Are Catholics permitted to join a Communist political party?

[Rhamiel]

How did the ridiculous, and false, idea that Nazis were atheist become so widespread?

because many of them were atheists
many of them were occultists and pagans
many of them of them had the idea of "the Aryan Christ" where it was a weird mix of Christianity and Nazism
many of them were mainstream Christians, both Catholic and Protestant (but this would be more among the lower levels of the Regime)

 

[MikeK]

....and many were Catholics or Lutherans.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

I know it's a cliche at this point to trot this one out (just as it's a cliche to say "Nazis were atheists"), but the did have Gott Mitt Uns on their uniform belt buckles. And the German population was overwhelmingly Christian. A few officers here and there who were pagan or atheist doesn't change the reality that most involved in those crimes were Christians.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I know it's a cliche at this point to trot this one out (just as it's a cliche to say "Nazis were atheists"), but the did have Gott Mitt Uns on their uniform belt buckles. And the German population was overwhelmingly Christian. A few officers here and there who were pagan or atheist doesn't change the reality that most involved in those crimes were Christians.

They had a Hindu symbol on the Nazi flag. Nazism was a neo-pagan religion that took a little bit from various religions.

 

[MikeK]

Underlining lies doesn't make them true, unfortunately. Nazism was a political movement, not a religion. The vast majority of Nazis were Christians. I know there is a desire to make things simple and paint all history as heroes and villains, Christians and devil-worshippers, but the world just isn't that simple.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Underlining lies doesn't make them true, unfortunately. Nazism was a political movement, not a religion. The vast majority of Nazis were Christians. I know there is a desire to make things simple and paint all history as heroes and villains, Christians and devil-worshippers, but the world just isn't that simple.

In November 1918, Germany had a communist revolution, of which, Hitler was an active participant. This is why it's safe to say that Germany had a socialist majority at the time they voted Hitler into power. The Nazis called themselves socialists, hated capitalism and established a welfare state, things which are hallmarks of the left. Nazism was also a utopian ideology, another hallmark of the left. The Nazi regime was very hostile toward the Catholic Church. That's why the Church has a couple of martyrs as a direct result of Nazism. And the Pope and bishops condemned Nazism. The Nazi flag has a Hindu symbol on it, and the Nazis worshipped Hitler as if he were a god which means that Nazism itself wasn't Christian even if there were some in the party who were Christians. The Hitler worship is what made Nazism a religion.

 

[MikeK]

When a person decides what they wish to believe before you study, you confirm your biases. This tendency is quite common among historic loons who predicted the end times. It is also likely to present difficulty in university and is often an impediment to gainful employment. People with healthy levels of emotional intelligence will strive to overcome their tendencies in this area while others will succumb to a lifetime spent in failure after failure, never really understanding why they can't make it work.

To say that the Nazis hated capitalism is a demonstrable lie, as they directly promoted capitalism. Compare the capitalism that the Nazis allowed for Krupp with what the USA allows for General Dynamics and Raytheon - those are critical defense companies that are privately owned and managed, that profits greatly off their host countries. Contrast with modern day Russia who are swiftly nationalizing what little independent defense industry remains.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'll put it more simply.

Hitler worship was central to Nazism, therefore Nazism was a religion.

 

[MikeK]

Hitter worship was not central to Nazism, at least not to the extent that His peers Stalin or Musolini were worshipped by the Communist Soviets or the Fascist Italians. If Nazism is a religion, than so is Christian Fascism and Communism, and all of these groups would qualify for tax-exempt status under American law....but they don't, because they aren't religions and no serious person thinks that they are. Cults of personality and religion are not synonyms. There are places where there has been significant overlay, like Imperial Japan, but the cases in question are quite clearly not religions. Note that interestingly, when it suited them, Muslolini, Stalin and Hitler all allowed and even encouraged Christian worship and belief. I'm reminded of Mr Putin's popularity numbers and his willingness to use Chistianity to gain support, even as he takes part in overtly anti-Christian behavior.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Hitler demanded worship. Therefore it was central to Nazism. Nazism was a religion. Hitler was an enemy of the Catholic Church, and Nazism was condemned by the Pope.

 

[MikeK]

Repeating yourself is about as effective an argument as underlining your statement is. That a political movement is at odds with Catholocism is not evidence of something being a religion. Hitler demanded loyalty and to an extent, respect. He was a cult of personality but did not refer to himself as divine nor did he encourage his followers to believe that he was somehow not human. Repeating falsehoods will not make them true. I am trying to help you - I understand the issues you've had with education and employment, and if you want to remedy those issues you have to start embracing reason over hunch.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"With the death of President Hindenburg on August 2, 1934, Hitler united the chancellorship and presidency under the new title of Fuhrer. As the economy improved, popular support for Hitler’s regime became strong, and a cult of Fuhrer worship was propagated by Hitler’s capable propagandists." (Source)

"And he [Hitler] also practiced psychological manipulations of the collective consciousness, which was plagued by an ideology that had started to exert itself in the time of Nietzsche and Wagner 50 years earlier. According to some scholars (for example, Columbia University historian Fritz Stern) the ideology already included a hope for apolitical redemption which sowed the seeds for the later Fuhrer worship. People were tired of politics and they were turning away from it and into spiritual, mystical ideas. The turning away from political compromise and towards mystical redemption was evident in Wagner’s immensely popular operas. Germans wanted a leader who would not use politics, which is always negotiation, but who would offer a cleansing and a starting over -- one revolutionary sweep rather than slow reforms." (Source)

 

[MikeK]

Fantastic work Googling and linking, but give critical thought a try. Do you understand the difference between the personality cults surrounding Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Musolini et al and an actual religion where people believe they are worshiping a non-mortal being?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Fantastic work Googling and linking, but give critical thought a try. Do you understand the difference between the personality cults surrounding Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Musolini et al and an actual religion where people believe they are worshiping a non-mortal being?

Sophism does not equal critical thought. I understand that Hitler was worshiped and that therefore Nazism was a religion and doesn't qualify as being Christian. First you tell me that I'm wrong and repeating myself, and then when I show you that the historians have also said that Hitler was worshipped you ignore them, too. Why do you choose to ignore what the historians say about it? Do you believe that they haven't thought about it critically? You also ignore the fact that the Pope during the time strongly condemned Nazism (here). Pope Pius XI even wrote the encyclical in German so that it was addressed to the German people directly in their own language. And it remains the only papal encyclical that was issued in German.

In his encyclical on Nazism in 1937, the Pope said:

"None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are 'as a drop of a bucket' (Isaiah xI, 15)." - Pope Pius XI​

 

[pdudgeon]

Apart from the fact that every Western government pays lip service to small business while acting in the interests of big business that doesn't seem likely to happen.

But it's also hard to see how it maps onto our contempory economy at all.
A lot of what people spend their money can only be provided by big organisations, by globalised production and distribution, ... Most of our cities where most western populations live are not organised for it, ...

Maybe it would be good. But getting from here to there is so implausible that it looks like a pipe dream distraction from possible changes for the better.

it's really not impossible at all. In fact the middle ages did quite well on it. There was importing and exporting, local trading, and local farmers, merchants, etc.
and yes, big cities did survive. All the major ones are still with us today.

 

[ebia]

it's really not impossible at all. In fact the middle ages did quite well on it. There was importing and exporting, local trading, and local farmers, merchants, etc.
and yes, big cities did survive. All the major ones are still with us today.

I didn't say an economy could work like that. I said you can't get from where we are now to there.

 

[MikeK]

I understand that Hitler was worshiped and that therefore Nazism was a religion and doesn't qualify as being Christian. First you tell me that I'm wrong and repeating myself, and then when I show you that the historians have also said that Hitler was worshipped you ignore them, too. Why do you choose to ignore what the historians say about it? Do you believe that they haven't thought about it critically? You also ignore the fact that Hitler was an enemy to the Church, and you ignore what the Popes have said about it.

What you did was you googled until you found someone who would agree with you and then you passed it off as fact. Our Popes have not recognized Nazisim as a religion to my knowledge and your copy and pasted out-of-context quote does nothing to help your cause.

If Nazism is a religion than every personality cult is a religion, including Mr Putin's. That Putin allows some worship of other Gods and even professes faith in them is inconsequential, as Hitler did too. Putin single-handedly wields power, resorts to evil methods, and imprisons or executes his political foes while fostering nationalist sentiments among his presents by citing largely imaginary external and internal threats to their way of life.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What you did was you googled until you found someone who would agree with you and then you passed it off as fact. Our Popes have not recognized Nazisim as a religion to my knowledge and your copy and pasted out-of-context quote does nothing to help your cause.

You can say that all you want, but I am the one who backed up what I said. And I did it with legitimate sources.

 

[Rhamiel]

the Nazi movement promoted the worship of the pagan gods of Germany, a lot of Nazism grew out of the new age group occultist called the Thule Society
the Nordic gods like Woden and Thor
the SS had Runes for their symbol

I would not call Nazism pagan, rather it had some serious pagan elements
but it was not Christian either, though the vast majority of Germany was Christian

I do not know the numbers of how many in the actual Nazi party were Christian
not everyone in Germany was a member of the Party

so yeah, there were atheists, pagans, and Christians all working together in the Nazi party
personal creed was secondary
worship of the State, the creed of Blood and Soil, was paramount

 

[ebia]

You can say that all you want, but I am the one who backed up what I said. And I did it with legitimate sources.

Legitimate source? ':-