LDS Are American Indians of Hebrew descent?

[ToBeLoved]

I believe that the BOM or other Mormon documents say that the American Indians are of the 12 Tribes of Israel back from the time of Noah.

DNA tests have been done of American Indians and there is no Hebrew blood in their DNA.

How can this be true then?

 

[Jane_Doe]

(Re-posting this here at TBL's request)

I am a professional scientist and do work in genetics, I'll give you a couple of background facts about genetics:

--These studies are done on mitochondria DNA, which is passed via the female lines.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were precisely 2 Hebrew matriarchs which came over 600 BC
--It’s estimated that there were as many as 112 million Native Americans in 1492, plus all the ones which lived before that time.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were many people living here before the 2 matriarchs came over (they were a tiny drop in the ocean).
-- For these genetics studies, scientists typically take DNA from <100 people, living in the 2010’s AD.

The probability of randomly detecting DNA from 2 individuals whom lived >2500 years ago is absolutely dismal, just based on sheer odds. The odds only further decrease when you add all the mass deaths of entire native populations due to small pox, European killings, slavery, random genetic drift, etc.

All in all, I am totally unsurprised that DNA studies did not “prove” the Book of Mormon (aka find the single metaphorical needle in a million haystacks).

Also there’s also a really good official essay by the Church about this (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng)

 

[Jane_Doe]

I believe that the BOM or other Mormon documents say that the American Indians are of the 12 Tribes of Israel back from the time of Noah.

Helping you with your facts here: it says a total of 2 Hebrew families from 1 tribe came over to the Americas. There were many other people living here.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I will check out the link you provided in post #2 tonight after work and can then respond.

If you have any LDS BOM information to share in the meantime that supports this position, please share.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Okay I'll re-post this here

From a Nov 2013 article in the National Geographic

"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.
Based on the arm bone of a 24,000-year-old Siberian youth, the research could uncover new origins for America's indigenous peoples, as well as stir up fresh debate on Native American identities, experts say.
The study authors believe the new study could also help resolve some long-standing puzzles on the peopling of the New World, which include genetic oddities and archaeological inconsistencies. (Explore an atlas of the human journey.)
"These results were a great surprise to us," said study co-author and ancient-DNA specialist Eske Willerslev, of the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
"I hadn't expected anything like this. A genome related to present-day western Eurasian populations and modern Native Americans as well was really puzzling in the beginning. How could this happen?"......This study changes this idea because it shows that a significant minority of Native American ancestry actually derives not from East Asia but from a people related to present-day western Eurasians," Willerslev said.

"It's approximately one-third of the genome, and that is a lot," he added. "So in that regard I think it's changing quite a bit of the history."

While the land bridge still formed the gateway to America, the study now portrays Native Americans as a group derived from the meeting of two different populations, one ancestral to East Asians and the other related to western Eurasians, explained Willerslev, whose research was published in the November 20 edition of the journal Nature.


"The meeting of those two groups is what formed Native Americans as we know them." (Learn more about National Geographic's Genographic Project.)"

Now how does this apply to The Book of Mormon? The first group left sometime after the Tower so they were not Hebrew as in descendants of Abraham, we don't know which son of Noah's they came from. If the Bible is right (although the timeline isn't) Noah landed in Western Eurasian. So with Jared in the Book of Mormon we have some western Eurasians coming to the Americas, Lehi's little group would have just been adding back in more Western Eurasian genes into the mix that was already there.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...e-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

 

[Ironhold]

And let's not forget that bugaboo which is Haplogroup X - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA) .

This has been found in Native American groups living in the Northern United States and the southern part of Canada, but the origin for Haplogroup X appears to be the Middle East.

 

[ToBeLoved]

dup

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm pretty sure they think Noah landed in Turkey on Mt Ararat very very close to Israel.

I don't even know who WestEuroasians are?

And isn't Siberia in Russia?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

We are all descendants of Adam and Eve so technically we are all family.

 

[withwonderingawe]

We've got two threads talking about this;

The article says; DNA from the remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East and Europe, as well as other aspects unique to Native Americans, but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians.


The Jaradites in the Book of Mormon were just one group of many Western Eurasia/Middle East groups who came here, they arrived a little later than most at 6000 years ago. (I think perhaps longer ago than that because I think the flood and tower happened much longer ago than what the Bible says. I think it was a story which was passed down for many generations which got interwoven into the Bible.) People did get here by boat!

The Middle East would include the Semitic peoples who lived there. We do not know who Sarah's mother was or where she came from, her dna would be important to the mix. Lot's children, Abraham's third wife Keturah and Esau families dna would also add to the mix of Middle Eastern dna.

The tribes of Israel were a mixed group because the 12 sons married different women from other Middle Eastern groups, Joseph, who our second group descends from, married an Egyption. We don't know who else these people enter married with while in Egypt, they had no laws for bidding them at the time. Moses married an Ethiopian.

The Bible says the missing Ten Tribes fled northward which would be into Europe and Russia taking their dna with them and enter marrying with the peoples there, genetic researchers don't take that into account at all. These people lost their Israelite identity so we don't know who they were.

No one knows what Jewish/Levite dna looked like in 600 bc, when Lehi and family left Jerusalem. They have found that according to the mtdna in 70 bc when the Jews fled from the Romans they seemed to have left their women behind.

Jesus warned;
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Luke 28

When these cowardly men got into Europe they intermarried with the indigenous women who live there because they can show Jewish mtdna closely matches them. So there really is no pure Israelite dna to look at. It really would have been a mix of Middle Eastern dna, the same as found in the Indian population here in the Americas.

All we are saying is that Lehi's dna got mixed into what was already here.

There is another point, in the Book of Mormon the white race those most Hebrew were hunted down and killed, their women and children were sacrificed, their mtdna disappeared. So no your not going to find any of it!

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Just realized this thread is for LDS only right? My bad!

 

[Ironhold]

Just realized this thread is for LDS only right? My bad!

You can post here; the tag up top is simply saying which religion the discussion is about.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Just realized this thread is for LDS only right? My bad!

yes it does get confusing, Mormons can't start a thread nor post on a thread about JW but "Christians" can post on any thread they want.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Just realized this thread is for LDS only right? My bad!

You can also post here too. The designated topic is simply LDS beliefs.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

When these cowardly men got into Europe they intermarried with the indigenous women who live there because they can show Jewish mtdna closely matches them.

Well, you see, those cowardly Jews are forbidden from having dirty stinking pig farming barbarians as wives.

Deut 7:3

You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son.


Those cowardly Jews fled to Persia, Babylon and Alexandra, the only ones that went to Rome went as slaves. Oh, and some hoped on El Al and flew to Brooklyn.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Well, you see, those cowardly Jews are forbidden from having dirty stinking pig farming barbarians as wives.

Deut 7:3

You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son.


Those cowardly Jews fled to Persia, Babylon and Alexandra, the only ones that went to Rome went as slaves. Oh, and some hoped on El Al and flew to Brooklyn.

No, but I'll be more specific a small portion of them fled, some of them ended up in Europe and Russia and it was cowardly to leave their wives to be sex slaves to the Romans. The Roman Empire controlled Alexandra no safety there , they had to go all the way up into Germania to get away from them.

Here's the studies from Wik
"The maternal lineages of Jewish populations, studied by looking at mitochondrial DNA, are generally more heterogeneous. Scholars such as Harry Ostrer and Raphael Falk believe this indicates that many Jewish males found new mates from European and other communities in the places where they migrated in the diaspora after fleeing ancient Israel. Behar et al. in 2008 published evidence suggesting that about 40% of Ashkenazi Jews originate maternally from just four female founders, who were of Middle Eastern origin, while the populations of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jewish communities "showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect". Evidence for female founders has been observed in other Jewish populations. With the exception of Ethiopian and Indian Jews, it has been argued that all of the Jewish populations have mitochondrial genomes that were of Middle Eastern origin. In 2013, Richards et al. to the contrary published work suggesting that an estimated "80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe, and 8 percent from the Near East, with the rest uncertain", suggesting that Jewish males migrated to Europe and took new wives from the local population, and converted them to Judaism. However, another study by Eva Fernandez et al. published in 2014 which studied the DNA of the Neolithic period and its modern descendants suggested that Ashkenazi Jews maternally originated in the Ancient Near East, contrary to the suggestion of Richards at al (2013)"

Now there is a disagreement and problems with the different studies. I personal think it's because there were many different waves of Jewish migration which mixed the Mtdna up, the first wave were those that fled Jerusalem when Rome destroyed the temple, a second wave as Jewish slaves were brought up from Rome into Europe, another as Rome fell and then again as the Christians took over and began persecuting the Jews. The Ashkenazi Jews seem to be a separate group of Jews who existed within the Roman Empire untouched by slavery. They were granted Roman citizenship in 212 ad. and there were even Jewish troops in Romes army. They are the ones who kept their Jewish Mtdna and ended up in Germany during the middle ages.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Here's the studies from Wik
"The maternal lineages of Jewish populations, studied by looking at mitochondrial DNA, are generally more heterogeneous. Scholars such as Harry Ostrer and Raphael Falk believe this indicates that many Jewish males found new mates from European and other communities in the places where they migrated in the diaspora after fleeing ancient Israel.

Wikipedia, I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harry Ostrer whose work has been criticized by other geneticists and has refused to release his research on the Juden to other peers and …

Raphael Falk, a Russian chess master that died in 1913!! DNA expert!!!

Clearly these are the best DNA researchers out there!!


It doesn’t take magical see’er stones to see this is just RUBBISH!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Wikipedia, I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harry Ostrer whose work has been criticized by other geneticists and has refused to release his research on the Juden to other peers and …

Raphael Falk, a Russian chess master that died in 1913!! DNA expert!!!

Clearly these are the best DNA researchers out there!!


It doesn’t take magical see’er stones to see this is just RUBBISH!

well now you're attacking the messenger, I believe they met this Raphael Falk

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2014.00462/abstract

http://www.huji.ac.il/dataj/controller/ihoker/MOP-STAFF_LINK?sno=815746&Save_t=

 

[Aryeh Jay]

well now you're attacking the messenger, I believe they met this Raphael Falk

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2014.00462/abstract

http://www.huji.ac.il/dataj/controller/ihoker/MOP-STAFF_LINK?sno=815746&Save_t=

No, I am attacking the use of Wikipedia as an authority.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

They have found that according to the mtdna in 70 bc when the Jews fled from the Romans they seemed to have left their women behind.

When these cowardly men got into Europe they intermarried with the indigenous women who live there because they can show Jewish mtdna closely matches them. So there really is no pure Israelite dna to look at. It really would have been a mix of Middle Eastern dna, the same as found in the Indian population here in the Americas.

It is a good thing us cowardly Jews do not have to depend on Mormons for our history. BTW, I am curious about the source of the cowardly Jew men abandoning their wives and children as they moved off to rape and subdue Europe. Do you happen to have eine source für diese?