Apostasy - And The Future Of Scripture Based Faith/Churches-R U Concerned?

[Lavendar Frog]

Before beginning this discussion please and per the rules of the forum : Keep in mind the rules for discussion in this forum as pertains to certain restrictions.

Do not refer to any Nicene Creed believing church/denomination that has been in the news recently and as reported, voting to approve certain ungodly marriages.

Also avoid any references to Homosexuality as this is not allowed in but select areas of the forum and that does not include this one.
Let's begin.

As we've read certain denominations are allowing things contrary to scripture and often by vote of the elders or some other body in charge of shepherding the flock of the church.

How should we respond when a vote is cast to turn from the word and to the world?
If you are a member of one such church please consider sharing your personal experience and opinion, keeping the rules in mind.
Did you stay with that particular church-denomination?
If not did you move to another or are you keeping to yourself for the moment?

When the leadership leads the faithful in the wrong direction is it incumbent on the faithful in the pews to turn things around? Speak out? Ask for a meeting between the congregants and those responsible for the change?

Sometimes people are afraid to leave such a church. They're faithful to the pastor, the church, their denomination, and feel they'll lose all their friends in the church if they are one to depart from it. Often they feel that way because they're told that will be the way it is should they depart after taking issue with those in authority.

But isn't God the authority?
Scripture says when it comes between honoring the laws of man or God the Christian should choose God. (Paraphrasing).

So, what are your thoughts on this topic? That is fast becoming more relevant as the headlines bring it to our attention more frequently.

I look forward to open honest and loving discussion. This isn't intended to invite those who thrive on conflict. If your heart is inclined to feel that way reading this please take a breath, consider your thoughts, ask if Jesus were there reading your typing would he be proud of how you represent him in this Christians Only forum area and with regard to sharing your thoughts on this topic, maybe pray on it, and then act as God moves you to act.

I think this is something we should discuss openly. And we can only get somewhere if we discuss it as the church that we are, the faithful, coming together to share on a valid topic of great concern. Apostasy. And what it means to us personally, and to the church/denomination we maybe affiliated with, and to the future of the faith itself in this rapidly changing world.

God Bless, and thank you for reading.

 

[Albion]

The only real option is to join a church (of your family of faith, presumably) that has NOT made such an unacceptable choice.

And they do exist, no matter which denomination we're speaking of. Because these are normally smaller church bodies, there may be cases where none is within driving distance. But in that case, there are often alternatives available with other, but nevertheless similar, denominations.

IMHO, the sad part of this is that so many who know what's right and know what they ought to do will simply stay home or else feel reluctant to make the move because of not wanting to lose friends or give up the church building their parents helped build, or something else like that.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

Agreed. And especially with the last part of your observation.
I'd hope such people would seek the council of Christ in prayer. And hopefully come to realize that church that turned from the scripture is no longer the church their family helped build. It is different now. And their friends are at risk of being not only led to the wrong path now, but that their pastor and those who have assumed the responsibility of being overseers of the flock Christ gave to their charge, are held to a higher account before God come time. Their deviating from the way is something they shall answer for in the end.
The flock should not have to answer as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was faced with that decision when I fully trusted Christ as a young adult. My family's church, although ostensibly, orthodox, was actually universalist in its theology. It was affiliated with the denominational seminary which was right across the street. Thus, my decision related not only to the particular church body, but also to the denomination.

The result was that I spent several years of intense prayer and study before I found a body of believers who I believe to be faithful to the faith once delivered to the saints. It has been about forty years now and I have grown and matured in my faith thanks, in no small part, to the Christians in my church.

 

[Albion]

I was faced with that decision when I fully trusted Christ as a young adult. My family's church, although ostensibly, orthodox, was actually universalist in its theology. It was affiliated with the denominational seminary which was right across the street. Thus, my decision related not only to the particular church body, but also to the denomination.

The result was that I spent several years of intense prayer and study before I found a body of believers who I believe to be faithful to the faith once delivered to the saints. It has been about forty years now and I have grown and matured in my faith thanks, in no small part, to the Christians in my church.

Thanks for your testimony. The ties to the old church are so strong and emotional, but if a person is really convicted, there can almost always be a successful change like the one you experienced.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

My pastor once said, "The problem with churches today is that whenever there is a problem within the church people just leave and go to another church."

We should stick it out and attempt reform the church back to what it should be. Should we just leave and let the church self-destruct? I think that is a problem in America, we tend to never stick it out in the suck and try to fix the problems, but just leave and hope somebody else does.

 

[James Is Back]

My pastor once said, "The problem with churches today is that whenever there is a problem within the church people just leave and go to another church."

We should stick it out and attempt reform the church back to what it should be. Should we just leave and let the church self-destruct? I think that is a problem in America, we tend to never stick it out in the suck and try to fix the problems, but just leave and hope somebody else does.

Problem with that is that the whole church is the problem. From the pastor to the congregation. So if a church has apostatized how does one or 2 people fix it? If the leadership is leading the congreg straight off the cliff like lemmings and the congreg are blindly following said leadership there is not much you can do except maybe approach the leadership on the issue but that might end up being futile and you may end up getting kicked out of the church anyway.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Problem with that is that the whole church is the problem. From the pastor to the congregation. So if a church has apostatized how does one or 2 people fix it? If the leadership is leading the congreg straight off the cliff like lemmings and the congreg are blindly following said leadership there is not much you can do except maybe approach the leadership on the issue but that might end up being futile and you may end up getting kicked out of the church anyway.

I guess I prefer to "fight it out" until the end. I don't like to give up on people. I guess the whole "shake your dust off and walk away" would be sensible. I guess it depends on the apostasy?

A lot of churches write off certain sins as acceptable, which is a big problem the OP makes note of. It is curious to me is which ones people seem to agree with as ok and which ones they do not. The sins they agree with is usually the ones they look away from because rebuking over it will lost church members/money. if the sin 'works" for the society as a whole, like say greed works well with our economy..they look away. So I guess it would be wise to walk away from that. Another example, divorce used to be a big deal years ago, but now people don't view it as a sin. I find this disturbing, and someone would view this as a example of the end times, but this sort of thing has been going on for centuries. Perhaps the weakness of men cause these problems.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

My pastor once said, "The problem with churches today is that whenever there is a problem within the church people just leave and go to another church."

We should stick it out and attempt reform the church back to what it should be. Should we just leave and let the church self-destruct? I think that is a problem in America, we tend to never stick it out in the suck and try to fix the problems, but just leave and hope somebody else does.

If the church elders, for example, voted to turn from the gospel and to the teachings of the world so as to corrupt the scriptures around those, didn't they already by their vote cause the church to self-destruct?
What would the suggestions be as relate to what congregants could do to change what a minority body of trusted overseers voted on without those congregants input and on their behalf? If they find themselves in that kind of church.

 

[Rhamiel]

My pastor once said, "The problem with churches today is that whenever there is a problem within the church people just leave and go to another church."

We should stick it out and attempt reform the church back to what it should be. Should we just leave and let the church self-destruct? I think that is a problem in America, we tend to never stick it out in the suck and try to fix the problems, but just leave and hope somebody else does.

I see your point....

but people go to Church to be fed spiritually
like a lot of people criticize "bench warmer" Christians
"oh they do not contribute anything but they just want to be pandered too..."

Yeah, there are a lot of people like that
but look at it this way

you work around a lot of people who worldly, and you have not been discriminated against, but there have been little jokes and slights at work about your Faith, and you just feel left out in general

then you go home, and you have to deal with money problems, you aunt is sick and you know she might be near the end of her life, your wife is having problems with her job (or maybe you are not even married yet and that is a whole separate pile of stresses)

you are having some spiritual dryness, some doubts, whatever...

and THEN after all of this, on Sunday, the Day of Rest, you go to a church where the Gospel is NOT being presented, where instead of hearing for a call to conversion you hear a call for acceptance of sin...

yeah, sticking there and fighting for change from the inside is the heroic thing
but a lot of people are just beat up and worn out and are just trying to find a good church where they can worship God in faith and truth

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Apostasy - And The Future Of Scripture Based Faith/Churches-R U Concerned?

I suppose we need to define what the biblical meaning of "Apostasy" is.

[The 2 verses listed below are the only times that particular greek word is used in the NT.]

The verse in Acts 21 appears to imply that Paul was teaching against the Law of Moses and perhaps they conceived him as an "apostate" himself?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=KJV

Acts 21:21
"They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses,
the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be about walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]

Another time it is used is in 2 Thess, concerning the future endtime and man of sin revealed:

2 Thess 2:3
No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the son of the destruction.

I actually have thread on that if others are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-the-apostasy-in-2-thess-2.7280592/#post-48456361
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs.[1] One who commits apostasy (or who apostatizes) is known as an apostate.
The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.

Many religious groups and some states punish apostates. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group[2] or subjected to formal or informal punishment. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may simply be the voluntary action of its members. Certain churches may in certain circumstances excommunicate the apostate, while some religious scriptures demand the death penalty for apostates. Examples of punishment by death for apostates can be found under the Sharia code of Islam.[3][4]

 

[Albion]

My pastor once said, "The problem with churches today is that whenever there is a problem within the church people just leave and go to another church."

We should stick it out and attempt reform the church back to what it should be. Should we just leave and let the church self-destruct? I think that is a problem in America, we tend to never stick it out in the suck and try to fix the problems, but just leave and hope somebody else does.

I cannot agree. If there is an occasional problem with one or several members, maybe. But most of the time, the problem is much, much more widespread and entrenched than that. Many times, it's something that is wrong with the national or regional church and not easily fixed at the local level. Then too, there often are as many people who like what's gone wrong as those who do not, also making our hypothetical problem-solver's job even less promising.

As a result, the conscientious person thinks just what you referred to--not to be a quitter, don't abandon the church, roll up your sleeves and work to change things. But that means that he's spending months and years FIGHTING instead of growing spiritually. Since there is nothing all that special or unique about any congregation, the better choice often is to get out of that mess and be with people who have their heads screwed on straight.

 

[James Is Back]

I cannot agree. If there is an occasional problem with one or several members, maybe. But most of the time, the problem is much, much more widespread and entrenched than that. Many times, it's something that is wrong with the national or regional church and not easily fixed at the local level. Then too, there often are as many people who like what's gone wrong as those who do not, also making our hypothetical problem-solver's job even less promising.

As a result, the conscientious person thinks just what you referred to--not to be a quitter, don't abandon the church, roll up your sleeves and work to change things. But that means that he's spending months and years FIGHTING instead of growing spiritually. Since there is nothing all that special or unique about any congregation, the better choice often is to get out of that mess and be with people who have their heads screwed on straight.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

I cannot agree. If there is an occasional problem with one or several members, maybe. But most of the time, the problem is much, much more widespread and entrenched than that. Many times, it's something that is wrong with the national or regional church and not easily fixed at the local level. Then too, there often are as many people who like what's gone wrong as those who do not, also making our hypothetical problem-solver's job even less promising.

As a result, the conscientious person thinks just what you referred to--not to be a quitter, don't abandon the church, roll up your sleeves and work to change things. But that means that he's spending months and years FIGHTING instead of growing spiritually. Since there is nothing all that special or unique about any congregation, the better choice often is to get out of that mess and be with people who have their heads screwed on straight.

Very well said.

And thank you LLoJ for sharing the definition so as to further the discussion.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I cannot agree. If there is an occasional problem with one or several members, maybe. But most of the time, the problem is much, much more widespread and entrenched than that. Many times, it's something that is wrong with the national or regional church and not easily fixed at the local level. Then too, there often are as many people who like what's gone wrong as those who do not, also making our hypothetical problem-solver's job even less promising.

As a result, the conscientious person thinks just what you referred to--not to be a quitter, don't abandon the church, roll up your sleeves and work to change things. But that means that he's spending months and years FIGHTING instead of growing spiritually. Since there is nothing all that special or unique about any congregation, the better choice often is to get out of that mess and be with people who have their heads screwed on straight.

I guess we should be thankful we have so many churches, because we will always have another church to go to.

What do you mean there is nothing special about a congregation? You are not friends and brother with the people in your church? I view the people I go to church with as a spiritual family, and just like my actual brother I cannot stand by and let them fall.

 

[Albion]

What do you mean there is nothing special about a congregation?

To be completely honest, I had misgivings about the way I worded that. My apologies.

What I meant is that no congregation is "the one true church" or any thing like that. Consequently, leaving it for another is not something that in itself challenges anyone's fidelity to Christ, his church, or the Gospel. Certainly, any congregation can be "special" in other ways--being full of memories and friendships, for example.

It's not a decision to be made lightly, after you've given your loyalty to the assembly by formally joining. But you joined something that has moved away from what it was when you joined and gave your loyalty to, after all, so there really is no compelling reason to stay after it's gone astray.

And I'll add one more reason. By continuing to have the church that's gone wrong as one's own--and allow people outside the congregation to know that this is your church, even if what it has come to stand for is scandalous--you give a de facto testimony to approving of its wrongdoing by your continued membership.

This, in fact, is what's keeping some of these whited sepulchers up and going at present--the decent people who can't bring themselves to leave when they should.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

Agreed, Albion.

And unfortunately those whited sepulchers remaining up and running, with their congregation not diminishing noticeably, stand as an example to other churches that may be considering departure from the way.

Seeing other churches that have already departed not suffer loss of their congregations for their scandalous decision, those other churches could take that as a sign that congregants of a particular denomination are ready for and approve the change that occurred.

 

[FireDragon76]

Those churches the OP are talking about almost always allow minority voices of conscientious objection. It's just the conservatives that remain decide to focus on the essentials rather than divisive cultural issues.

There's no "perfect" faithful denomination out there. Yes, its very American to treat religion as an individual self-expression that you just reject when things get bad, but its not very traditionally Christian. It's very consumerist, more influenced by secular culture than the Gospel. No genuine faithful Christian witness can endure as long as Christians hop from one church to another whenever they deem the church they are in problematic.

 

[Lavendar Frog]

I'd make the observation that until your post no one here made the characterization of Episcopalians and other mainline Protestants as "apostate".

 

[Albion]

I do not like the characterization of Episcopalians and other mainline Protestants as "apostate". There is a whole forum here full of Episcopalians who take their faith seriously.

Well, you're the only poster on this thread to have mentioned any denomination in any context whatsoever, and to do that in defiance of the request made in the OP not to engage in such a thing.