Are the bible stories real?

[Ken-1122]

It does. The Hebrew word for it, or rather the correct grammar is accurately translated heavens (small "h" meaning sky.)[/size][/font]
gen 10: 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens;

Actually it says; "let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach into heaven" I mean why would they build a tower that just reaches into the sky and stops there?

Respectfully God has given all of us the truth, and as you said the conversation should be over. however in this regard God's truth to us, is often tested by non believers, as if Satan himself were testing the boundaries, knowledge and wisdom of God. Why hasn't our "conversations" been deemed over? If we take this liberty do you believe Satan would not?

God does not speak to non-believers the way he spoke to Satan according to the bible; thus, our conversation never even began.

Perhaps we simply do not know how to track kola bears and Kangaroos over vast expanses of water.

Point is, if they ever existed in the middle east, we would be able to track it.

K

 

[ebia]

So who/what is the source of evil?

K

Scripture isnt doesnt seem very concerned with answering that question. It's more concerned with what God is doing about it

 

[drich0150]

Actually it says; "let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach into heaven" I mean why would they build a tower that just reaches into the sky and stops there?

Actually, Actually the NKJV reads as I cut and pasted it. (heavens) Also we can look at the context in which the Hebrew word is defined and taken:
שָׁמַיִם
(shamayim) Means:
1) heaven, heavens, sky
a) visible heavens, sky
1) as abode of the stars
2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
In this context.
Also note up till that point there wasn't a reason to believe Heaven was in the sky. All of the interaction between Man and God was on ground level.
It wasn't till Jesus ascended in a "cloud" that we relocated Heaven as a cloud city.

As to why? In part for the same reason we build sky scrapers, as a monument to our abilities. Also have to remember up till then nothing like this had ever been done, so it would emphasize the greatness of those builders. (They wish to make a great name for themselves.)

God does not speak to non-believers the way he spoke to Satan according to the bible; thus, our conversation never even began.

Actually He does. Non-believers just have not learned to listen.
You believe the difference here is God speaks to Satan but not non believers, when in Fact God gives everyone the same opportunity. In this instance Satan simply listens to God where non-believers ignore what is being said.

Point is, if they ever existed in the middle east, we would be able to track it.

Do you believe that the middle east always primarily desert? What types of animals lived there when it was not all desert?

 

[Ken-1122]

Scripture isnt doesnt seem very concerned with answering that question. It's more concerned with what God is doing about it

So again; if I were all powerful and I were going to fight evil by force, I would use my force against Satan, who is responsible for much of the evil than the humans who are simply influenced by him

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Yah but you're not G-d, and G-d has revealed He's going to do things differently, and in a way that makes us mortals pretty central to the effort.

 

[Ken-1122]

Actually, Actually the NKJV reads as I cut and pasted it. (heavens)

I guess different bibles are slightly different huh?

Actually He does. Non-believers just have not learned to listen.

why must it be so difficult? If you can speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize, why won't God?

You believe the difference here is God speaks to Satan but not non believers, when in Fact God gives everyone the same opportunity. In this instance Satan simply listens to God where non-believers ignore what is being said.

There is a big difference between ignoring and being unable to hear the message. If your God spoke in an audible voice, every atheist on earth would hear him and recognize it; you can't blame that one on us.

Do you believe that the middle east always primarily desert? What types of animals lived there when it was not all desert?

Gee I dunno; probably the type that would leave a trail???

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

why must it be so difficult? If you can speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize, why won't God?

Ken, I don't know if you're not responding to what I've been saying because you accept it, it's too strong to refute, or what; but I encourage you to focus on this point here! It is RICH with both understanding and validity to daily life!! (The answer to the question, that is)

Rather than pretending I have some "full answer" and can convey it to you, I think it better to simply seed your pursuit, and if I can do that much to be content. I encourage you to ponder how amazing and miraculous it is that anyone heard from G-d - ever! And even more amazing, is how different cultures all over the world have anything in common in this respect. Despite the cultural differences, beneath the surface the same Truths keep being expressed ... that says a lot to me!

So this puts us all in a position of having to recognize that G-d is, and we either go it alone or we come to trust what some other people have to say. I have found the bible to be much more reliable than the Church, but if a Church (and more importantly the leadership) will submit themselves to the Bible, then the Church itself can also be a great help in this pursuit.

Blessings to you, Sir ...

 

[ebia]

So again; if I were all powerful and I were going to fight evil by force, I would use my force against Satan, who is responsible for much of the evil than the humans who are simply influenced by him

Ken

That isn't who Satan is in the Old Testament.

 

[SolomonVII]

So who/what is the source of evil?

K

There are two lines of thought here, I think. Many Christian traditions equate the serpent in the garden with the devil, or a fallen evil angel like Satan possessing the body of a snake to deceive Eve. In this way, the source of evil is in both the temptation of the devil, and the succumbing to that temptation by Adam and Eve.
So it is not so much a source of evil, but sources of evil, the one in the devil carrying out evil intent, a spiritual evil, independent of mankind; the other is in the will of Adam and Eve that actively listens to the voice of evil, and actively choose the evil rather than good.

Pre-Christian traditions however consider the snake to be just that—a walking, talking snake, very cunning , but really bare-faced in his deception. Like all animals, the voice of God comes through his desires, and so what an amimal wants, an animal takes. It is in its nature, and God saw that that was good, as it had been stated previously after God created the animals.

For people though, the voice of God does not come to us through our instincts, but as a command to not eat the fruit of the garden. Eve had already heard that voice, either directly or through Adam more likely.so she knew that already. The snake simply pointed out that she probably really wanted that fruit, that is was desirable to her on every level, and she had to agree.
This is not as the evil inclination then, to listen to the voice of our desires over and above God's commands to us, and us alone. God wants us to be aware that we are of a higher spiritual nature than the animals, and that to act on the level of instinct and desire alone would in fact be evil for a creature such as us.
This insight is obviously true, whether or not God commanded Adam and Eve as he did, whether or not snakes could once walk and talk, or even whether or not the snake was somehow possessed of a higher order of evil in the guise of Satan.
For a world in which people went around acting according to their desires would be a world of psychopaths and narcissists, or maybe even more accurately, a world run by two year olds with adult strength and adult intelligence. What works for the animal kingdom would be disastrous for the world of men and women.

The source of evil for mankind then, biblically speaking, is acting according to our desires without consideration of what the voice that seeks order and goodness would be telling us is the better way.

 

[drich0150]

I guess different bibles are slightly different huh?

that's why we go back to the original Greek or Hebrew when there is a question over a word like this one.

why must it be so difficult?

Truthfully it is not. It just requires the smallest effort/faith on your part.

If you can speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize, why won't God?

Did you take out the garbage every time the first time your mother asked? Did she not speak in a way easy for you to understand the first time? or did you not hear or want to hear what she asked of you?

There is a big difference between ignoring and being unable to hear the message.

Indeed.

If your God spoke in an audible voice, every atheist on earth would hear him and recognize it; you can't blame that one on us.

What if He took the time to write everything down? who would be the blame then?

Gee I dunno; probably the type that would leave a trail???

like what?

 

[Ken-1122]

Razontherock
(quote)”You bet. The thought that steel reinforcement might be necessary is pretty naive.”

(reply) actually it’s the other way around. It would be naïve to believe you could build a ship the size of Noah’s ark with today’s technology, completely out of wood without any steel reinforcements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world%27s_largest_wooden_ships
Noah’s Ark is estimated to have been 450 feet long, the worlds largest wooden ships aren’t close to being that big and they had steel reinforcements.

(quote) Ken, I don't know if you're not responding to what I've been saying because you accept it, it's too strong to refute, or what; but I encourage you to focus on this point here! It is RICH with both understanding and validity to daily life!! (The answer to the question, that is)

Actually you’ve answered my question. My original question was “do you believe the stories were true”
And you answered yes. Your reasons may not make sense to me, but they don’t have to; it is obvious you employ faith when it comes to these issues, and I do not; so even though your answers may not make sense to me, you still answered my question; thank you

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

actually it’s the other way around. It would be naïve to believe you could build a ship the size of Noah’s ark with today’s technology, completely out of wood without any steel reinforcements.

First of all, "today's technology" has nothing to do with it. Second of all, you don't know anything about building boats

Far more important than it's construction is it's intended use: the limiting factors of ships you've been reading about have been propulsion method, and speed. (Nowhere did any of the literature mention that, eh?) What propulsion method(s) did the ark employ, and what was it's top speed? IOW, you really haven't thought this through yet.

Oh and, "Actually you’ve answered my question. My original question was “do you believe the stories were true”
And you answered yes."

No, I didn't.

 

[Ken-1122]

Truthfully it is not. It just requires the smallest effort/faith on your part.

Effort I can do, Faith I cannot. Why can't he communicate to me using one or more of my 5 senses?

Did you take out the garbage every time the first time your mother asked? Did she not speak in a way easy for you to understand the first time? or did you not hear or want to hear what she asked of you?

If God communicates to me in a way I can understand and recognize; and I disobey him, that is my fault. If he refuses to communicate to me in a way that I can understand, IMO I can't be blamed.

What if He took the time to write everything down? who would be the blame then?

If he wrote everything down, gave me access to it and I refused to read it, I would be the blame.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Effort I can do, Faith I cannot. Why can't he communicate to me using one or more of my 5 senses?

God is Spirit. The Spiritual aspect of who we are, also has 5 senses. Faith is sight in the Spirit realm.

If God communicates to me in a way I can understand and recognize; and I disobey him, that is my fault.
If he wrote everything down, gave me access to it and I refused to read it, I would be the blame.

You have both the Bible, and it's adherents.

 

[Ken-1122]

First of all, "today's technology" has nothing to do with it. Second of all, you don't know anything about building boats
Far more important than it's construction is it's intended use: the limiting factors of ships you've been reading about have been propulsion method, and speed. (Nowhere did any of the literature mention that, eh?) What propulsion method(s) did the ark employ, and what was it's top speed? IOW, you really haven't thought this through yet.

I'm not an expert on boats but I do know wood is too flexible to build a boat approx half the size of an aircraft carrier and expect it to float, let along carry a heavy load.

Oh and, "Actually you’ve answered my question. My original question was “do you believe the stories were true”
And you answered yes."

No, I didn't.

So you don't believe them to be true?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

God is Spirit. The Spiritual aspect of who we are, also has 5 senses. Faith is sight in the Spirit realm.

Really! So what are the other 4 senses? Faith doesn't work for me, I suspect the others won't either; I need empirical evidence.

You have both the Bible, and it's adherents.

Sorry! That doesn't work for me.


K

 

[razeontherock]

I'm not an expert on boats but I do know wood is too flexible to build a boat approx half the size of an aircraft carrier and expect it to float, let along carry a heavy load.

You don't know any such thing! EX: assume each 450 foot side is one piece of wood. It is indeed flexible. Not likely to find wood that size, but flexible. Why won't it float?

Now being more practical: you're limited in lengths of wood to that which is manageable, and you stiffen it at the joints. This is where 'knowledge of boat building' comes in It's not that hard to do. And Noah had a minimum of 120 years!! (Not to mention Divine instruction)

So you don't believe them to be true?

Too simplistic to answer. The Bible contains Truth. What is that Truth, and more importantly - what is it's point? Plain and simple, that g-d and man are distinct, and are to become One. Stick to this objective, and it starts making sense.

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry! That doesn't work for me.

It's exactly what you asked for.

 

[Ken-1122]

You don't know any such thing! EX: assume each 450 foot side is one piece of wood. It is indeed flexible. Not likely to find wood that size, but flexible. Why won't it float?

Now being more practical: you're limited in lengths of wood to that which is manageable, and you stiffen it at the joints. This is where 'knowledge of boat building' comes in It's not that hard to do. And Noah had a minimum of 120 years!! (Not to mention Divine instruction)

Ya know; if you wanna believe it could float and carry all those animals, that's fine; I ain't gonna try to take that away from you. I'd rather stay on the subject.

Too simplistic to answer. The Bible contains Truth. What is that Truth, and more importantly - what is it's point? Plain and simple, that g-d and man are distinct, and are to become One. Stick to this objective, and it starts making sense.

You've answered a bunch of questions that nobody is asking and neglected to answer the one question I did ask.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

It's exactly what you asked for.

No! I asked why doesn't GOD speak to me in a way that I can understand and recognize. The bible and it's adherents are a bunch of men claiming to speak for God without providing any proof. Big difference!

Ken