Are gentiles required to practice circumcision?

Lulav

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I don't really know what "new in time" and "new in quality" mean. Are you saying that one is absolutely new (as in ex nihilo new) and the other is "newish" (as in renewed and made like new)?

Yes, there are two words for "new" in Greek, but there is only ONE word for "new" in Hebrew, and it plays double time. It means both, as I was saying.

What matters is what is in Hebrew, wouldn't you agree? ברית חדשה is ambiguous, and it certainly can mean "renewed covenant."
But not necessarily, agree? Since there were no vowel points this is why I switched to the Septuagint thinking those Jews in 300 something bce would know what it's meaning was, enough to know which word to translate it into Greek.

καινήν is used in the Septuagint in Jeremiah 31 and this is used חֲדָשָׁה in the Hebrew.

From looking up in Hebrew dictionaries, that word with those vowel points means something NEW, novel,

חֲדָשָׁה
means new, unused

חֻדַּשׁ
Means, renewed, recommence

So then why does it look to me that it does mean new as in never been seen before?

חֲדָשָׁה This same word, with the same vowel points is used in the same chapter of Jeremiah, 21

How long wilt thou turn away coyly, O thou backsliding daughter? For the L-RD hath created a new thing in the earth: a woman shall encompass a man.

That is something that had not happened at that time. The word תְּסוֹבֵב used has been translated in many ways probably because it was a 'new' thing.
 
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mercy1061

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Yes those 3 scriptures are about the same re-New-ed Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-12 , Hebrews 10:16-17).

If you paste them side by side you'll see they're almost exactly word for word from start to finish.

I've underlined the words that are different. The differences are interesting. Because Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34, when the words differ, we'd have to give higher credibility to the original vs the quote.

JEREMIAH 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

HEBREWS 8:8-12
8 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

HEBREWS 10:16-17
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”


:wave:

Jer 31:31 A promise of a new covenant is made to the house of Israel AND the house of Judah. Her 31:32 The promised covenant is described, it is NOT like covenant without established LAW the people had when they came out of Egypt. The people that wandered in the wilderness had to be taught how to keep Sabbath and obey his voice. Moses and Aaron had to teach them, Moses and Aaron had to teach their brothers. The law will be placed on their hearts and minds, they shall love Torah. They did not continue in his covenant, because Torah was not established among them when they left Egypt.
Jer 31:33 The promised new covenant is made ONLY to the house of Israel.
 
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yonah_mishael

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But not necessarily, agree? Since there were no vowel points this is why I switched to the Septuagint thinking those Jews in 300 something bce would know what it's meaning was, enough to know which word to translate it into Greek.

καινήν is used in the Septuagint in Jeremiah 31 and this is used חֲדָשָׁה in the Hebrew.

From looking up in Hebrew dictionaries, that word with those vowel points means something NEW, novel,

חֲדָשָׁה
means new, unused

חֻדַּשׁ
Means, renewed, recommence

So then why does it look to me that it does mean new as in never been seen before?

חֲדָשָׁה This same word, with the same vowel points is used in the same chapter of Jeremiah, 21



That is something that had not happened at that time. The word תְּסוֹבֵב used has been translated in many ways probably because it was a 'new' thing.

As I said, the piel and pual forms of this room (as in your חֻדַּשׁ above, which is pual) are NOT biblical Hebrew. They come from the Mishnaic period. We cannot expect a biblical writer to use a word or think in terms that were not existent in his period. This is anachronism.

You cannot use the LXX to act as an indication of proper translation or understanding of Hebrew. That assumes that the translators all worked with the same level of competence (and we have no idea who translated Jeremiah or when). We do not have a Greek "Jewish" translation of the book of Jeremiah. We have a Christian "Septuagint" (better "Old Greek") version that has come down to us. Even the supposedly Jewish translations have been "preserved" by Christians.
 
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Lulav

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The body in the sky is something that has been around before man, man has known that it goes through a cycle from our perspective on earth, approx 29-30 days. It goes from nothing to full back to nothing again and started all over again. This is renewed each month and had become the Hebrew word for moon. It is the same moon, but our view is different, when it is 'new' it is only seen as a shadowy thing. But it is the beginning of its cycle.

It is not brand new, we don't get a brand new body in the sky, we just get a renewed viewing of it.

Then there's the fact that the Greek writers *whom we assume to have been Jews and known the prophecies well enough to understand their meaning, why didn't they use the word renew when speaking of Jer.31:31?

Does not παλινγενεσίᾳ mean renewal? What about ἀνακαινώσει? Why weren't one of these used if it could mean renewed?

kainos is used in Revelation 21 where it talks about a new heaven and new earth because the first heaven and earth had passed away. So this is not a renewal but something fresh and brand new. Paul uses this same word in Corinthians and the writer of Hebrews quoting Jer. 31 uses it as well.
 
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mercy1061

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The body in the sky is something that has been around before man, man has known that it goes through a cycle from our perspective on earth, approx 29-30 days. It goes from nothing to full back to nothing again and started all over again. This is renewed each month and had become the Hebrew word for moon. It is the same moon, but our view is different, when it is 'new' it is only seen as a shadowy thing. But it is the beginning of its cycle.

It is not brand new, we don't get a brand new body in the sky, we just get a renewed viewing of it.

Then there's the fact that the Greek writers *whom we assume to have been Jews and known the prophecies well enough to understand their meaning, why didn't they use the word renew when speaking of Jer.31:31?

Does not παλινγενεσίᾳ mean renewal? What about ἀνακαινώσει? Why weren't one of these used if it could mean renewed?

kainos is used in Revelation 21 where it talks about a new heaven and new earth because the first heaven and earth had passed away. So this is not a renewal but something fresh and brand new. Paul uses this same word in Corinthians and the writer of Hebrews quoting Jer. 31 uses it as well.

There is nothing new under the sun, what is, has already been before. As you already know, the moon is not new but old, as it vanishes away from our eye sight, but then it reappears at a later time. The tangible is old, but what those tangible things represent is new time or new month. What those old tangible things symbolize is new life and time for the observer. After that moon or sun vanish away we know they are reestablished at a later time, the celestial or heavenly bodies know this and teach us Torah daily to those who observe the stars in the sky. The heavens tell us that lights are surrounded by utter darkness.
 
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yonah_mishael

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The body in the sky is something that has been around before man, man has known that it goes through a cycle from our perspective on earth, approx 29-30 days. It goes from nothing to full back to nothing again and started all over again. This is renewed each month and had become the Hebrew word for moon. It is the same moon, but our view is different, when it is 'new' it is only seen as a shadowy thing. But it is the beginning of its cycle.

It is not brand new, we don't get a brand new body in the sky, we just get a renewed viewing of it.

Then there's the fact that the Greek writers *whom we assume to have been Jews and known the prophecies well enough to understand their meaning, why didn't they use the word renew when speaking of Jer.31:31?

Does not παλινγενεσίᾳ mean renewal? What about ἀνακαινώσει? Why weren't one of these used if it could mean renewed?

kainos is used in Revelation 21 where it talks about a new heaven and new earth because the first heaven and earth had passed away. So this is not a renewal but something fresh and brand new. Paul uses this same word in Corinthians and the writer of Hebrews quoting Jer. 31 uses it as well.

παλιγγενεσία means "re-birth," as in πάλιν (again) and γένεσις (birth). That would be a terrible word to use to say that a covenant is re-confirmed.

ἀνακαινόω is of two roots: ἀνά means "again" and καινός means "new." The word means "to make something new again." It is directly related to καινός, as it shares the root. So, the claim that καινός cannot be "renewed" seems kinda absurd based on this, don't you think?
 
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Lulav

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παλιγγενεσία means "re-birth," as in πάλιν (again) and γένεσις (birth). That would be a terrible word to use to say that a covenant is re-confirmed.

ἀνακαινόω is of two roots: ἀνά means "again" and καινός means "new." The word means "to make something new again." It is directly related to καινός, as it shares the root. So, the claim that καινός cannot be "renewed" seems kinda absurd based on this, don't you think?


Ok, I've read this over many times and it still seems to say the same thing.

I agree with the first paragraph, I just wanted to throw that out there.

Now to the second paragraph.

If ἀνακαινόω is ἀνα καινόω and means 'new again' and καινόω means 'new' why in the world would καινόω mean 'renewed' if we have the word ἀνακαινόω? that seems rather absurd to me.
 
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yonah_mishael

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To re-new is to restore to a former or to a good state but that is not what is being described in Jer 31:31, it says it would not be like the one made when we came out of Egypt, but it still involves G-ds Holy Laws.

It says that it will not be like the covenant he made then - in the sense that the people did not uphold the terms of the covenant. However, it is the same covenant. We are to believe that God made a covenant with Abraham, and then he renewed the covenant with Isaac, then he renewed it with Jacob, and so on. Then he renewed the covenant with the entire people at Sinai. Then he renewed it again under David, under Solomon, under Josiah, under Ezra.... etc. The covenant needs to be renewed because (1) the generations that agreed to the covenant before all died and (2) people did not generally stick to the terms of the covenant. What we are told with this specific instance of the covenant's renewal is that its terms (the Torah) will be written on the hearts of the people - and they will NOT break it anymore. In this sense, it is different from the previous version of the covenant.
 
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visionary

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It says that it will not be like the covenant he made then - in the sense that the people did not uphold the terms of the covenant. However, it is the same covenant. We are to believe that God made a covenant with Abraham, and then he renewed the covenant with Isaac, then he renewed it with Jacob, and so on. Then he renewed the covenant with the entire people at Sinai. Then he renewed it again under David, under Solomon, under Josiah, under Ezra.... etc. The covenant needs to be renewed because (1) the generations that agreed to the covenant before all died and (2) people did not generally stick to the terms of the covenant. What we are told with this specific instance of the covenant's renewal is that its terms (the Torah) will be written on the hearts of the people - and they will NOT break it anymore. In this sense, it is different from the previous version of the covenant.
Yep.. this is the upgrade from in stone to in heart.
 
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mercy1061

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It says that it will not be like the covenant he made then - in the sense that the people did not uphold the terms of the covenant. However, it is the same covenant. We are to believe that God made a covenant with Abraham, and then he renewed the covenant with Isaac, then he renewed it with Jacob, and so on. Then he renewed the covenant with the entire people at Sinai. Then he renewed it again under David, under Solomon, under Josiah, under Ezra.... etc. The covenant needs to be renewed because (1) the generations that agreed to the covenant before all died and (2) people did not generally stick to the terms of the covenant. What we are told with this specific instance of the covenant's renewal is that its terms (the Torah) will be written on the hearts of the people - and they will NOT break it anymore. In this sense, it is different from the previous version of the covenant.

Normally a contract needs to be renewed after it expires. Since this covenant is everlasting, no expiration date, it need not be renewed, maybe resetablished or reconfirmed. One party may no longer remember the agreement that was made. If the,law is written on their minds or hearts, it may be easier to remember the terms of the agreement without the need of their brother's reminding them.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Normally a contract needs to be renewed after it expires. Since this covenant is everlasting, no expiration date, it need not be renewed, maybe resetablished or reconfirmed. One party may no longer remember the agreement that was made. If the,law is written on their minds or hearts, it may be easier to remember the terms of the agreement without the need of their brother's reminding them.

Please don't tell me that you've just written something that isn't mystical and spiritualistic - something with which I don't have any problem just agreeing! Oh my goodness!!
 
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It says that it will not be like the covenant he made then - in the sense that the people did not uphold the terms of the covenant. However, it is the same covenant. We are to believe that God made a covenant with Abraham, and then he renewed the covenant with Isaac, then he renewed it with Jacob, and so on. Then he renewed the covenant with the entire people at Sinai. Then he renewed it again under David, under Solomon, under Josiah, under Ezra.... etc. The covenant needs to be renewed because (1) the generations that agreed to the covenant before all died and (2) people did not generally stick to the terms of the covenant. What we are told with this specific instance of the covenant's renewal is that its terms (the Torah) will be written on the hearts of the people - and they will NOT break it anymore. In this sense, it is different from the previous version of the covenant.

Yep.. this is the upgrade from in stone to in heart.

Normally a contract needs to be renewed after it expires. Since this covenant is everlasting, no expiration date, it need not be renewed, maybe resetablished or reconfirmed. One party may no longer remember the agreement that was made. If the,law is written on their minds or hearts, it may be easier to remember the terms of the agreement without the need of their brother's reminding them.
:thumbsup: Great points.
 
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Lulav

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Normally a contract needs to be renewed after it expires. Since this covenant is everlasting, no expiration date, it need not be renewed, maybe resetablished or reconfirmed. One party may no longer remember the agreement that was made. If the,law is written on their minds or hearts, it may be easier to remember the terms of the agreement without the need of their brother's reminding them.
:amen:

We are speaking of the covenant of marriage, right? not the land covenant which involved circumcision and what this thread you started is about. Just so we are on the same page.

Marriage contracts do not renew, but they can be dissolved. A get can be given and it seems that Israel received a get. Now this New Covenant is for Israel and Judah, so since Israel is no longer married to HaShem, a new marriage needs to take place, thus a new covenant, or new ketubah needs to be drawn up. This one is not on stone, or parchment, but internal.
 
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mercy1061

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:amen:

We are speaking of the covenant of marriage, right? not the land covenant which involved circumcision and what this thread you started is about. Just so we are on the same page.

Marriage contracts do not renew, but they can be dissolved. A get can be given and it seems that Israel received a get. Now this New Covenant is for Israel and Judah, so since Israel is no longer married to HaShem, a new marriage needs to take place, thus a new covenant, or new ketubah needs to be drawn up. This one is not on stone, or parchment, but internal.

Contrary to popular oppinion, marriage like the covenant of circumcision is everlasting. If it is everlasting, it can nit be dissolved. This is why it is unlawful to remarry after divorce, divorce only means seperation it does not mean the marriage is dissolved. When an annulment occurs, this means the marriage never occurred. If a lawful divorce occurs, it is reasonable to engage in reconciliation, which Pharisee Saul writes in his letters.
 
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Lulav

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Contrary to popular oppinion, marriage like the covenant of circumcision is everlasting. If it is everlasting, it can nit be dissolved. This is why it is unlawful to remarry after divorce, divorce only means seperation it does not mean the marriage is dissolved. When an annulment occurs, this means the marriage never occurred. If a lawful divorce occurs, it is reasonable to engage in reconciliation, which Pharisee Saul writes in his letters.


As I said in my post above

Marriage contracts do not renew, but they can be dissolved. A get can be given and it seems that Israel received a get. Now this New Covenant is for Israel and Judah, so since Israel is no longer married to HaShem, a new marriage needs to take place, thus a new covenant, or new ketubah needs to be drawn up. This one is not on stone, or parchment, but internal.
This is found in Jeremiah 3, from the same prophet who was given the prophecy of the coming new Covenant.
"I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8"And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.
writ of divorce is a 'get', so apparently G-d can divorce.
 
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BukiRob

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As I said in my post above

This is found in Jeremiah 3, from the same prophet who was given the prophecy of the coming new Covenant.
writ of divorce is a 'get', so apparently G-d can divorce.

He did in fact. He gave Israel a divorce decree. Israel could not be brought back into covenant relationship with Adonai eternally as long as either party was alive. Yeshua's death released G-d and Israel from the inability to be in covenant relationship. A man and a woman even though they are divorced can not remarry. Once one spouse dies, the other is free to marry again...
 
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