lives automatically when Calvary happened and Christ died and man would no longer be born into sin. Do you understand this context? Feel free to explain the post before as well. Thanks! Jerry Kelso
•God made a blood covenant with Abraham and his descendants.
•God confirmed the blood covenant with the descendants at Mount Sinai.
•The descendants broke the covenant by committing adultery with other gods.
•God divorced Israel for adultery as permitted by Law.
•The Law states no one can take a wife back after they have divorced her and she has been with another.
•For God to take Israel back He would have to break the blood covenant.
•For God so loved, He paid in blood the price to break the blood covenant to bring her back.
 
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jerry kelso

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•God made a blood covenant with Abraham and his descendants.
•God confirmed the blood covenant with the descendants at Mount Sinai.
•The descendants broke the covenant by committing adultery with other gods.
•God divorced Israel for adultery as permitted by Law.
•The Law states no one can take a wife back after they have divorced her and she has been with another.
•For God to take Israel back He would have to break the blood covenant.
•For God so loved, He paid in blood the price to break the blood covenant to bring her back.

hebrewvaquero,

1. Not taking a wife back is the physical and even Moses was allowed to give a bill of divorcement and even fornication is one reason divorce is permissible but God doesn't ok divorce.

2. The covenant given to David in 1 Chronicles 28 and begun in actuality with Solomon showed an eternal covenant based on obedience. Christ was proclaiming the same message of the physical kingdom which was the KoH and the spiritual aspect conditioned by obedience in the KoG. Because the jews rejected the spiritual KoG they could not receive the physical KoH.

3. Paul showed that the gift and callings of Israel were without repentance and would still come true when the time of the gentiles would come in. Romans 11:25-29.
Jesus didn't deny the kingdom coming and the position of the jews and apostles because he knew that the time was not in the church age and God the Father knows it has to be the restitution of all things which hasn't happened yet.

4. Just like the law of Moses couldn't hold back or interfere or keep the new covenant in his blood from coming to pass neither can the rejections of Israel do away with the fact that they will obey as a nation in the future tribulation when their national light will be about snuffed out. Remember too, most believed that Israel would never come back as a valid nation but they did in 1948 which was almost 2000 years after Christ died and maybe a little less from 70 A.D.

5. So I don't believe you have no scripture for your assumption of not being able to take back a wife. Did you get that from a rabbinical law or the Talmud which for the most part are traditions of men? LOL Jerry kelso
 
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Berean777

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You misrepresent, twist and contort what I believe as a orthodox on a heretic hunt, you are no different than your predecessors who killed the saints.

Actually Isaiah 28:15-18 is more likely about those who think death won't touch them because they said a sinners prayer and declare they 'believe'.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

The lie is the Law is abolished
And
The falsehood is cheap grace

Wake up!

The law is not abolished, rather it is written in thr heart, as Jesus taught to Love God with all your mind, heart and soul and to do likewise to your neighbor.

What is abolished is the following....

1. Judaic practice centred around physical temple worship.
2. Temple sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins.
3. Observances of Jewish Ordinances (Mitzvahs)

In order to be in Christ one must leave his Jewishness of the flesh and to become a new creation in Christ.

How can one make the blood atonenent of Christ as one that is subservient to the above points.

How could there be a physical temple in Jerusalem, after Jesus said true worshippers will no longer look to a temple in Jerusalem, rather they will worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Jesus Christ is the law and when we make him our refuge, then all our external efforts are vain, as the author of ecclesiastics declares VANITY OF VANITIES.

How could a literal temple be built to continue sacrificing, when the intent is for the forgiveness of sins. To persue Judaism according to old covenant practices, is to make the once and for all sacrifice of the lamb of God to no avail in one's life, why I ask?

To have another outside temple to the temple of the Holy Ghost is to erect something that is abominable to God in the way the Babylonians built the tower of Babel to reach God. You see your Judaic practices along with the physical outward temple and its sacrifices and ordinances is not the new thing that God did for our salvation, neither did Jesus tell the Samaritan women at the well will be the acceptable practice. Neither is the Holy Ghost conspiring nor advocating you or your group, to build a temple outside of his spiritual temple that the Living Stones represent, who are of the body of Christ.

Waking up friend, is to rediscover God through spiritual practices and inward keeping of the law, not related to outward observances as far as salvation is concerned. What God did is not the same of the old thing, rather he completely overhauled the pharisical religious system of the past and brought all to him in spiritual oneness, that has God dwelling in the temple of the body and not a physical temple made by human hands.

It would be an abomination to build a physical temple for the purpose to do sacrifice according to the old Jewish practices. This would not be a new thing, rather the same of the old thing

You people need to come back to the realisation that you can't go it alone in your own ways. It would be best that your group join with the main body of Christ, by divorcing yourself geneologically from fleshly Jewishness and to adopt a new spiritual Jewishness that has the faith in them, rather than outside tools as a requirement to worship. The Old Covenant Jewish practice was so cumbersome, it was like preparing a space shuttle to launch and much time went into preparing to follow ordinances to the detail before the worship even begun. Jesus said you don't need to do all that anymore, I have lifted up your burden and now it is a simple matter of entering your closet and praying individually to God in spirit, for this is what the Father requests.

Notice how different the new thing that God made is. Are we to follow God and his Christ or are we to continue in our own fashioned ways.

When Jonah preached to the men of Nineveh, they renounced their old ways. I think that it is high time that Messianic's and Jews renounce their old ways and come and hold hands with the Men of Nineveh and the rest of Christianity. Jews need to let go, as the song goes "Let it go".

When you guys realise that through the prophets of old the blessings will come to all your people, when you do just that. Maybe even all Jews of this generation will be saved, now don't you want that?

So do what Peter did by electing the church in Babylon Iraq as a second church tied the church in Jerusalem. Because you can't circumvent what Jesus said about the Men of Nineveh and certainly you and your group will be swimming against God's waves if you don't adhere to his formulea and be reconciled to his handy work. You know very well that his handy work is there and available for all Jews, with the hope that the third will also come as the 11th hour workmen.

Rather than having prayers to protect you from God's handy work, come and embrace it for the sake of the fleshly sons of Jacob without Christ who are all hell bound.

So let us serve one another through the new way of worship that the Father approves of.
 
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corinth77777

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It seems a possibility that..if There are not 2 gospels...that either
1 ...the gospel of atonement...is the one that is for now.
2. The gospel of the kingdom of God..is also inclusive of the gospel of the atonement
3. The writers were writing to..(as proposed here by some ....)the Jews and therefore as mentioned they just needed to believe he was the king.

Well I like number 2

For number 3 is difficult to proof text the timing of revelation as if Jesus never taught of his death, burial, and resurrection before his death..anywhere when it was prophesied in scripture...while it's possible..there seems to be no proof.

Some assumption seem interesting though considering I belive there is a diff between the kog and koh..and Jesus Christ. VS. Chist Jesus....sense the kingdom of heaven..will eventually include all....then it seems more likely that the gospel of the kingdom is inclusive of the atonement....as a body has many members and -as the eyes are good to see so are the hands good to use to eat what is seen. But if a person only had hands with no eyes then the purpose to feed the body is of no effect. God is his word...so let his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
 
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jerry kelso

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It seems a possibility that..if There are not 2 gospels...that either
1 ...the gospel of atonement...is the one that is for now.
2. The gospel of the kingdom of God..is also inclusive of the gospel of the atonement
3. The writers were writing to..(as proposed here by some ....)the Jews and therefore as mentioned they just needed to believe he was the king.

Well I like number 2

For number 3 is difficult to proof text the timing of revelation as if Jesus never taught of his death, burial, and resurrection before his death..anywhere when it was prophesied in scripture...while it's possible..there seems to be no proof.

Some assumption seem interesting though considering I belive there is a diff between the kog and koh..and Jesus Christ. VS. Chist Jesus....sense the kingdom of heaven..will eventually include all....then it seems more likely that the gospel of the kingdom is inclusive of the atonement....as a body has many members and -as the eyes are good to see so are the hands good to use to eat what is seen. But if a person only had hands with no eyes then the purpose to feed the body is of no effect. God is his word...so let his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

corinth77777,

1. KoH is the earthly sphere of the physical kingdom and the KoH reign is on earth connected with the restitution of all things. Matthew 4:17 Repent for the KoH is at hand. The physical kingdom is the Davidic kingdom Isaiah 9:6-7 which is an eternal covenant they are promised through their covenants in Genesis 15.
The spiritual aspect of the KoH have things contained in it that are spiritual.

2. KoG in it's spiritual aspect was being born again to gain entrance into the physical KoH. Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20 and John 3:5-7. We are never told to seek the KoH.
The physical aspect of the KoG is the whole universe of which the KoH is but a small part of.

3. The parallel passages of the two implying both being the same is because the KoH is the smaller part of the KoG universal. There are distinctions that are made that can be said of one and not the other. These two distinctions need to be understood for the gospels proper context under the Mosaic law and the Kingdom message and the redemptive revelation they had so the gospel of the death and resurrection under the new covenant can be properly contrasted and understood. Jerry kelso

3. The physical aspect of the KoG is the whole universe of which the earthly sphere is a small part.
2. Repenting had
 
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corinth77777

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corinth77777,

1. KoH is the earthly sphere of the physical kingdom and the KoH reign is on earth connected with the restitution of all things. Matthew 4:17 Repent for the KoH is at hand. The physical kingdom is the Davidic kingdom Isaiah 9:6-7 which is an eternal covenant they are promised through their covenants in Genesis 15.
The spiritual aspect of the KoH have things contained in it that are spiritual.

2. KoG in it's spiritual aspect was being born again to gain entrance into the physical KoH. Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20 and John 3:5-7. We are never told to seek the KoH.
The physical aspect of the KoG is the whole universe of which the KoH is but a small part of.

3. The parallel passages of the two implying both being the same is because the KoH is the smaller part of the KoG universal. There are distinctions that are made that can be said of one and not the other. These two distinctions need to be understood for the gospels proper context under the Mosaic law and the Kingdom message and the redemptive revelation they had so the gospel of the death and resurrection under the new covenant can be properly contrasted and understood. Jerry kelso

3. The physical aspect of the KoG is the whole universe of which the earthly sphere is a small part.
2. Repenting had
I can agree that a piece of a whole...has a Seperate name.....scared to assume other aspects of the term gospel..But I do like Dallas Willard's take on it. How would you clarify or explain..The kingdom that comes with no observation...or the kingdom with in...and do u believe Jews still had to keep the law after Jesus's death?
 
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jerry kelso

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I can agree that a piece of a whole...has a Seperate name.....scared to assume other aspects of the term gospel..But I do like Dallas Willard's take on it. How would you clarify or explain..The kingdom that comes with no observation...or the kingdom with in...and do u believe Jews still had to keep the law after Jesus's death?
I can agree that a piece of a whole...has a Seperate name.....scared to assume other aspects of the term gospel..But I do like Dallas Willard's take on it. How would you clarify or explain..The kingdom that comes with no observation...or the kingdom with in...and do u believe Jews still had to keep the law after Jesus's death?

corinth77777,

Sorry for the late reply as I have been out of town and hadn't realized you responded.

1. The Kingdom that comes with no observation is the kingdom with in. This kingdom was the Kingdom of God in its spiritual context concerning salvation.
Salvation has always been about a sacrifice starting with the Messianic prophecy of Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This resulted in the cross where salvation became the result.

2. Luke 17:20; the pharisees were asking about when the physical kingdom of God should come. The physical Kingdom of God is the universal kingdom. The physical reign on earth is called the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew. The earthly sphere is a small part of the universal kingdom and in this respect they are basically the same. Also, the Kingdom of Heaven will be united with the holy city the new jerusalem and the new heaven and the new earth after the GWTJ the KoH will be given back to the Father from the son to be the KoG all in all for earthly KoH will be in complete harmony with the universal Kingdom of God.

3. The jews were backslidden in the covenant of law under the KoH and the KoG message. Obedience to repentance was the theme of this KoH message (Matthew 4:17). There would be no physical kingdom reign unless they had a holy heart and repented. This is what the Sermon on the Mount was all about for the jews. Blessed are they that mourn(repent) for they shall be comforted. Hungering and thirsting, being meek, pure in heart and peacemakers would be the blessing for obedience and for the nation of Israel to be at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4).

4. This is why Christ said, the KoG spiritual aspect of repentance would come with no observation or to be visible physically because it comes in obedience in the heart which would result the outward manifestation of the witness to the world as the salt and light of the world. This is the historical context of the KoH and the KoG message to the jews, only for the jews Matthew 10:6-7. Matthew 6:33 says seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. They were never told to seek the KoH to receive salvation.

5. Concerning the jews living the law after Jesus died. The answer is that they were to have the law forever. However, it would be under the guise of the new covenant for it was not to be like the law of Moses when he brought them out of Egypt. Why? There culture was wrapped up in the types and shadows and the whole law and was their whole identity because they were given the oracles of God and brought the Messiah to the world.

6. Today, the new covenant has not yet been made with the nation of Israel so they can fulfill their covenants about the land in Genesis 15 and the Kingdom as in Isaiah 2:2-4 and 9:6-7. These are the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants.

7. Today, the jew and gentile are in one body alike and the jew can still be a jew culturally but they cannot live the law under the old ethic of the weakness of the commandment that made them live to the frailty of man from self effort. They have the better promises of the new covenant. Doing mitzvahs and training their children about the word with the jewish methods etc. and celebrating the jewish feast which were eternal from the beginning are fine. Even if a gentile were to keep a dietary law like not eating pork because it is not good for one physically is fine.

8. Paul used the law to win jews not to get them to live the old ethic which would cost the struggle and make the person fall into sin.

9. The jews cannot keep the law of moses because it is the old covenant and the new covenant replaced it. Hebrews 8:6-7.

10. The jews believe that the law was not abolished but only the self righteous works or just the sacrificial law etc. or something to that effect.

11. I believe the law of Moses was one whole unit and ethic for a specific time till the seed should come. It has to be understood from the whole of what it was, why it was, the time factor, how it made them respond and why the Lord had to fulfill it during his earthly ministry and why he satisfied the law and why it had to be abolished after it was satisfied. They cannot even keep it perfectly if they tried because there is no temple.

12. They are still blinded in the reading of the old testament to this day.

13. It is not about being lawless for law was before the Mosaic law just like there was grace and love. However, one has to understand the correct statements in the correct context and put them together to reconcile them properly understand and comprehend and rightly divide the word. Let me know if this helps and if you want to know more details or want to interject something. Food for thought. Jerry kelso
 
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@jerrykelso post #159 ... excellent summary / insights.

Who was the immediate audience in the Abrahamic Covenant?
Who was / is the audience since the Cross?

It is only because of the Cross that we who are known as “Christian” exist today.
Was the Cross an afterthought with God? No. Before the beginning of space and time our Creator knew precisely what He would do in every circumstance and situation. God is / was never left out of any aspect of creation and human existence.

Did the Apostles die as Christians, or as Hebrews anticipating their Messiah? Did they “switch” from acknowledging Jesus as the Jewish Messiah to confessing Him as Savior for everyone, as in Romans 10:8-13?

The Apostles and Hebrew folk clearly did not understand the enormity of Jesus’ statements in these references: Matthew 16:21, Mark 8:31, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 9:22, Luke 13:32-33, Luke 24:13-35, John 20:24-29. They didn’t have a clue about His crucifixion, death, burial and ressurection. They traveled with Him for 3 years without once recognizing Him as Savior for everyone, Jew and Gentile, John 12:34, and then He was dead, and they fled. The Kingdom of God on earth that He foretold didn’t happen in their lifetime. How disappointed could they have been? Beyond measure!
A similar exclamation to that of John the Baptist must have been repeated over and over and over....... “Art Thou He, or do we look for another?”

They had no concept whatsoever that Jesus, their Messiah, came with a mission: Redemption, prior to the Cross, for the Hebrew folk as a people group, a nation, in accordance with the Covenant of Abraham, and salvation for each Jew and each Gentile after the Cross, with each individual confession of Jesus as Savior.

Rather than “Art Thou He?” the proclamation then and now is “I’ve just seen Jesus, and I’ll never be the same.”
 
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