Are non-believers fools?

Gospelutionary

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"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good."
Psalms 14:1

This verse seems very clear to me, and yet I know there are many non-believers who seem to be very intelligent and morally righteous. How can these two conflicting ideas be reconciled?

For me, I think the most revealing part of the verse you quoted is this:

"The fool has said in his heart..."

Because people often profess to believe (or NOT believe in) something, we can tell how much stock they put in their faith profession by what they DO or DON'T do.

"Judge a tree by its fruit" and "faith without works is dead" are two verses that quickly come to mind when I think of the verse in question, and that's why I think that the old adage "actions speak louder than words" easily reconciles this apparent contradiction.

It may help if you refer to the article/thread I just posted entitled "So, Who ARE They Following" to help get a clearer picture of what the difference is between professing to be christian and being a Christian.

This article that my friend wrote is a great way to get people to challenge themselves and their belief in God/Jesus FIRST and before we are quick to point a judgmental finger at so-called non-believers, cause we might just find ourselves in that category on closer inspection!:o
 
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he-man

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I think it must be taken into account that the verse in question is found in the book of psalms. The book of psalms is a collection of songs or poems or praises that people wrote or sang to god, are they not? So they are not the word of god, they are the word of man. because of this I find no reason for anyone, even a christian, to base their opinion about nonbelievers on this verse. It's silly. THe verse is just the opinion of another person and has little to do with god's opinion on the matter, if he exists.
Shame!
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
 
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play_smom

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Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

WHat does that have to do with anything? Besides, that's another psalm, so again, it means nothing in terms of what god really wants, if he exists.
 
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talitha

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There is no reason to set the Psalms apart from the rest of the Bible and say that they are not God's word. God speaks through songs probably more than anything else. Did you know that the last thing God commanded Moses to do before he died was to teach a song to the people?
interesting..
blessings
tal
 
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Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

WHat does that have to do with anything? Besides, that's another psalm, so again, it means nothing in terms of what god really wants, if he exists.

I believe this is a textbook example of "bible bashing" ie To take the bible and bash one over the head with it.

Personally, I believe the bible is intended as a source of inspiration and enlightenment, rather than a +2 mace, but I'm open to disagreement.
 
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play_smom

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There is no reason to set the Psalms apart from the rest of the Bible and say that they are not God's word. God speaks through songs probably more than anything else. Did you know that the last thing God commanded Moses to do before he died was to teach a song to the people?
interesting..
blessings
tal

You're absolutely right, but I'm not separating only the psalms. What I am doing is pointin gout the distinction between the direct word of god and the indirect "inspired" word of man as seen in the bible. The book of psalms happens to be the word of man, there is no avoiding it. If there is no "And then God said..." in front of it, or some such intro, then it can't be viewed as the direct word of god anymore.
 
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You're absolutely right, but I'm not separating only the psalms. What I am doing is pointin gout the distinction between the direct word of god and the indirect "inspired" word of man as seen in the bible. The book of psalms happens to be the word of man, there is no avoiding it. If there is no "And then God said..." in front of it, or some such intro, then it can't be viewed as the direct word of god anymore.

Actually, you're opening the can of worms which doesn't just apply to Psalms, but the whole bible. God didn't literally write any of it. At no time did He sit down, open up his laptop, and punch out a few verses before lunch.

The question is, when scripture is God-inspired, what is the God:Human ratio in the writing? Does the ratio change from book to book? Or, in books like Psalms, with multiple authors, from chapter to chapter?

Interpretation of the bible is a complex, intricate, wonderful process which takes lifetimes, and we need to respect that. Whipping out verses, slapping them on a t-shirt, and then martyring ourselves - or murdering others - over them is just plain wrong.
 
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play_smom

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Actually, you're opening the can of worms which doesn't just apply to Psalms, but the whole bible. God didn't literally write any of it. At no time did He sit down, open up his laptop, and punch out a few verses before lunch.

The question is, when scripture is God-inspired, what is the God:Human ratio in the writing? Does the ratio change from book to book? Or, in books like Psalms, with multiple authors, from chapter to chapter?

Interpretation of the bible is a complex, intricate, wonderful process which takes lifetimes, and we need to respect that. Whipping out verses, slapping them on a t-shirt, and then martyring ourselves - or murdering others - over them is just plain wrong.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about what is true and what is not true. I don't think any of it is true. (Except for the accurate historical references that pop up once in a while) THat's not the point.

WHat I am tryin gto say is that Christians who are trying to live their lives by what God and Jesus said would logically put more stock in the direct words of god than the words of man to god. My solitary point is that the book of psalms is a poor basis for a moral code because it provides the feelings of other people that are being expressed to god and nothing else. It is not about what god said and what god wants, it's just a collection of songs that people sang to god, not unlike modern poems and songs.
 
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talitha

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You have not experience psalmistry. It's amazing. God definitely speaks and sings through people. And if you read the psalms in the Bible, you will see plenty of what God says and plenty of what God wants.

Anyway, with all due respect, you as a nonChristian are not really qualified to say what Christians should base their lives on, nor to say what parts of the Bible might or might not be the Word of God. According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you.
 
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play_smom

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You have not experience psalmistry. It's amazing. God definitely speaks and sings through people. And if you read the psalms in the Bible, you will see plenty of what God says and plenty of what God wants.

Anyway, with all due respect, you as a nonChristian are not really qualified to say what Christians should base their lives on, nor to say what parts of the Bible might or might not be the Word of God. According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you.

1. Thank you for making that assumption of me. In this instance you are correct, I have not experienced it, but the amazing quality of psalmistry is beside the point. I have indeed read many psalms in the bible and I have no reason to believe that the ideas in them are the will of god. True, they could be. "A fool in his heart says there is no god," could be the divine truth of an all-powerful god, but you can't know that. Even the bible doesn't claim that it is. THese words are the words of a mortal man, writing his feelings, inspired or not, that is what they are.

2. You do not know that I am nonChristian (though I am) because the term agnostic can apply to a person of any religion and I know Christians who do not believe in the literal truth of the bible, but thank you for that assumption once again.

3. Could you please point out to me where I ever said what Christians "should" base their lives on? All I said was "CHristians who try to live their lives by what god and jesus said" Never did I say that this is what Christians should base their lives on. Please read carefully. :)

4. I was raised CHristian and have been exposed to multiple denominations of CHristianity in my life. Just because I do not believe in it now, does not make me ignorant of Christian teachings. I experience them on Sundays on a regular basis.
 
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WHat I am tryin gto say is that Christians who are trying to live their lives by what God and Jesus said would logically put more stock in the direct words of god than the words of man to god.

With respect, allow me to disagree. The stock should be dependent on the author, or creator, rather than the speaker. If I performed a puppet show, with my God puppet on one hand, and my human puppet on the other, then whomever spoke would be irrelevant. The degree to which you listened to, or believed, what was spoken should be relative to the authority you place in the performer themself, or the scriptwriter.

My solitary point is that the book of psalms is a poor basis for a moral code because it provides the feelings of other people that are being expressed to god and nothing else. It is not about what god said and what god wants, it's just a collection of songs that people sang to god, not unlike modern poems and songs.

Again, with humility, may I argue your point. The Psalms were worship songs, different in intent and structure, to modern compositions. They were an artistic expression of the Jewish people, based around their understanding of God, His character, their history, and their interpretation of Levitical law.

Leaving aside for a moment whether or not one believes that Levitical law is true or not, Psalms does give quite a good picture into what the law (theory) is like to live under (practice). And although Psalms may be more emotive or artistic than Leviticus, what is expressed is not contradictory to Jewish Old Testament (or Tanakh) belief.
 
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talitha

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1. Since you do not consider Psalms the Word of God, I know that you have not experienced Psalmistry. I made a deduction, not an assumption. And I was right. Where is the offense in that?

2. Again, I was right in my deduction from the things that you say and your faith icon that you are not a Christian. Why does my being right about that bother you?

3. My bad. I typed "should" rather than "would logically". Either way, the wisdom of man apart from God does not begin to stack up to the wisdom of God. Okay, you as a nonChristian are not really qualified to say what Christians would logically base their lives on, nor to say what parts of the Bible might or might not be the Word of God. According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you.

4. I didn't say you were ignorant of Christian teachings. You are probably a pretty smart cookie too, but since you are (by your own admission now) not a Christian, you do not have the mind of Christ, nor the counsel of the Holy Spirit. These are necessary to discern what is the word of God and to know how to live a Christian life.
 
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play_smom

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@Hamish MacWolf

With respect, allow me to disagree. The stock should be dependent on the author, or creator, rather than the speaker. If I performed a puppet show, with my God puppet on one hand, and my human puppet on the other, then whomever spoke would be irrelevant. The degree to which you listened to, or believed, what was spoken should be relative to the authority you place in the performer themself, or the scriptwriter.

That is a fair point and I agree that that should also be a factor. Upon reflection maybe that is an even more important factor, but it does not change the fact that this verse from psalms cannot be assumed to be what god wills. We can't know who wrote the psalms or whether or not they had a correct interpretation of god's will.

To your second point, yes I agree, but because they were the people's interpretations of god's alleged direct words, it can't be assumed the people made correct assumptions.

@talitha

1. Since you do not consider Psalms the Word of God, I know that you have not experienced Psalmistry. I made a deduction, not an assumption. And I was right. Where is the offense in that?

2. Again, I was right in my deduction from the things that you say and your faith icon that you are not a Christian. Why does my being right about that bother you?

1. Assumption is a slippery slope and I do not appreciate people who assume things about myself and my life that they cannot possibly know. I am sure there are people who have experienced psalmistry and yet do not believe that Psalms in the word of god, so your first assumption was nothin gmore than an educated guess. You got lucky mostly because not that many people have experienced psalmistry, so you were bound to be right.

2. The fact that you were right isn't what bothers me. It's the fact that you made the assumption in the first place, quite purposefully. When I post I attempt to not assume things (such as the existance or non-existance of god. I always try to add "if he exists" and "inspired or not" (in reference to the bible) so as not to assume. ANyway, it's not that important, I was just pointing out that you may want to be a bit more careful.

3. My bad. I typed "should" rather than "would logically". Either way, the wisdom of man apart from God does not begin to stack up to the wisdom of God. Okay, you as a nonChristian are not really qualified to say what Christians would logically base their lives on, nor to say what parts of the Bible might or might not be the Word of God. According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you.

As a logical human being I am qualified to make logical judgements based on my perspective. If you disagree with me, argue why what I said was untrue, not why I'm not "qualified" to say it.

"According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you."

WHat does this even mean might I ask?

4. I didn't say you were ignorant of Christian teachings. You are probably a pretty smart cookie too, but since you are (by your own admission now) not a Christian, you do not have the mind of Christ, nor the counsel of the Holy Spirit. These are necessary to discern what is the word of God and to know how to live a Christian life.

But you did tell me that I was not qualified to say what Christians would logically base thier lives on. I'm simply pointing out that I have directly experienced Christian teachings about what Christians are supposed to base their lives on in church and elsewhere.

"[The mind of Christ and the Counsel of the Holy Spirit] are necessare to discern what is the word of God and to know how to live a Chritian life."

Wait so let me get this straight. A person needs to be a Christian and believe in Jesus (so as to have the mind of christ and the counsel of the holy spirit) in order to recognize god's word and learn how to live a christian life (basically to have any reason or means of becoming a christian).

So basically you must already be a Christian in order to have the capacity to understand how and why to become a Christian. Wow, good system.
 
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talitha

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You say educated guess, I say deduction..... okay, leaving that business behind....

talitha: 3. My bad. I typed "should" rather than "would logically". Either way, the wisdom of man apart from God does not begin to stack up to the wisdom of God. Okay, you as a nonChristian are not really qualified to say what Christians would logically base their lives on, nor to say what parts of the Bible might or might not be the Word of God. According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you.
play smom: As a logical human being I am qualified to make logical judgements based on my perspective. If you disagree with me, argue why what I said was untrue, not why I'm not "qualified" to say it.

Answer: I was not arguing anything; I was dismissing the argument altogether, because you are not going to understand.

talitha: "According to the Bible, God's wisdom is foolishness to you."

play smom: WHat does this even mean might I ask?

Answer: Just another way of saying that you aren't going to understand, not under the present conditions anyway. You dismiss as foolish the things of God. That is normal for a nonbeliever.

play smom quotes talitha: "[The mind of Christ and the Counsel of the Holy Spirit] are necessare to discern what is the word of God and to know how to live a Chritian life."

play smom: Wait so let me get this straight. A person needs to be a Christian and believe in Jesus (so as to have the mind of christ and the counsel of the holy spirit) in order to recognize god's word and learn how to live a christian life (basically to have any reason or means of becoming a christian).

So basically you must already be a Christian in order to have the capacity to understand how and why to become a Christian. Wow, good system.

Answer: I did not say you have to be a Christian to become a Christian. You're right about one thing: that would be ludicrous.

Step one: the Father draws you
Step two: you come to Him through Christ
Step three: you receive the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

After going through these steps, then you are qualified to talk about how to live a Christian life (not how to become a Christian, but how to live and grow like one) and about the truth and divine nature of what we call the Word of God.

not a hard-to-understand process. :)
 
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play_smom

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THat is offensive. Claiming that I "won't understand" is a childish way of dealing with a discussion. Saying that I would not understand either means that you don't actually have an argument, you recognize that your argument is illogical or doesn't make sense, or you feel like you are above me and I am not intelligent enough to comprehend your argument.

Either way, it's ridiculous and I would like to hear the argument if you have one. THen we can find out if I understand it or not. At least give me a chance.
 
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Kennesaw42

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John 3:18, 19
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Matt 23:19
Ye fools and blind....

At age 68, a believer for over 50 years, there are a lot of things I still have questions about: about life, things in the bible, theological points, and so on.
But there is one thing I am certain of, and that is that we live in a blighted world, of blind and foolish men and women.

Take the theory of evolution. It has been discredited 10,000 times over, and not just by Christians. It is even more untenable today, with what we now know about microbiological complexity, and the fine-tuning of the physical universe, and the utter mathematical improbability that any life form could have developed by chance (which is to say, by nothing, for chance is nothing), much less the millions of diverse and amazing plant and animal forms that fill the earth. And yet otherwise intelligent human beings say they believe this, that all those amazing philosophers and scientists someone listed above are the product of blind mechanistic forces which spawned life in some murky primordial sludge.

There is only one logical explanation for this madness, and that is the biblical one: we are all born blind, and we remain so until God takes the initiative and opens our eyes, to behold the truth, His truth, and to see just how foolish and sinful we are, and how holy, righteoeus, just, and full of lovingkindness He is.

I don't need to call any man or woman a fool, though. God does that himself, in his word, and He is the Judge of the World, not I. And not just the so-called "God of the Old Testament." Jesus called a spade a spade, and a fool a fool.

Matt 7:26-29
"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

To all I would say: Don't be foolish, but be wise. Outsmart me if you wish, but don't try to outsmart the Lord God who made you. You can attempt the former and not be a fool, perhaps, but not the latter. "There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Why would you choose death? Why not go to Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Oh, I'll tell you why: because of your sins and your pride.
Well, that's what once kept me away from God once too, but I've got some cheerful news for you: God can take care of your sin, and your pride, and your skepticism, and your rebellion, and your reluctance to "have this Man rule over you."

I'll tell you a story about the great Bertrand Russel. Toward the end of his prolific life, he was having lunch one afternoon with a bright young Indian philosophy student. The latter kept trying to engage the great man in philosophical discussion, but wasn't getting much response. Finally Russel said to him: "Young man, how can you be concerned about such things? I have to read a different mystery novel every day just to distract my mind from what the wold is coming to."

Point: In the end, all his philosophy and mathematical knowledge game him no comfort. Was he a genius? Oh yes. Was he a fool? Oh yes, a fool too. "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"
 
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Thanks for the response Kennesaw42, I had no idea that the reason for my disbelief was my sinful, prideful nature! Great anecdote by the way, although I'm not sure what you meant to show with it. Bertrand Russell perceived the universe with much more clarity than most, and the truth wasn't comforting. The more we discover, the less comforting it becomes, in fact. In five billion years the universe will die a heat death, much sooner than that the Andromeda galaxy will collide with ours, probably destroying our solar system in the process. People are born with horrible defects and die of painful debilitating diseases, entire species are wiped out by forces completely beyond their control, and all the while nature observes with complete indifference. In the midst of all this, it's unsurprising that some might cling to the metaphorical child's "blanky" of religion, which is enormously comforting! People are terrified of death, I'm almost hesitant to imagine a world without the cushion of religion, where everybody realises the true import of their inevitable departure from this world. Ultimately I would rather people see the truth than live comfortably.
 
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play_smom

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Take the theory of evolution. It has been discredited 10,000 times over, and not just by Christians. It is even more untenable today, with what we now know about microbiological complexity, and the fine-tuning of the physical universe, and the utter mathematical improbability that any life form could have developed by chance (which is to say, by nothing, for chance is nothing), much less the millions of diverse and amazing plant and animal forms that fill the earth. And yet otherwise intelligent human beings say they believe this, that all those amazing philosophers and scientists someone listed above are the product of blind mechanistic forces which spawned life in some murky primordial sludge.

When and where was evolution discredited? I never heard of it. Besides, it's clearly recogonized that science has not given us all the answers. Even scientists accept that. Science is never finished, and even if we don't know how evolution began, that doesn't discredit the fact that evolution took place. (and is still taking place)

There is only one logical explanation for this madness, and that is the biblical one: we are all born blind, and we remain so until God takes the initiative and opens our eyes, to behold the truth, His truth, and to see just how foolish and sinful we are, and how holy, righteoeus, just, and full of lovingkindness He is.

WHat about every other religion on the planet? What about Buddhism? and Hinduism? and Islam? These are not logical explanations? Why not? Because you said so...? WHat about Wicca and Seikism? Not logical? How about all the ancient religions like Greek and Egyptian? Are those less logical? Are their observations and conclusions of their world any less valid than yours? WHat about Judaism which only takes half (okay a little more than half) of the bible as truth? Are they less logical? Why is their explanation wrong and why is yours right? I know what you're thinking. When will I stop asking question sand actually write a sentence? RIght now. Your religious explanation for the creation of life is no more or less logical than the other religions of the world. Clearly, you believe that it is and I want to know why.
 
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Kennesaw42

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Wow, those are a lot of questions. Take a book to answer, and, unfortunately, I'm under bigtime deadline pressure in my work today.
Just a couple of thoughts will have to suffice for the moment.
After 150 years of Darwinism, it has never been proved that a single plant or animal species evolved a single new function. Mutation as an engine for developing new functions simply does not work.
But there are so many insurmountable problems disproving evolution that one scarcely knows where to start.
Don't see them? Well, that brings us back to that business of blindness.
Other religions? There's a bunch, you're right about that. How do I know Christianity is true? Many reasons. Consider: Against Christianity, thousands and thousands of books have been written, seeking to disprove it. Against other religions, very very few. Why? Because they're not a threat, that's why. And then the insulting "blanky" argument. The God and Christ of the bible are not "blankies" for me, not something I cuddle up with to stop my shivering as I wait with trembling knees for death to claim me, as it claims all of us. No, God is awesome, holy, and just, not some Sugar Daddy in the sky, and I fear death only if I have to stand before Him in judgment unpardoned for all my sins against Him. If you have no such fear, that's grand for you now, but it won't be then.
I don't know what you think your problem is, but mine is how to be right with God, and how to tell others how to be right with God, and the solution has been provided in Jesus Christ. He is as no other. His life and teachings and miracles and sacrificial death and resurrection and subsequent influence in the world through his people (who often fell into error, it is true, just as the ancient Hebrews repeatedly departed from true worship) simply cannot be explained away, in naturalistic terms, as can every other religious founder or guru.
I'm sorry you are so angry, with Christians, the bible, God, Christ, and the world. But I guess I'd be upset too if I thought I was just a machine with an expiration date stumbling through a mindless purposeless world gradually losing its hopeless battle against entropy, among billions of other expiring machines all trying to scratch out a few fleeting pleasures before the batteries run down.
 
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