Are Gentiles Israelites?

[Amorphous]

I'm wondering if anyone knows how to address these claims. I've seen them made by groups teaching that only Israel can be saved, that gentiles are Israelites, and that Non-Jews cannot be saved. The claim is that it appears like these verses are saying gentiles are Israelites. It appears to start with a prophecy in Deuteronomy.

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will "move them to jealousy" with those which are not a people (loammi); I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV​

As deuteronomy says that Israel would be "made jealous" with those that are "not a people," Hosea shows Israel becoming "not a people".

Then said God, Call his name Lo–ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:9-11 KJV​

Now where I get confused is that it seems that Peter and Paul quote the above verses talking about the Gentiles.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people (loammi) , but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, (lo-ruhamma) but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? he saith also in Osee (Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people (loammi); and her beloved, which was not beloved. Romans 9:24-25

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for "to provoke them to jealousy". Romans 11:11 KJV​

So from the latter three passages it appears that Peter and Paul say that when Israel became divided into two nations, Israel became those who were not a people and had no mercy, and then because of Christ they became a people again to provoke the others to jealousy. I saw this link between verses by some different cults that advocate that only Israel would be saved. But I'm not sure how to address these verses. My other confusion is that the term for gentile ethnos which means nations. Israel was divided into two nations. And the other is that they sat the other greek word, Hellena I think it was, which means "greek" can mean Israelites living as greeks.

Another point was that 1 Peter 1:1 says that it is written to the dispersed Israelites and that John 7:35 says Christ would go to dispersed among the Gentiles to teach the Gentiles

One more point that I've read, is that the word goy that is used to mean gentile is used in Genesis 12. Basically when God told Abe that he'd be a "great nation (goy)," he wasn't saying he'd be "a great non-jew".


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[Job8]

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will "move them to jealousy" with those which are not a people (loammi); I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV

This is a prophecy concerning the spiritual blindness of Israel after they have rejected their Messiah (which they did). Following that God opened the door to the entry of Gentiles into the Kingdom of God (and the Church). Since the privileges and standing of the Church (redeemed Jew and Gentile in one Body) are far greater than those of Israel, the Jews would be moved to jealousy (and thereby repent). Those "which are not a people" and "a foolish nation" pertains to Gentiles, who were outside the privileges of Israel, and foolish in their idolatry. But they were saved by grace.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people (loammi) , but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, (lo-ruhamma) but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV

Israel was called a chosen generation and a royal priesthood originally, but they forfeited that position through their unbelief and rebellion. Therefore this is now applicable to saved Jews and Gentiles.

I'm wondering if anyone knows how to address these claims. I've seen them made by groups teaching that only Israel can be saved, that gentiles are Israelites, and that Non-Jews cannot be saved.

In view of the above, these claims are false. After the Cross, there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile until the Second Coming of Christ. All are guilty and all need to be saved.

 

[Amorphous]

This is a prophecy concerning the spiritual blindness of Israel after they have rejected their Messiah (which they did). Following that God opened the door to the entry of Gentiles into the Kingdom of God (and the Church). Since the privileges and standing of the Church (redeemed Jew and Gentile in one Body) are far greater than those of Israel, the Jews would be moved to jealousy (and thereby repent). Those "which are not a people" and "a foolish nation" pertains to Gentiles, who were outside the privileges of Israel, and foolish in their idolatry. But they were saved by grace.

Israel was called a chosen generation and a royal priesthood originally, but they forfeited that position through their unbelief and rebellion. Therefore this is now applicable to saved Jews and Gentiles.

In view of the above, these claims are false. After the Cross, there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile until the Second Coming of Christ. All are guilty and all need to be saved.

Why are the terms applied to Israel in Hosea used in 1 Peter, and when did they become applied to non Jews?

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[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus is the true Israel, and we (gentiles like myself), united to Him, are as well.

 

[RDKirk]

Why are the terms applied to Israel in Hosea used in 1 Peter, and when did they become applied to non Jews?

They aren't not exactly. Remember Peter is written in Greek, Hosea in Hebrew. The words don't mean the same thing and each case must be considered both in the contexts of their audiences and the context of the Holy Spirit.

In Hosea's case, the scripture is written to give hope to a fallen people--people who at that time are not right with God, who once had a Godly kingdom and are scattered for having lost their nation.

Peter is speaking to people who are presently in right-standing with God and he is explaining to them that even though they are scattered, they in fact are a nation.

Israel moved from being collected to scattered as a matter of faithlessness; Peter is speaking to the Church, which is moving from being scattered (physically) to collected (spiritually). This is a new thing for the Gentile Peter is writing to--they have no history being a faithful people considered a collective nation by God, so Peter must explain the concept in detail and metaphorically.

Remember, though, that as Peter writes, Judea still exists as the site of the physical nation of Israel, so in no way is Peter trying to tell the Gentiles that by faith they become "Judeans." Judea is a place, and that place is not the "nation" Peter is saying that Christians are citizens of. Christians are citizens of Heaven. Heaven is our nation.

 

[Amorphous]

They aren't not exactly. Remember Peter is written in Greek, Hosea in Hebrew. The words don't mean the same thing and each case must be considered both in the contexts of their audiences and the context of the Holy Spirit.

In Hosea's case, the scripture is written to give hope to a fallen people--people who at that time are not right with God, who once had a Godly kingdom and are scattered for having lost their nation.

Peter is speaking to people who are presently in right-standing with God and he is explaining to them that even though they are scattered, they in fact are a nation.

Israel moved from being collected to scattered as a matter of faithlessness; Peter is speaking to the Church, which is moving from being scattered (physically) to collected (spiritually). This is a new thing for the Gentile Peter is writing to--they have no history being a faithful people considered a collective nation by God, so Peter must explain the concept in detail and metaphorically.

Remember, though, that as Peter writes, Judea still exists as the site of the physical nation of Israel, so in no way is Peter trying to tell the Gentiles that by faith they become "Judeans." Judea is a place, and that place is not the "nation" Peter is saying that Christians are citizens of. Christians are citizens of Heaven. Heaven is our nation.

It's written in Greek, but Lo Ammi means no mercy, and Lo Ruhamah means not a people, which are both used in 1 Peter. Furthermore it seems that Peter has written to the scattered Israelites (1:1). An interesting side note to that is that I've noticed that Church (ekklesia) was used in the Greek OT in reference to the Israelite congregations. E.g. "The Church of Israel, Deut. 31:30 lxx".

1 Peter appears to reflect Hosea. Hosea says to Israel (northern tribes) that they are no longer a people, and don't have mercy, but promises "yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea". While Peter says similarly, "you were not a people in the past, but now you are such and such..."

And from my understanding a Jew is a Judahite, a member of the southern tribes, or a person who lives in Judea yet not necessarily an Israelite. So I suppose I should have asked when did lo-ruhamma and lo-ammi become applied to Non-Israelites?

I'm not saying this what I believe. I'm just confused.

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[sdowney717]

There is no longer jew or gentile, if your saved. To God you are a new man. Read Ephesians 2.

Only saved gentiles are of the house of Israel, true sons of Abraham.
Only saved jews are of the house of Israel, true sons of Abraham.
See not all Israel is Israel.
Israel was born as a promise of God, that Abraham would have a son.
God's promise and God's calling of His elect then is God's promise that Abraham would be the father of a great nation of believers in God and Christ, according to the Spirit this would be accomplished, and not according to the will of man.

You need to get your head around being chosen by Christ according to God's foreknowing His people to understand these things, because otherwise nothing to you will make any sense. So here are some scriptures pointing this out for you.

Galatians 3
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”


IF your God's child, and not all are, then your a child of God's promise to Abraham, so then your born according to the Spirit of God, elect and saved destined to belong to Christ and sprinkled with His blood.

1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade.

The reason your saved and someone else is not saved, is entirely up to God's mercy for you, God's personal decision to reveal HIS SON in you.

 

[Job8]

Jesus is the true Israel, and we (gentiles like myself), united to Him, are as well.

One could say that (1) Jesus is THE ROOT of the true Israel, (2) saved Jews are THE GOOD OLIVE TREE rooted in Christ, and (3) Gentiles are the branches from THE WILD OLIVE TREE grafted into true Israel. For details see Romans 11.

 

[Job8]

Why are the terms applied to Israel in Hosea used in 1 Peter, and when did they become applied to non Jews?

The prophecy of Hosea has two parts to it: (1) the rejection of idolatrous Israel as the people of God and (2) the ultimate restoration and redemption of a believing remnant at the Second Coming of Christ: and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

This is yet future, and will be fulfilled only at the Second Coming of Christ. In the interim (the Church Age) the Church is the Royal Priesthood of all believers, and both Jews and Gentiles are included.

 

[Amorphous]

The prophecy of Hosea has two parts to it: (1) the rejection of idolatrous Israel as the people of God and (2) the ultimate restoration and redemption of a believing remnant at the Second Coming of Christ: and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

This is yet future, and will be fulfilled only at the Second Coming of Christ. In the interim (the Church Age) the Church is the Royal Priesthood of all believers, and both Jews and Gentiles are included.

Who are the Gentiles in Hosea?

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[sdowney717]

Another point was that 1 Peter 1:1 says that it is written to the dispersed Israelites and that John 7:35 says Christ would go to dispersed among the Gentiles to teach the Gentiles

One more point that I've read, is that the word goy that is used to mean gentile is used in Genesis 12. Basically when God told Abe that he'd be a "great nation (goy)," he wasn't saying he'd be "a great non-jew".


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John 7:35, does NOT say Christ would do that.

35 The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 36 What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?”

This was what some Jews said, they were wondering what Jesus meant.

Jesus told them He was going where they could not go. That is back to Heaven to be with the Father.
Jesus is taking to unbelieving jews, so yeah, then, 'where I am, you cannot come' , would be the truth.

 

[Job8]

Who are the Gentiles in Hosea?

No Gentiles in Hosea. This is all about Israel. Please note:

LOAMMI REPRESENTS REJECTED ISRAEL AT THAT TIME
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. 9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

GOD SEES REDEEMED JEWS IN THE FUTURE AS INNUMERABLE
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered;

ISRAEL REJECTED THEN, BUT REDEEMED AND RESTORED IN FUTURE
and it shall come to pass,that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

ALL OF JACOB (TWELVE TRIBES) WILL BE ONE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

 

[sdowney717]

Who are the Gentiles in Hosea?

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8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’

You did not understand my earlier post it seems?
About God's promise that Abraham would be the father of a great nation of believers including those that it was said of them, they are not God's people.
These jews who are not God's people, will become God's people, according to God foreknowing them in Christ.
All God's people whom He foreknew, He has not rejected. But it was not yet the time for the gospel of Christ to go out to the nations when Hosea was written, This is a future prophecy of the calling God will have in the life of gentiles in other nations who were at one time separated from the promise of God.

v10, talks of true Israel, which if your a saved person in Christ, you are now of Abraham's seed and heirs according to God's promise which He made so very long ago to Abraham, before Hosea was born. AND these people are both of the jews and of the gentiles, but only according to God's individual calling of them out from the nations to be His own special people and a holy nation to God.

 

[sdowney717]

Hosea 1
4 Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.”

Ok, God says He is ending the kingdom of Israel. They went into captivity, and never returned, but Judah did return from babylon, the people of the kingdom of Israel were dispersed into all the peoples of the gentiles and were no more jews.

then we read of the birth of this child, signifying as a sign by the name God gives the child His judgement on the kingdom of Israel, yet Judah God says He will still love them.

6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7 Yet I will show love to Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but I, the Lord their God, will save them.”

And the sign of the name given to this other child also demonstrates His judgement to the kingdom of Israel

8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

BUT!, God had already pronounced beforehand to Abraham His promise, and were see that in v10. God will not break His word.
v10 finds it's fulfillment in Christ, the gospel gone out to all the nations, and they become true Israel, made up from both jew and gentile believers.

10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’

 

[Hank77]

One more point that I've read, is that the word goy that is used to mean gentile is used in Genesis 12. Basically when God told Abe that he'd be a "great nation (goy)," he wasn't saying he'd be "a great non-jew".

'Goy' is just Hebrew for 'nation'. 'Goyim' the people of a nation. Here it is used when speaking about Israel.
Jos 3:17 and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah stand on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan--established, and all Israel are passing over on dry ground till that all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan.
nation=goy

Some 'Yiddish' speaking Jews, in modern times, started using this word, as slang, when they were/are speaking about Gentiles.

 

[Amorphous]

'Goy' is just Hebrew for 'nation'. 'Goyim' the people of a nation. Here it is used when speaking about Israel.
Jos 3:17 and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah stand on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan--established, and all Israel are passing over on dry ground till that all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan.
nation=goy

Some 'Yiddish' speaking Jews, in modern times, started using this word, as slang, when they were/are speaking about Gentiles.

What about "light of the Gentiles" (Leor goyim) Isaiah 49:6?

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[Winken]

I'm wondering if anyone knows how to address these claims. I've seen them made by groups teaching that only Israel can be saved, that gentiles are Israelites, and that Non-Jews cannot be saved. The claim is that it appears like these verses are saying gentiles are Israelites. It appears to start with a prophecy in Deuteronomy.

Romans 11:19-22

"Grafted in" pertained to Gentiles who were made eligible for the Gift of salvation by Grace through Faith through the Covenant with Abraham, resulting in the Cross. Each Gentile who does not respond to the offer of the Gift of salvation will be "broken off," just as those Jews who were chosen, who were granted redemption in advance, but failed to remain true to the Covenant, then ultimately rejected their personal invitation to enter in through the Grace of their Messiah, Jesus. Note the difference: The Jews were chosen and granted redemption at birth; Gentiles were to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, following through with the confession in Romans 10:8-13. Jews were instructed to follow rites, rituals, washings, sacrifices, temple worship, 613 commandments (including the Ten) in order to maintain their chosen status, then to enter into their earthly Kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew, identical to Kingdom of God in Mark and Luke). Christians do "none of the above" before or after receiving Jesus as Savior. They receive Jesus by Grace through Faith, just as it was offered 2,000 years ago to the Jews, the Apostle Paul revealing the "mystery" to everyone on earth.

Who got / gets broken off? Who was / will be grafted in?

Gentile Believers are those who accept the Gift (Romans 10:8-13). They are fellow citizens with the saints (Ephesians 2:19), but they were not merged into Judaism. Jews were not merged into Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Ephesians 2:15
Galatians 3:22-29

Be blessed & gnite!

 

[Hank77]

What about "light of the Gentiles" (Leor goyim) Isaiah 49:6?

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That is not a literal translation, and is not the translation in Young's Literal Translation which says,
'light of the nations'.
I have to assume that the translators that used 'Gentiles' did so in order to make it clear as to whom the scripture was referring to.
Even in the NT, the word translated as 'Gentile', is actually the word 'Greek'. One will not find the word 'Gentile' in Young's Literal Translation, it always uses 'Greek'.

EDIT - I should note that in the NT the word translated as 'gentile' or even 'Greek' actually means 'nation' referring to a group or groups that have things in common. In this case their commonality would be, among other things, not having the background of the OT scriptures and a relationship with God.
Paul says in Christ there is no Jew or Greek, both are one in Christ. Being equally privileged to all the blessings, redemption, resurrection, eternal life with God, etc.

 

[Hank77]

Who are the Gentiles in Hosea?

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I refer to the parable in Luke 14 and Matthew 22 as to who and why individual people of all nations are a part of this group of God's chosen people spoken of in Hosea.
When God calls, some respond to the call and others reject the call. They give excuses as to why they cannot attend the wedding feast, but the truth is they just will not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah.
The call went to the Jews first, even Paul preached to the Jews first. Many Jews did believe, but the Jewish leaders rejected the truth causing many others to reject it also, and by their rejection the other nations/peoples were then called, just as Abraham was called, before the physical nation of Israel existed, by the grace and mercy of God. He believed through faith, he trusted God and obeyed Him.
God's chosen people are those of both Hebrew descent and others, what they have in common is that their hearts have been circumcised by God, His laws are written on their hearts.

 

[ewq1938]

The claim is that it appears like these verses are saying gentiles are Israelites.

Yes that is true. To be Israel now is based solely upon faith in Christ. Unbelievers in Christ are removed from Israel and believers are added. Paul taught this here:


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.