Apostacy and Salvation

[golgotha61]

You don't think it's "far-out" to walk on water, heal blind people, resurrect Himself after being crucified, etc?

By modern standards these examples would be classified as workings of the super-natural. But as we have already discussed, for the ANE, and that is the context of these events, these were verifications of authority. An authority that superseded that of mankind and was in fact proofs of deity.

... if I was trying to convince myself that Christianity is true, then I would carefully investigate the best cases of reported miracles. If nobody can debunk these miracles, then I would have evidence of miracles. Then I would need to convince myself that Christianity is true and the other religions are false. Many religions claim miracles.

This is where you lose logic in your reasoning. I suggested before that you needed to be able to falsify the NT accounts in order to arrive at the conclusion that God does not exist and if He does exist that the Christian religion as presented by Christ is what He desires us to adopt. If you find someone in the present that says they have evidence of a miraculous event, it must necessarily be compared to the Bible in order to verify its authenticity as coming from God. But this is only a secondary miracle. The corner stone of and author of the NT miracles is Christ and these are the ones that were given to authenticate the authority and trustworthiness of the Christian faith, not the everyday miracles that God appears in. These daily miracles point back to Christ’s life, death, and resurrection, these daily miracles are not replacements for the biblical accounts, they point back to them. Otherwise God would never have deposited His self-revelation in the Bible and the request for a miraculous event outside of the resurrection of Christ is nothing short of blasphemy.

 

[cloudyday2]

Thanks, everybody, for the responses I'm not interested in being a Christian, so please don't waste your effort if you are trying to persuade me. If you are posting for the lurkers, then that's fine. Thanks.

 

[doomsayer2]

That's great,because i'm really not that interested in being a Christian either,deep down. But don't have a choice. If you saw what I do on a daily basis then you wouldn't either. Of course the Word of God is another good reason to believe.
And I would NOT suggest any of the Christian "lurkers" who are curious to ask God what the heck i'm talking about...unless you REALLY HAVE to know. But it's probably a moot point and comment anyway,but just something to ponder...

 

[cloudyday2]

That's great,because i'm really not that interested in being a Christian either,deep down. But don't have a choice. If you saw what I do on a daily basis then you wouldn't either. Of course the Word of God is another good reason to believe.
And I would NOT suggest any of the Christian "lurkers" who are curious to ask God what the heck i'm talking about...unless you REALLY HAVE to know. But it's probably a moot point and comment anyway,but just something to ponder...

I'm not sure what you have experienced to make you believe in Christianity. Most Christians would probably agree with me when I say that if you aren't happy to believe in Christianity then something may be wrong. When I was a Christian, I had hallucinations that convinced me that Christianity was true, but I also felt that Christianity was twisted, macabre, etc. I was having religiosity from psychosis. Normal Christians feel joyful and think their beliefs are elegant, wonderful, etc.

Have you posted your reasons for believing in Christianity? Maybe you can post some links? Sometimes it is good to get another person's opinions, and internet forums give some anonymity. Just a thought.

 

[Aidan K]

Personally, I won't know whether or not I'm saved until the day I die and meet my Maker. Therefor I work at being a good person every day of my life

 

[doomsayer2]

If I'm correct I believe you mentioned somewhere earlier that God would have to show you that He agreed with Christianity,in so many words. Well I don't believe God typically makes such blanket generalizations about such things that He may actually have more against than for,as far as "organized religion" goes. Besides,we both know that isn't the way He works as far as showing visible manifested "sign" that says 'YES,Christ is the ONLY way!' Once you start looking elsewhere outside of His Word,you can expect to start not finding those answers,as far as which "way" God truly agrees with,i will guarantee you that 110%. You may find your own answers and maybe even some contentment. And by the way,those "Christians" you say are always "elegant,wonderful,etc." are probably only putting on pretenses.
When a preacher stands up on national TV show he obviously is going to try his best to NOT look and act like he may really feel. That would be almost as bad as me saying "I am really not interested in being a Christian". And yes,that would mean something may be wrong with me,but I just don't believe in acting like someone I'm not.
I don't like labels,and I am who I am,period. But once you "join" a church/denomination you then conform to that which is around you,whether you even realize it happening. And it begins to feel like you can only go as far spiritually as the congregation will go,which usually isn't that far,unless maybe you are in some ultra-charismatic church,which is often more about individual experience than substance.
But I would say if you really had wanted to get some answers from the God you USED to believe in,all you had to do was be creative and ask for an answer in a way you could relate to and receive. For instance,suppose you went out one morning and immediately saw a license plate with 316 on it,as in John-3:16. Probably just a wild coincidence,unless you start seeing such things every day. But that would be extra-ordinary to say the least,and maybe such "signs" are reserved for only those who can receive them.
And from what I have seen,"316" would be child's play. Does that make me special? If God thinks so it would. But of course no one else wants to hear about something that they don't experience or can relate to. Which is why I'm glad no one else has been subjected to this...as far as I know?? Which is also why I KNOW beyond doubt that GOD of the Bible exists. Even the mean old nasty One of the Old Testament.
So there,how's that for a "posting",and didn't even need a link. Who knows,maybe this post itself will become a link someday?

 

[cloudyday2]

...
But I would say if you really had wanted to get some answers from the God you USED to believe in,all you had to do was be creative and ask for an answer in a way you could relate to and receive. For instance,suppose you went out one morning and immediately saw a license plate with 316 on it,as in John-3:16. Probably just a wild coincidence,unless you start seeing such things every day. But that would be extra-ordinary to say the least,and maybe such "signs" are reserved for only those who can receive them.
And from what I have seen,"316" would be child's play. Does that make me special? If God thinks so it would. But of course no one else wants to hear about something that they don't experience or can relate to. Which is why I'm glad no one else has been subjected to this...as far as I know?? Which is also why I KNOW beyond doubt that GOD of the Bible exists. Even the mean old nasty One of the Old Testament.
So there,how's that for a "posting",and didn't even need a link. Who knows,maybe this post itself will become a link someday?

Thanks @doomsayer2

Of course nobody can diagnose over the internet, and I'm not a professional, but it sounds a little bit like my own experiences. Eventually I told a therapist about my experiences and she told me about psychosis. It took several years for me to finally accept that diagnosis 100%. The thing people don't understand about hallucinations is that they can be indistinguishable from normal reality. The only way to detect a hallucination is to ask somebody else if they see, hear, smell, feel whatever. Even then, you can hallucinate the confirmation from the other person. You would probably need to ask for confirmation again days or weeks later, to be sure you didn't hallucinate the original confirmation.

I could go on and on, but I don't know if it is useful.

 

[aiki]

Of course nobody can diagnose over the internet, and I'm not a professional, but it sounds a little bit like my own experiences. Eventually I told a therapist about my experiences and she told me about psychosis. It took several years for me to finally accept that diagnosis 100%. The thing people don't understand about hallucinations is that they can be indistinguishable from normal reality. The only way to detect a hallucination is to ask somebody else if they see, hear, smell, feel whatever. Even then, you can hallucinate the confirmation from the other person. You would probably need to ask for confirmation again days or weeks later, to be sure you didn't hallucinate the original confirmation.

Well, I don't know what sort of "hallucinations" you were mistaking for experiences of God, but if you're trying to suggest that all Christians who claim to experience God are psychotic, well, you're both way out of line, and completely wrong.

Selah.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, I don't know what sort of "hallucinations" you were mistaking for experiences of God, but if you're trying to suggest that all Christians who claim to experience God are psychotic, well, you're both way out of line, and completely wrong.

Here is the thing: do you believe God would reveal himself to somebody, and that person would dislike what he/she sees of God? If a person is having psychosis, you are not doing that person a favor by telling him/her that everything is hunky dunk.

I had psychosis myself, so I am not trying to insult @doomsayer2 by suggesting the possibility. You don't need to be "crazy" to have psychosis. There are many different kinds of psychosis. It's as common as diabetes.

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks, everybody, for the responses I'm not interested in being a Christian, so please don't waste your effort if you are trying to persuade me. If you are posting for the lurkers, then that's fine. Thanks.

I am posting for you and have not ben considering anyone lurking. I do suspect you have been dissuaded from Christianity for a noble and respectable reason. It does not seem like you have turned your back on God. For that reason, I continue to use these opportunities to tell you the truth about it, in the hope one day it will come to the front of your mind at a time that makes it effective. Though we both know I cannot make that happen and you are not seeking to make it happen.

 

[aiki]

Here is the thing: do you believe God would reveal himself to somebody, and that person would dislike what he/she sees of God? If a person is having psychosis, you are not doing that person a favor by telling him/her that everything is hunky dunk.

There are times when I wish God was more human. He's so...different from me, so unrelenting in His holiness, and purity, truth and love. It can get rather...difficult to deal with. I am so often unholy, and impure, untruthful and unloving. But that really isn't God's problem, but mine.

I have heard Sam Harris describe religious people in general, and Christians in particular, as psychotic. But this is the prejudice of his worldview speaking, not a legitimate psychological diagnosis.

I had psychosis myself, so I am not trying to insult @doomsayer2 by suggesting the possibility. You don't need to be "crazy" to have psychosis. There are many different kinds of psychosis. It's as common as diabetes.

Yes, and what a wonderful boon to the psychiatric community to have everyone believing there is no normal behaviour, only degrees of dysfunction and psychosis! It certainly guarantees an abundance of work and income for psychiatrists! Pathologizing every negative human emotion has become epidemic in Western societies - and not to the betterment of those societies. Very often, this pathologizing of one's thoughts and feelings becomes a means of escaping personal responsibility for what one thinks and does. Such clinically-condoned irresponsibility, I believe, serves only to weaken and degenerate a society, not strengthen it.

Selah.

 

[cloudyday2]

I have heard Sam Harris describe religious people in general, and Christians in particular, as psychotic. But this is the prejudice of his worldview speaking, not a legitimate psychological diagnosis.

If that's true, then Sam Harris was very careless in his choice of words. Another term that atheists often use carelessly to describe Christians is "delusional".

Yes, and what a wonderful boon to the psychiatric community to have everyone believing there is no normal behaviour, only degrees of dysfunction and psychosis! It certainly guarantees an abundance of work and income for psychiatrists! Pathologizing every negative human emotion has become epidemic in Western societies - and not to the betterment of those societies. Very often, this pathologizing of one's thoughts and feelings becomes a means of escaping personal responsibility for what one thinks and does. Such clinically-condoned irresponsibility, I believe, serves only to weaken and degenerate a society, not strengthen it.

I agree with you somewhat - especially regarding psych meds. Everybody seems to be taking psych meds today. I think this has become an easy way out for people who should be in psychotherapy. The insurance companies pay for psych meds, but they are less eager to pay for psychotherapy. On the other hand, psych meds help some people who otherwise would be unable to function.

 

[cloudyday2]

@doomsayer2 , I hope you will consider the possibility of psychosis just in case that is what you have been experiencing. Psychosis is a lot more diverse and complex than people normally realize. Here is a forum where I have learned some things. It took me several years to accept that I had been experiencing psychosis, because I did not understand the range of symptoms. My hallucinations were sometimes weeks and months apart in the later phase. There are "positive" symptoms and "negative" symptoms and "prodromal" phases and so forth.
http://forums.psychcentral.com/schizophrenia-psychosis/

Here are a couple of Wikipedia articles. The second one describes how 20% of the population will experience a hallucination sometime. It's more common than most of use realize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_experiences

 

[doomsayer2]

Thanks 'cloudyday2' for your advice,but all I can say is it's not any kind of hallucinations,since you can't imagine seeing a number on a sign,license plate or address. If you did,I imagine it would probably look a lot different than normal? But my problem,if you want to call it that goes a whole lot deeper. But that's as far as i'll go since some things were apparently meant to be a secret I guess. If i told a "shrink" they would either think me crazy or would make them feel crazy if i were to explain it the way the Holy Spirit instructed me,where they were not able to debunk it.
Unfortunately I am not able to explain it now in that way,not being led of the Spirit to do so. But I can say that when you go out today or the next just keep your EYES open,cause you never know what God is prepared to reveal if you're really seeking. But He usually only works that way to those who are extremely open-minded and don't chalk up every "anomalous" experience to mere coincidence.

 

[Troy Rambo]

I think its ultimately up to the Lord whom judges your fate:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.

I think you should try your best to do the Lord's will to better your chances.

 

[cloudyday2]

Thanks 'cloudyday2' for your advice,but all I can say is it's not any kind of hallucinations,since you can't imagine seeing a number on a sign,license plate or address. If you did,I imagine it would probably look a lot different than normal?

Hallucinations can look as normal and boring as reality. (Of course sometimes hallucinations can look bizarre too. It just depends.) People always think that a hallucination looks different from reality, because many people have taken hallucinogenic drugs like LSD. What you see while taking a hallucinogenic drug is not the same as what you see when you are hallucinating. Hallucinations look completely real and it's not easy to know when the hallucination starts and stops - even if you know you must have had a hallucination.

Are you in a church where you can talk to other Christians about your experiences? It helps to get other people to keep you grounded in reality. If you are really having guidance from the Holy Spirit, then that is great.

Anyway, I'm glad you weren't insulted by my suggestion of psychosis. Maybe keep that possibility in mind just in case.

 

[Troy Rambo]

I think there is better term for psychotic meltdowns. That would be Spiritual Experience!

 

[cloudyday2]

I think there is better term for psychotic meltdowns. That would be Spiritual Experience!

Yep. It's hard to know if you are experiencing objective reality, getting visions from God, or hallucinating.

The reason I wondered about psychosis was that @doomsayer2 seemed to have a mixed opinion of God, Christianity, etc. That is sort of how I felt when I was a Christian due to psychosis. Most Christians think God is all positive. That is really my only reason for wondering about psychosis.

 

[lutherangerman]

Salvation is not about salvation from hell and being under God's wrath. That part has been taken care of in the Cross. It is the OSAS - Christ did this once and as a result we are all saved forever.

However there is a part of salvation that means something else. It is about dedicating your life to Jesus and pursuing holiness. This part of salvation is an ongoing process that can be interrupted and left and you must take up the task again so not to make your salvation vain.

 

[cloudyday2]

Salvation is not about salvation from hell and being under God's wrath. That part has been taken care of in the Cross. It is the OSAS - Christ did this once and as a result we are all saved forever.

However there is a part of salvation that means something else. It is about dedicating your life to Jesus and pursuing holiness. This part of salvation is an ongoing process that can be interrupted and left and you must take up the task again so not to make your salvation vain.

That sounds like a sensible approach.