Are the bible stories real?

[razeontherock]

Ya know; if you wanna believe it could float and carry all those animals, that's fine; I ain't gonna try to take that away from you. I'd rather stay on the subject.

This IS the subject Again, feasability studies have been done, and the ark checks out just fine.

You've answered a bunch of questions that nobody is asking and neglected to answer the one question I did ask.

Rather, the answer is more complex than you care to examine

 

[Ken-1122]

This IS the subject Again, feasability studies have been done, and the ark checks out just fine.

Okay we can talk about Noah's Ark if you wish. How about the water?
If the entire world was covered with water, was it fresh water? or salt water; and how did fresh water life survive in salt water or visa versa? And how did the fresh water and salt water separate themselves without leaving a trace once the water recinded?

Rather, the answer is more complex than you care to examine

The question is; Do you believe Noah's Ark really happened. Now why is that a complex question; and why does it require examination on my part?

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

No! I asked why doesn't GOD speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize.

He does. That's what the Bible is, and the Church. We all have the choice (and responsibility) to accept that or not.

 

[razeontherock]

Okay we can talk about Noah's Ark if you wish. How about the water?
If the entire world was covered with water, was it fresh water? or salt water; and how did fresh water life survive in salt water or visa versa? And how did the fresh water and salt water separate themselves without leaving a trace once the water recinded?

While I'm no expert on these details, fresh / salt is a false dichotomy. Instead we find degrees of salinity in the real world. Neither is there a real concern for how things survived; death was the intended consequence. Neither can we say that the receeded waters "left no trace."

Water is conserved, and fresh water sources go through the distillation process.

The question is; Do you believe Noah's Ark really happened. Now why is that a complex question; and why does it require examination on my part?

But that is not really your question. There are LOTS of OT stories, the ark is just one. My salvation doesn't depend on it's literalness. In fact there is no current application of any literal history, while there's plenty of current application for the deeper Truths it speaks of.

 

[Ken-1122]

While I'm no expert on these details, fresh / salt is a false dichotomy.

How could you call it a false dichotomy? The fact is, all natural water on Earth is either salt water or fresh water; that is not a false statement; not a false dichotomy.

Instead we find degrees of salinity in the real world.

I’m talking about fresh water in the lakes and salt water of the seas. How did they get separated?

Neither is there a real concern for how things survived; death was the intended consequence.

I’m just asking if you have an opinion on how they survived. If you don’t have an answer; it’s okay

But that is not really your question.

Yes it is my question. Care to answer it?

There are LOTS of OT stories, the ark is just one.

And I’m asking you of this specific one.

My salvation doesn't depend on it's literalness.

Nobody is asking about your salvation, I’m just asking if you believe the story is true.

In fact there is no current application of any literal history, while there's plenty of current application for the deeper Truths it speaks of.

Humm... I guess this means you aren't going to answer the question huh?


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

He does. That's what the Bible is, and the Church. We all have the choice (and responsibility) to accept that or not.

As I said before, the bible and the church are a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof of what they say is true. That's not the same as God communicating to me in a way that I recognize and understand.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

How could you call it a false dichotomy? The fact is, all natural water on Earth is either salt water or fresh water; that is not a false statement; not a false dichotomy.

I’m talking about fresh water in the lakes and salt water of the seas. How did they get separated?

That's pretty simple. As the water level lowers, you've got your separation. Each lake has a different composition. River water changes all the time. Ocean water is not the same off Nova Scotia and Cuba; it is vastly different. Also, I see no way that the water of any lake is the same water as was in it 4000 years ago.

This is much more complex than merely "salt and fresh water."

I’m just asking if you have an opinion on how they survived. If you don’t have an answer; it’s okay

If the flood were literally true, you would expect that most species didn't survive, and that Ev took place after the fact to diversify life from that time.

Nobody is asking about your salvation, I’m just asking if you believe the story is true.

Why pretend the 2 are separate? The Bible is a book about G-d, for man, so that we may be reconciled with Him. Period! Whether this is any literal history or not doesn't affect the greater purpose, so I have no reason to expect any Divine revelation on this question. I know the story contains Truth, but I don't know if it was an actual event. I think it may have been, and there are plenty of ways that the text could actually be speaking of a localized flood, which doesn't seem to disagree with physical evidence.

 

[Ken-1122]

I know the story contains Truth, but I don't know if it was an actual event. I think it may have been, and there are plenty of ways that the text could actually be speaking of a localized flood, which doesn't seem to disagree with physical evidence.

Finally! The answer I was looking for. Thanks for answering my question

Ken

 

[drich0150]

If he wrote everything down, gave me access to it and I refused to read it, I would be the blame.

Raze pointed out that He did in fact write everything down in the bible to which you responded:

Sorry! That doesn't work for me.

So again, "who is to blame?"

Understand that direct communication with God is possible, but rarely occurs through a burning bush to someone who has never before believed. I believe this has only happened once. What generally happens is that we have to show a measure of responsibility to what we have already been given, before we are given any more. As it is all have been given the bible. Those who are faithful to it will be given even more. those who are not what they have been given will be taken away and given to someone else.

If you want to communicate with God then, you will have to humble yourself and become faithful to what He has already provided you with.

 

[Ken-1122]

Raze pointed out that He did in fact write everything down in the bible to which you responded:

So again, "who is to blame?"

As I told Raz, the bible ain’t God’s words, it’s a bunch of men claiming to have the authority to speak for God and everybody buying it. Well I don’t buy it. If God is all powerful he is powerful enough to speak for himself.

Understand that direct communication with God is possible, but rarely occurs through a burning bush to someone who has never before believed. ........
If you want to communicate with God then, you will have to humble yourself and become faithful to what He has already provided you with.

So let me see if I’ve got this straight; for those who believe, God provides proof. But for those who really need the proof, the ones who don’t believe; for those people he remains hidden. Don’t you find that rather convenient?

K

 

[drich0150]

As I told Raz, the bible ain’t God’s words, it’s a bunch of men claiming to have the authority to speak for God and everybody buying it. Well I don’t buy it. If God is all powerful he is powerful enough to speak for himself.

How do you know that He doesn't? Just because He has not spoken to you do it mean God does not speak to any of us? Has the President spoken with you?

So let me see if I’ve got this straight; for those who believe, God provides proof.

Yes

But for those who really need the proof, the ones who don’t believe; for those people he remains hidden. Don’t you find that rather convenient?

Those people do not "need proof" any more or less than those who have faith.
The problem you have partially identified is that '"those people" who do not have, nor want faith, want proof in order to be forced into belief. God has shown over and over and over again He values those who want to believe and obey, over those who are forced to do so. So for those who want to know God, a path has been provided. For those who do not want to know God, they too have been provided a path, so that they may avoid God completely in this life. That way no matter the path we choose for this life (and the next,) the choice we make will be an uninfluenced (by looming consequences) choice or representation of our hearts.

So in short, God provides "proof" for all those who Ask, Seek and Knock as outlined in Luke 11. God also provides plausible deniabity for those who wish to live apart from God. Why? So that when your eternal fate is handed to you, you will know this judgment reflects the truest intention of your heart.

For all who have seen God and Heaven want God and Heaven for themselves. it's just not all that want God and Heaven want them for the right reasons. This life allows us to choose on the basis of the "right reasoning" only.

 

[Ken-1122]

How do you know that He doesn't? Just because He has not spoken to you do it mean God does not speak to any of us? Has the President spoken with you?[/color]

If the president of the United States had an important message for you, and instead of delivering it himself, he sent 100 people to give you his message, and each messanger had a different message so you recieved 100 different messages, would it be too much for you to ask him to give you the message himself?

Those people do not "need proof" any more or less than those who have faith.

The problem you have partially identified is that '"those people" who do not have, nor want faith, want proof in order to be forced into belief. God has shown over and over and over again He values those who want to believe and obey, over those who are forced to do so

Providing proof does not force anybody to do anything, it mearly provides an informed choice.

Ken

 

[drich0150]

If the president of the United States had an important message for you, and instead of delivering it himself, he sent 100 people to give you his message, and each messenger had a different message so you received 100 different messages, would it be too much for you to ask him to give you the message himself?

He does, if you ask, Seek and knock for it.

Providing proof does not force anybody to do anything, it merely provides an informed choice.

If God stood before you, or came to you in a burning bush or swept you away to heaven and you witnessed all of the things He is now keeping from you, then the "choice" you make will not be from the heart it will be an intellectual choice where you will have weighed all of the benefits against all of the negatives. Your "informed decision" will be of a what's in it for me nature, rather than a do I want to know/love God, and I am willing to give all that I have to do so, decision. (Fore that is who Heaven has been set aside for.)

Who could honestly say if they stood before The Lake of Fire" that they would choose anything other than what God offered?(even if it was substandard)
Now if we are to be with God for an eternity how long before we grew discontent and resentful for have only been given this decision? How long before we see the good gift of Heaven as being substandard? 1000 years? 10000? A million?

..How long did it take Lucifer and his followers to come to that very conclusion?

Time is irrelevant what is not is the condition of our hearts. whether we have a million years to decide or 75 our heart will be the same. Placing us in a segregated state of Heavenly ignorance simply accelerates (for us) what God already knows. So when you are judged, their will be no doubt in your mind the judgment was just. You will not spend an eternity wondering why you were separated from God.

 

[Ken-1122]

[/size]
If God stood before you, or came to you in a burning bush or swept you away to heaven and you witnessed all of the things He is now keeping from you, then the "choice" you make will not be from the heart it will be an intellectual choice where you will have weighed all of the benefits against all of the negatives. Your "informed decision" will be of a what's in it for me nature, rather than a do I want to know/love God, and I am willing to give all that I have to do so, decision. (Fore that is who Heaven has been set aside for.)

Who could honestly say if they stood before The Lake of Fire" that they would choose anything other than what God offered?(even if it was substandard)
Now if we are to be with God for an eternity how long before we grew discontent and resentful for have only been given this decision? How long before we see the good gift of Heaven as being substandard? 1000 years? 10000? A million?

..How long did it take Lucifer and his followers to come to that very conclusion?

Time is irrelevant what is not is the condition of our hearts. whether we have a million years to decide or 75 our heart will be the same. Placing us in a segregated state of Heavenly ignorance simply accelerates (for us) what God already knows. So when you are judged, their will be no doubt in your mind the judgment was just. You will not spend an eternity wondering why you were separated from God.

If God approached me, or swept me away to heaven for a brief moment, and he were as wonderful, kind, compassionate and everything you guys claim him to be, I would love him and that love would come from my heart. Sure I might also intellectually conclude being with a loving person in a wonderful place is better than being with an evil person in a horrible place; but my love for him would come from my heart! So what's so bad about that?

Ken

 

[drich0150]

If God approached me, or swept me away to heaven for a brief moment, and he were as wonderful, kind, compassionate and everything you guys claim him to be, I would love him and that love would come from my heart. Sure I might also intellectually conclude being with a loving person in a wonderful place is better than being with an evil person in a horrible place; but my love for him would come from my heart! So what's so bad about that?

Ken

If it came from there then nothing you could do intelectually could stop that now.

 

[Ken-1122]

If it came from there then nothing you could do intelectually could stop that now.

If such love did come from my heart, I wouldn't want to do anything about it intellectually to stop it.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Bible stories such as the ones you're sharing are meant to illustrate a point. They are almost certainly not true stories. Have you ever had someone use an illustration to make a point? Perhaps they used fictional characters to help make their point be known.

So how do you tell fact from fiction?

Ken

 

[aiki]

...I asked why doesn't GOD speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize. The bible and it's adherents are a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof...

In what way, exactly, would God have to speak to you so that you would recognize it as Him speaking?

What proof do you have that the Bible is as you describe: "a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof." What proof do you think they should have provided?

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

In what way, exactly, would God have to speak to you so that you would recognize it as Him speaking?

Something like what you do; english in an audible voice.

What proof do you have that the Bible is as you describe: "a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof." What proof do you think they should have provided?

Selah.

a voice that I recognize as God's saying; "this man speaks for me"

Ken

 

[aiki]

In what way, exactly, would God have to speak to you so that you would recognize it as Him speaking? Something like what you do; english in an audible voice.

And if He did speak to you this way, would you drop to your knees in grateful submission to Him, yielding the rest of your life to whatever He wished? Would you set aside every aspiration, every goal, to wait upon Him? This is what seeing God your Maker face-to-face would require. But unlike those of us who come to God through faith in, and love for, Him, a personal appearance and speech from God of the sort you seem to want would remove any choice you might have had to serve and obey Him.

You know, God did more than just speak in an understandable, audible language to people. According to the Bible, he took on human form in the person of Christ and lived among His creatures for some thirty-odd years. In spite of all the miracles that He did, His resurrection from the grave, and the powerful impact He has had on cultures all over the globe, all that has been required for people like you to dismiss these things entirely has been the passage of time.

The Bible tell us that God speaks to all of His creatures through what He has made. The existence of the universe proclaims loudly that God is; the beauty, complexity, order, balance and creativity evident in the universe speak of God's character; the power and vastness of space, the billions of galaxies each containing millions of planets and stars - all speak to God's omnipotence and transcendence. And it is because this is so that the Bible says,

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Do you doubt the existence of Napolean, or Shakespeare, or Alexander the Great? How about Einstein, or Hitler, or Babe Ruth? None of these people have spoken to you in person.

What proof do you have that the Bible is as you describe: "a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof." What proof do you think they should have provided?

a voice that I recognize as God's saying; "this man speaks for me"

Why would you be satisfied to listen to a man speak for God when God Himself has spoken to you? I mean, if He has spoken once, why not again, and again, and again?

Why isn't the fact that other men have been convinced that the Bible is the Word of God not been the least convincing to you? Many of these men were at one time just as skeptical as you. Did they have a change of mind because they were all just not as smart, or careful, or as skeptical as you?

Selah.