Are pro choice Catholics really Catholics

Martinius

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You assume that to be liberal is to oppose the moral teachings of the Church, and that liberals can't be faithful Catholics, and that not being obedient to every moral teaching of the Church is a trait only applicable to "liberals".

I can tell you from my long experience as a Catholic that many Catholics who are NOT liberal are also NOT obedient to all Catholic moral doctrines. From that same experience I can assure you that many liberal Catholics do not oppose The Church's moral teachings. I know many faithful Catholics whom you would likely call liberals, based on your false assumptions. A noted example would be Pope Francis, who is considered quite liberal or worse by many but has not reversed any moral teachings.

I would say, and have said many times on these forums, that to be truly Catholic and a disciple of Jesus is to have traits that are decidedly "liberal" in the view of many.
 
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Theatreguy18

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You assume that to be liberal is to oppose the moral teachings of the Church, and that liberals can't be faithful Catholics, and that not being obedient to every moral teaching of the Church is a trait only applicable to "liberals".

I can tell you from my long experience as a Catholic that many Catholics who are NOT liberal are also NOT obedient to all Catholic moral doctrines. From that same experience I can assure you that many liberal Catholics do not oppose The Church's moral teachings. I know many faithful Catholics whom you would likely call liberals, based on your false assumptions. A noted example would be Pope Francis, who is considered quite liberal or worse by many but has not reversed any moral teachings.

I would say, and have said many times on these forums, that to be truly Catholic and a disciple of Jesus is to have traits that are decidedly "liberal" in the view of many.
I mean liberal as in pro choice and such I actually conside myself liberal in some senses such as Marrage and women's ordination
 
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Martinius

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I mean liberal as in pro choice and such I actually conside myself liberal in some senses such as Marrage and women's ordination
Then you should say that, since liberal has a different meaning and connotations for different people. Your thread title should have read "pro-choice" rather than "liberal." There is a difference, despite what some want to believe.
 
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Martinius

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Now that the question has been re-phrased let me answer this way. We too often assume that to be pro-life means to oppose abortion, stop. But this is only one part of what it really means to be pro-life. As Pope Francis has stated, to be pro-life means to be for life in all its stages and in all circumstances. To oppose abortion while favoring capital punishment is a huge contradiction. To deny the use of contraception and to say that every child conceived be carried full term to birth while ignoring the suffering and deaths of multitudes of infants each year is a huge contradiction. To claim to be pro-life while not recognizing the worthiness of all people is a huge contradiction.

I can confidently say that a large number, perhaps a majority, of "pro-lifers" are not even close to really being pro-life. A consistent life ethic and theology is unfortunately missing in the thinking of many people, and even by the Catholic Church itself. Those who profess a consistent life ethic and ask it of others, such as Pope Francis does, are often attacked for their views, quite often by fellow Catholics. The Church has made great strides in recent decades in preaching a consistent pro-life ethic, but way too many of its members are still thinking with a medieval mind-set.
 
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Martinius

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you can not be ok with the murder of unborn children and be a good Catholic
simple as that
But is that the only stage of life that is important? What about all the other life issues? Is the Pope wrong for emphasizing the full meaning of being pro-life? It is not as simple as you seem to think.
 
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Soma Seer

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But is that the only stage of life that is important? What about all the other life issues? Is the Pope wrong for emphasizing the full meaning of being pro-life? It is not as simple as you seem to think.

Agreed. Someone giving birth isn't where the "pro-life" argument ends. And I get upset whenever someone states that a woman--a soul fully immersed in the world--should give up her life in order to save that of her unborn fetus/baby. (I'm talking about a situation in which a woman knows ahead of time that carrying a fetus to term will put her life at serious risk, or if her body goes into serious distress during the birthing process.)

To my mind, her life also has value--regardless of how "innocent" (or not) someone would judge her to be. And let's say that she has other children who have need of their mother. How would giving up her life for one potential life make things any better for her children who already are in existence?

To my mind, it is not a cut-and-dried subject, by any means.
 
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rturner76

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you can not be ok with the murder of unborn children and be a good Catholic
simple as that

Pro-Choice doesn't mean you are ok with murder. It means not everyone views when a fetus is an independent life yhe same way. I am not pro-abortion for anybody and I don't consider it a viable choice in my decision making. Not everybody is Catholic for one and two, if you make it illegal, women will do it in unsafe ways that can kill them or make them sterile. I'm not pro that happening.
 
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Soma Seer

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Pro-Choice doesn't mean you are ok with murder. It means not everyone views when a fetus is an independent life the same way. I am not pro-abortion for anybody and I don't consider it a viable choice in my decision making. Not everybody is Catholic for one and two, if you make it illegal, women will do it in unsafe ways that can kill them or make them sterile. I'm not pro that happening.

I think that you raise some very valid points. I consider myself "pro-choice," but that doesn't mean I think anyone/everyone should have an abortion if pregnancy/parenthood seem inconvenient.

As for those women who've made the decision to have an abortion--those who've anguished over it and especially those who made it under duress--I don't envy them their experience one bit.
 
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Rhamiel

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if you make it illegal, women will do it in unsafe ways that can kill them or make them sterile. I'm not pro that happening.

sometimes when you try to murder someone, you get hurt in the process

like a guy trying to rob a liquor store might get shot by the owner

you are right, not everyone is Catholic
but you do not have to be Catholic to value human life

some people do not view the fetus as being fully human
the Nazies did not view the Jews as fully human
white slave holders in the south did not view Africans as fully human

this does not make their actions right
we can not just say "agree to disagree" and let human beings be victimized
 
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rturner76

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You can't be pro-choice and a Catholic at the same time. Anybody who knows the Churches teaching on the issue and still supports it are automatically excommunicated.

Can you show me where it says that in some official Catholic doctrine?
 
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rturner76

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sometimes when you try to murder someone, you get hurt in the process

like a guy trying to rob a liquor store might get shot by the owner

you are right, not everyone is Catholic
but you do not have to be Catholic to value human life

some people do not view the fetus as being fully human
the Nazies did not view the Jews as fully human
white slave holders in the south did not view Africans as fully human

this does not make their actions right
we can not just say "agree to disagree" and let human beings be victimized


I do agree that it is a human life and should not be extinguished. Neither should the unwanted babies that are thrown in dumpsters by scared teenagers.
 
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football5680

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Can you show me where it says that in some official Catholic doctrine?
Canon 1398: A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae (Automatic) excommunication.

This applies to the Woman who chose to have an abortion, the doctors and nurses who carried out the procedure, any relatives or friends who encouraged or aided the woman, anybody who publicly promotes abortion, and any politician who votes in favor of abortion.

Holding the view even without publicly advocating it still incurs an automatic excommunication because it is heresy.

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith...."

The Churches stance on abortion is clear and binding on anybody who considers themselves Catholic.

Canon 1364: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”
 
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rturner76

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Canon 1398: A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae (Automatic) excommunication.

This applies to the Woman who chose to have an abortion, the doctors and nurses who carried out the procedure, any relatives or friends who encouraged or aided the woman, anybody who publicly promotes abortion, and any politician who votes in favor of abortion.

Holding the view even without publicly advocating it still incurs an automatic excommunication because it is heresy.

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith...."

The Churches stance on abortion is clear and binding on anybody who considers themselves Catholic.

Canon 1364: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”


Thanks, so would you say that being pro-choice is aiding or advocating abortions? Otherwise if you don't encourage anybody to get one and you re not a politician there would be be other reason you can't agree to let someone make their own choice to kill or not.
 
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Aldebaran

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I think the terminology needs to be looked at. Pro-choice vs. pro-life. We should instead say that we're either for or against abortion, since that's what is being discussed. Otherwise, people will take the pro-life label and apply it to something other than what is being discussed, which is the abortion issue, and then the discussion is side tracked to things like war, self defense, economic issues, etc.
 
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football5680

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Thanks, so would you say that being pro-choice is aiding or advocating abortions? Otherwise if you don't encourage anybody to get one and you re not a politician there would be be other reason you can't agree to let someone make their own choice to kill or not.
If somebody is privately pro-choice then they are not necessarily aiding or advocating abortion but it is a position that a Catholic cannot hold whether it is in public or private. Catholics must oppose abortion and they cannot be indifferent or simply say let them choose what they want to do. Even if nothing changes, we will be innocent of this sin before God and the people who are condemned will have no excuse.
 
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Soma Seer

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Thanks, so would you say that being pro-choice is aiding or advocating abortions? Otherwise if you don't encourage anybody to get one and you re not a politician there would be be other reason you can't agree to let someone make their own choice to kill or not.

Hmmm... That's a very interesting point that you've raised.
 
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