Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

[pat34lee]

Instead of just calling it "heresy", why don't you just explain the proper interpretation of the verses I gave in post #104?

The son became flesh as the universe came to be, in order
to interact with it. The father, who exists outside space and
time, has no form we can relate to.

Yeshua, being the son and the father, has all the power of
the father, including that power to save, forgive sins, and
also to destroy. Matthew 10:28
God gives these powers to nobody, because they are his
alone. Isaiah 43:11, Psalm 3:8

As for whether the author was wrong on another matter,
that is not what I quoted him for, so is irrelevant to this.

 

[pinacled]

It is interesting that out of all those verses you quoted, only one includes the word "Almighty" and that text (Rev 1:8) refers to the Father (see vss. 4-5 to understand the Father, "which is, and which was, and which is to come", is the subject of verse 4 and the Son is the subject of verse 5). That means you are reading "Almighty" into the other texts.

Here is a verse that makes it clear that Yeshua, the Lamb, is not YHWH God Almighty:

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.​

Two beings 1) the Father, YHWH God Almighty 2) the Son, the Lamb.

I commend your persistence. Thought it is misdirected.
Why not read the entirety of ch. 21. ?

Familiar as you may be, this thread is for edification. And no formal education is needed.

May the Lord bless you in your search.

 

[gadar perets]

The son became flesh as the universe came to be, in order
to interact with it.

The universe came to be about 2,000 years ago when Yeshua became flesh???

Yeshua, being the son and the father, ...

If that were true, then language is worthless. In all Biblical texts, YHWH is the Father and Yeshua is the Son. In no language on earth can a father be his own son. In no language on earth can a son be his own father. You make a mockery out of those words as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If your view is true, then we have all been deceived by the Spirit.

God gives these powers to nobody, because they are his
alone. Isaiah 43:11, Psalm 3:8

Matthew 28:18 And Yeshua came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

Yeshua was GIVEN all power. By whom? His Father YHWH. He did not always have all power.

 

[gadar perets]

I commend your persistence. Thought it is misdirected.
Why not read the entirety of ch. 21. ?

Familiar as you may be, this thread is for edification. And no formal education is needed.

May the Lord bless you in your search.

I have provided a wealth of Scriptural proof against the belief that the Father became the Son (fathered himself). If you think my view is "misdirected", then correct my direction by refuting my view with Scripture. Just telling me I am "misdirected" doesn't help. Telling me to read a chapter doesn't help either. I've read chapter 21 many times. You need to point out what you want me to see in that chapter.

 

[gadar perets]

You hit the nail squarely on the head
​

Was equally appalled and at a loss of words to even respond. Glad that you did not mince words. Just couldn't believe that an MJ could make such a statement.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make humankind in Our image, in the likeness of Ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth."

John 3:11
“I assure you: We speak what We know and We testify to what We have seen, but you[a] do not accept Our testimony."

I see you are still reading Yeshua into OT texts. That being the case, then John 3:11, as though you spoke those words, should read:

John 3:11
“I assure you: We speak what We assume and We testify to what We have not seen, but you[a] do not accept Our testimony."​

You would be correct. I cannot accept a testimony where anything is read into a text. However, I can accept Yeshua's testimony because he spoke truth without making assumptions.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua has the attributes of God because He is God:
He knows everything (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29),

He did not know the day and the hour of certain future prophetic events (Mark 13:32).

He is everywhere (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Acts 18:10),

Yes, now that he is a glorified being.

He has all power (Matthew 8:26–27; 28:18; John 11:38–44; Luke 7:14–15; Revelation 1:8),

Yes, now that he is glorified. Prior to that, the Father did the miraculous works through Yeshua. Yeshua, on his own, was powerless (John 5:19, 30; 8:28; 14:10).

He depends on nothing outside of himself for life (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58),

Yeshua was dependent on his Father for everything, including his life, which is why the Father resurrected him.

He rules over everything (Matthew 28:18; Revelation 1:5; 19:16,

Yes, now that he is glorified.

He never began to exist and never will cease to exist (John 1:1; 8:58),

"The genealogy of Yeshua Messiah the SON of David, the SON of Abraham".​

If Yeshua lived in some form before Abraham and David, he was not their son, and the statement is false.

1Corinthians 15:45-46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. ​

Adam, the natural man, existed before the spiritual man, Yeshua. Yeshua's natural man existed before his spiritual man.

He is our Creator (Colossians 1:16).

Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
​

Yeshua's Father is our Creator. He created everything in, for, through and unto His Son.

In Revelation 4:8-11, the Creator sits upon His throne being glorified. In Revelation 5:6-7, the Lamb, Yeshua, takes the book out of the Creator's hand.

 

[pat34lee]

The universe came to be about 2,000 years ago when Yeshua became flesh???

Everywhere Yahweh acts in the OT, that is Yeshua.
Yeshua created everything by the will of Yahweh.

 

[AbbaLove]

Are all the [Tanakh] passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?
( is this a rhetorical question ? )

Messiah Yeshua is the only begotten Son of Father God.
( Brit Chadashah passages )​

John 10:30 CJB
I and the Father are one.
John 10:37-38 CJB
37 “If I am not doing deeds that reflect my Father’s power, don’t trust me.
38 But if I am, then, even if you don’t trust me, trust the deeds; so that you may understand once and for all that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”
John 14:6 CJB
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9 CJB
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.”
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

HOWEVER, with respect to the Title of this Thread (as worded by Lulav) are all the passages in the Tanakh claiming relationship to Messiah, true? Well, that's the never-ending controversy between Orthodox Judaism and Messianic Judaism. It is evident from the lengthy Formal Debate in 2014 ( http://www.christianforums.com/thre...yeshua-jesus-fulfill-it.7825104/#post65712909 ) between pshun2404 and yonah_mishael, as well as the recent comment by yonah_mishal in this thread that many Orthodox Jews would not be inclined to interpret Isaiah 53 the way that many Messianic Jews interpret Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 53 is not forbidden by anyone. It is misunderstood and poorly interpreted by most. This passage should be called "the misunderstood chapter" (הפרק הלא מובן).

So, it's a little confusing exactly what Lulav intended to accomplish by her wording of the Title of this Thread. We all should agree with pinacled when he says, "... this thread is for edification. And no formal education is needed. May the Lord bless you in your search."

The Rhetorical Question Posed By Lulav Reworded:
What passages in the Tanakh "claim" Israel's Messiah will be conceived supernaturally, born of a virgin (Son of G-d)?
... (in other words the apple doesn't fall far from the tree ... like Father like Son ... "My LORD and my God"

... or in other words (same question) ...​

What passages in the Tanakh "claim" a relationship between Father G-d and Israel's Messiah that the Messiah will in fact be the very manifestation of G-d (passages similar to those of the Brit Chadashah John 10:30, John 10:38, John 20:28)?

 

[gadar perets]

Everywhere Yahweh acts in the OT, that is Yeshua

Isaiah says your wrong.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Did Yeshua lay our iniquities on himself? No.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

Did Yeshua bruise himself and put himself to grief? Now that Yeshua is prospering, is he doing so by YHWH's pleasure or his own?

Yeshua created everything by the will of Yahweh.

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name [YHWH], and what is his son's name [Yeshua], if thou canst tell?" (Proverbs 30:4).

"And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God [YHWH] with one accord, and said, Lord [YHWH], thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Who [YHWH, the Creator] by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord [YHWH], and against his Messiah [Yeshua].
For of a truth against thy [YHWH's] holy child Yeshua, whom thou [YHWH] hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:24-28
​

You have been misled by translators into believing Yeshua directly created everything, but the fact is, YHWH directly created everything through His Son.

​

 

[gadar perets]

John 14:6 CJB
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9 CJB
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.”
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Curious combination of verses. Yeshua is the WAY to the Father. We must go "through" Yeshua in order to "come to the Father". Yet, just by seeing Yeshua, Philip had been with the Father? Philip did not have to go "through" Yeshua to get to the Father if Yeshua is the Father. In fact, if your view is correct, then everyone who receives Yeshua as Savior comes to the Father without going "through" Yeshua. Obviously, you are misunderstanding Yeshua's words.

If your view that Yeshua is the Father is correct, then there are some strange teachings in the NT. Here are a few:

Yeshua was begotten by himself (John 1:14)
The Temple was really Yeshua's house (John 2:16)
Yeshua was working while Yeshua was working (John 5:17)
Yeshua loves his Son (John 5:20)
Yeshua gave life in himself to himself (John 5:23)
All that Yeshua gives to himself will come to him (John 6:37)
No man has seen Yeshua except Yeshua who has seen Yeshua (John 6:46)​

And one of my favorite:

Yeshua that sent Yeshua is with Yeshua. Yeshua has not left Yeshua alone. For Yeshua always does things that please Yeshua (John 8:29).​

This is only a sampling of the confusion that the "Oneness" doctrine causes. I will have nothing to do with it. I suggest you abandon it yourself.

 

[pat34lee]

Isaiah says your wrong.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Did Yeshua lay our iniquities on himself? No.

Are those actions or intent? Intent, or will begins with the Father.
Yeshua is the hands and feet and voice of Yahweh. To a lesser degree,
we are the hands, feet and voice of Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

Are those actions or intent? Intent, or will begins with the Father.
Yeshua is the hands and feet and voice of Yahweh. To a lesser degree,
we are the hands, feet and voice of Yeshua.

When the prophecy was given by Isaiah, it was intent. When the prophecy was fulfilled, it was action.

Also, the hands, feet and voice YHWH used to complete those actions belonged to the Romans and the unbelieving Jews, not Yeshua.

 

[visionary]

The universe came to be about 2,000 years ago when Yeshua became flesh???

The Universe was aprox. 4,000 years old when Yeshua became flesh.

If that were true, then language is worthless. In all Biblical texts, YHWH is the Father and Yeshua is the Son. In no language on earth can a father be his own son. In no language on earth can a son be his own father. You make a mockery out of those words as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If your view is true, then we have all been deceived by the Spirit.

God is not of this world, nor is there words that can fully describe Him.

Matthew 28:18 And Yeshua came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

Yeshua was GIVEN all power. By whom? His Father YHWH. He did not always have all power.

What gives me strength and power? .... God via Holy Spirit...
We are in His image... The same principle applies... via Holy Spirit things happen. Flesh is the image... Put it all together... God is the Spirit which chose to come in the flesh. That part which came in the flesh He called His only Begotten Son. It is a part of Him before, during, and after forever more. This is not something the human mind can fully comprehend. But remember this one thing... There is only One God.... IN the flesh we know Him as Yeshua...

 

[pat34lee]

When the prophecy was given by Isaiah, it was intent. When the prophecy was fulfilled, it was action.

Also, the hands, feet and voice YHWH used to complete those actions belonged to the Romans and the unbelieving Jews, not Yeshua.

They couldn't perform the actions on an unwilling messiah.
They couldn't harm or kill him unless he let them. He alone
decided when the punishment was enough and when to die.

 

[gadar perets]

What gives me strength and power? .... God via Holy Spirit...
We are in His image... The same principle applies... via Holy Spirit things happen. Flesh is the image... Put it all together... God is the Spirit which chose to come in the flesh. That part which came in the flesh He called His only Begotten Son. It is a part of Him before, during, and after forever more. This is not something the human mind can fully comprehend.

So, part of God came in the flesh and the other part remained in heaven? So when Yeshua died, he wasn't really dead. Part of him was still alive. So when Scripture says, "the dead know nothing", that was not true concerning Yeshua because he knew everything that was going on while he was supposedly dead. The fact is, Father YHWH put a part of Himself (His Holy Spirit) in Yeshua (a separate being). Yeshua then experienced 100% death for us. His Father (a separate being) then raised Yeshua from the dead. Yeshua then ascended to heaven to sit on the right hand of YHWH (Psalm 110:1 - two separate beings sitting side by side). That is a major part of the Gospel, but your gospel has the eternal, immortal Father becoming the Son and dying for us, later to resurrect himself and ascend to heaven to sit beside himself.

But remember this one thing... There is only One God.... IN the flesh we know Him as Yeshua...

So, in the flesh he was Yeshua. I assume you know him as YHWH before he became flesh. Now that he has been glorified and returned to heaven, is he YHWH once again, or Yeshua, or both?

The answer is "Yeshua". He never was and never will be YHWH, the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We are also taught the following;

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Yeshua], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him [YHWH] that put all things under him [Yeshua], that God [YHWH] may be all in all.​

So, what you are telling me is that Yeshua put all things under himself, but will eventually turn the Kingdom over to himself.

Please harmonize Psalm 110:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 with your view that Yeshua is Father YHWH.

 

[gadar perets]

They couldn't perform the actions on an unwilling messiah.
They couldn't harm or kill him unless he let them. He alone
decided when the punishment was enough and when to die.

His willingness to be bruised by YHWH and to allow YHWH to lay our iniquities upon himself doesn't change the fact that it was another being by the name "YHWH" that performed those actions upon His Son. Yeshua did NOT do those things to himself.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeshua referred to himself as both the son of man and the Son of God. Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God. In other words ... like Father like Son ... to the point that Thomas said, "My LORD and my God!"

So, what we're finally getting around to realizing is the intended context of Lulav's Title of this Thread ... "Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?" Lulav is not so much questioning whether all the passages in the Hebrew Tanakh are true, as much as questioning whether all the passages in the Brit Chadashah are true?

Neither Vis, pat34lee, pinacled or myself have ever said that "Yeshua is the Father" and neither did Yeshua ever say, that he is the Father. Your following distortion is a prime example of the extent you go to with disinformation in your attempt to discredit other members; while supporting your belief that Yeshua is "an elohim" and your other beliefs one of which another member referred to as "heresy."

gadar perets said :

If your view that Yeshua is the Father is correct, then there are some strange teachings in the NT. Here are a few:​

Yeshua was begotten by himself (John 1:14)

The Temple was really Yeshua's house (John 2:16)
Yeshua was working while Yeshua was working (John 5:1
Yeshua loves his Son (John 5:20)
Yeshua gave life in himself to himself (John 5:23)
All that Yeshua gives to himself will come to him (John 6:37)
No man has seen Yeshua except Yeshua who has seen Yeshua (John 6:46)​

Yeshua prayed to his Father and refers to himself as both the "son of man" and the "Son of God."

Messiah Yeshua is the "only begotten Son" of Father God.
( Brit Chadashah passages John 3:16, 1 John 4:9 )​

John 10:30 CJB
I and the Father are one.
John 10:37-38 CJB
37 “If I am not doing deeds that reflect my Father’s power, don’t trust me.
38 But if I am, then, even if you don’t trust me, trust the deeds; so that you may understand once and for all that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”
John 14:6 CJB
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9 CJB
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.”
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

So, Again it's not so much that Lulav is questioning whether or not these passages claiming relationship to Messiah are true, but rather differences in how some MJs interpret them one way; while other MJs interpret them another way or possible reject them as not true which would be heresy.

It becomes apparent that the Title of this Thread is NOT so much questioning whether all the passages in the Tanakh are true or whether all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah in the Brit Chadashah, are true? Instead how MJs should correctly interpret passages like those from the Gospel of John.

Perhaps the passage by Thomas ("My LORD and my God") is an example of what Lulav is referring to when she asks, Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true? Perhaps what Lulav really meant to ask is: Are certain passages claiming relationship to Messiah, misinterpreted? After all hasn't the SOP for this MJ forum always made it clear that the complete Hebrew/Jewish Bible (Tanakh/Brit Chadashah) is in fact True (inspired of God). What does it say about Messianic Judaism when MJs can't agree on how to interpret the very words of Yeshua in the Gospel of John or ask the question: Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

Just reminder everyone, I did not start this thread, and I would never name a thread of mine what is the title of this one.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua referred to himself as both the son of man and the Son of God. Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God. In other words ... like Father like Son ... to the point that Thomas said, "My LORD and my God!"

I fully believe Yeshua is the son of man and the Son of God. I believe he is "like" the Father. I just don't believe he IS the Father and since the Father is God and there is only one true God, then Yeshua cannot be that one true God. He is an Elohim of lesser degree than his Father.

Neither Vis, pat34lee, pinacled or myself have ever said that "Yeshua is the Father" and neither did Yeshua ever say, that he is the Father. Your following distortion is a prime example of the extent you go to with disinformation in your attempt to discredit other members; while supporting your belief that Yeshua is "an elohim" and your other beliefs one of which another member referred to as "heresy."

You my not have used those exact words, but that is what you are teaching. Here is one exchange in the "All Actions of God in the OT is Yeshua" thread showing that vis believes the Father and the Son are one and the same being.

↑Being non-trinitarian, it is amazing at how much separation this presentation is trying to put between God and Yeshua.

The "presentation" is meant to restore the truth. Yeshua himself made the separation clear when he said,
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yeshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

gadar perets, May 14, 2016

One and the same.

visionary, May 14, 2016

As for you AbbaLove, you directed me to Ellen's article, G-d is One, Not A Trinity
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html in which she wrote;

"Yeshua said "I and the Father are One."

This flat out disputes the concept of Yeshua being the 'second person of the trinity' since He is identifying Himself as the Father"

Are you now saying you disagree with her? If so, HalleluYah!

So, Again it's not so much that Lulav is questioning whether or not these passages claiming relationship to Messiah are true, but rather differences in how some MJs interpret them one way; while other MJs interpret them another way or possible reject them as not true which would be heresy.

It becomes apparent that the Title of this Thread is NOT so much questioning whether all the passages in the Tanakh are true or whether all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah in the Brit Chadashah, are true? Instead how MJs should correctly interpret passages like those from the Gospel of John.

Perhaps the passage by Thomas ("My LORD and my God") is an example of what Lulav is referring to when she asks, Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true? Perhaps what Lulav really meant to ask is: Are certain passages claiming relationship to Messiah, misinterpreted? After all hasn't the SOP for this MJ forum always made it clear that the complete Hebrew/Jewish Bible (Tanakh/Brit Chadashah) is in fact True (inspired of God). What does it say about Messianic Judaism when MJs can't agree on how to interpret the very words of Yeshua in the Gospel of John or ask the question: Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

This thread that Lulav started was split off from the Name the prophecies in the Old Testament about Yeshua thread.

So, as I understand it, the name of this thread, Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true? means, are the prophecies in the OT that Christians claim refer to Yeshua truly referring to Yeshua.

 

[AbbaLove]

I fully believe Yeshua is the son of man and the Son of God. I believe he is "like" the Father. I just don't believe he IS the Father and since the Father is God and there is only one true God, then Yeshua cannot be that one true God. He is an Elohim of lesser degree than his Father.

You now refer to Yeshua as "an Elohim" (capitialized) instead of "an elohim" ... "that is of lesser degree than his Father." You then go on to say ...

As for you AbbaLove, you directed me to Ellen's article, G-d is One, Not A Trinity
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html in which she wrote;

"Yeshua said, "I and the Father are One."

This flat out disputes the concept of Yeshua being the 'second person of the trinity' since He is identifying Himself as [one with] the Father"
​

Are you now saying you disagree with her? If so, HalleluYah!​

Au Contraire! How would you ever get that idea after the passages from John previously posted and posted below again after reading and rereading the very words of Yeshua Himself. Ellen, Vis, myself and other MJs do not believe in the RCCs concept of the Trinity. What Ellen is saying is that Yeshua is not the 'second person of the trinity' since Yeshua is identifying Himself as one with the Father. Ellen therefore believes the following passages to be truthful as does Messianic Judaism.

John 10:30 CJB
I and the Father are one.
John 10:37-38 CJB
37 “If I am not doing deeds that reflect my Father’s power, don’t trust me.
38 But if I am, then, even if you don’t trust me, trust the deeds; so that you may understand once and for all that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”
John 14:6 CJB
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9 CJB
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.”
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Are you now saying you agree with Ellen's Messianic Judaism article? If so, HalleluYah!
​

These verses explain why Visonary, myself, Ellen and other MJs do not believe in the RCCs Trinity, but rather that God is One (including Mashiach Yeshua). What Visionary has said in the other thread and over and over again in so many words in this thread is what the majority of MJs believe when it comes to Mashiach Yeshua's relationship with Elohim ...

Visionary said: He is God in the flesh.... can't get any clearer than that.

​

You seem to be the only MJ in this thread and the other thread that believes Mashiach Yeshua is "an elohim" or as you now state that Mashiach Yeshua is "an Elohim of lesser degree than His Father."

Anyone who the Father gives that power and authority to can give eternal life. Yeshua did not always have the power to give eternal life because he did not have eternal life in himself. Once he was given eternal life in himself, he was able to give eternal life to others.

Heresy. Wrong is just too mild for this.
Yahweh is spirit, Yeshua is flesh. The two are one.
No one else has, can or will be able to give eternal life.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/yeshua_is_god.htm

Excellent link! Thanks for posting.

This thread that Lulav started was split off from the Name the prophecies in the Old Testament about Yeshua thread.
So, as I understand it, the name of this thread, Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true? means, are the prophecies in the OT that Christians claim refer to Yeshua truly referring to Yeshua.

You are partially correct. However, Lulav is not directing her question to Christians or she would have posted it in a Christian forum. Lulav wouldn't purposely start a new thread just to cause dissension between Christians and Messianic Judaism. Can you think of any passages in the Tanakh claiming relationship to Mashiach Yeshua that are not true? So, the intent of Lulav's question may have been more along the thinking of: Can you think of any passages in the Tanakh claiming relationship to Mashiach Yeshua that elements of Messianic Judaism misinterpret?

Just reminder everyone, I did not start this thread, and I would never name a thread of mine what is the title of this one.

 

[gadar perets]

You now refer to Yeshua as "an Elohim" (capitialized) instead of "an elohim" ... "that is of lesser degree than his Father."

I told you in a previous post that I was being inconsistent with my use of capitals, so I decided to use "Elohim". Since I capitalize "Savior" and "Lord" when referring to Yeshua, I might as well capitalize "Elohim" as well.

You then go on to say ...

As for you AbbaLove, you directed me to Ellen's article, G-d is One, Not A Trinity
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html in which she wrote;

"Yeshua said, "I and the Father are One."

This flat out disputes the concept of Yeshua being the 'second person of the trinity' since He is identifying Himself as [within] the Father"
​

Are you now saying you disagree with her? If so, HalleluYah!​

​

WOW!!! You are quoting my words by saying, "You then go on to say...", but I did not say "[within] the Father". Neither did Ellen. You added the word [within] without telling the forum that was your addition. How dishonest can you get AbbaLove? Or did you just forget to tell us "[within]" was your addition?

Au Contraire! How would you ever get that idea after the passages from John previously posted and posted again below after reading the very words of Yeshua Himself. Ellen, Vis, myself and other MJs do not believe in the RCCs concept of the Trinity. What Ellen is saying is that Yeshua is not the 'second person of the trinity' since Yeshua is identifying Himself with the Father.

You say she is saying "Yeshua is identifying Himself with the Father", but she actually said, " He is identifying Himself as the Father." She even put "Father" in bold. You can try and cover for Ellen, but her words are loud and clear without your added word "within" or "with".

Further down in the same article she writes, "Yeshua is the Father as well as the Son" and "It is clear that Yeshua is not relegated Scripturally to only being the Son, the second person of the godhead, but that Yeshua is the Father too!"
This is one reason why I replied to those articles by saying, "Those two articles are far from true."

Ellen therefore believes the following passages to be truthful as does Messianic Judaism.

John 10:30 CJB
I and the Father are one.
John 10:37-38 CJB
37 “If I am not doing deeds that reflect my Father’s power, don’t trust me.
38 But if I am, then, even if you don’t trust me, trust the deeds; so that you may understand once and for all that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the Father.”
John 14:6 CJB
Yeshua said, “I AM the Way — and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9 CJB
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.”
9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Are you now saying you agree with Ellen's Messianic Judaism article? If so, HalleluYah!​

I agree that the above passages are truthful. It is your interpretation that is false. As for Ellen's articles, I'm glad I did not trash them as they are good to show the errors people make in interpreting Scripture.

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These verses explain why Vis, Ellen and other MJs don't believe in the RCCs Trinity, but rather that God is one.

I reject the RCC trinity as well. In MJs rejection of the RCC trinity, they threw away some truth (that the Father is NOT the Son) and embraced the exact opposite (that the Father IS the Son).

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You seem to be the only MJ in this thread and the other thread that believes Mashiach Yeshua is "an elohim" or as you now state that Mashiach Yeshua is "an Elohim of lesser degree than His Father."

I may be the only one bold enough to speak up, but there are others out there that believe just like me. Even if there were no others, that makes no difference. I know what the Spirit has taught and I know how to refute what is false.

Can you think of any passages in the Tanakh claiming relationship to Mashiach Yeshua that are not true?

They are all true.

Can you think of any passages in the Tanakh claiming relationship to Mashiach Yeshua that elements of Messianic Judaism misinterpret?

Yes. Plenty. Just review the "Name the prophecies in the Old Testament about Yeshua" thread and you will see many misinterpreted verses/passages from the Tanakh that I offered correction on.