another question

[dogs4thewin]

Why is it that people seem to think that Christ is what or who allows us to do good and that deeds are a result of believing? The reason I have a problem with this is that there are MANY a non-Christians who being VERY frank here behave better ( deeds and stuff) than people who claim to be Christian so how can you say that Christ help you do good works when you and I both know that non-Christians do LOTS of good work?

 

[Publius]

Why is it that people seem to think that Christ is what or who allows us to do good and that deeds are a result of believing?

Because men, apart from Christ are spiritually dead and are unable to do good on their own.

The reason I have a problem with this is that there are MANY a non-Christians who being VERY frank here behave better ( deeds and stuff) than people who claim to be Christian so how can you say that Christ help you do good works when you and I both know that non-Christians do LOTS of good work?

Yeah, we know that. It's one of the "common graces" the Bible talks about. The question isn't whether or not they do, but whether or not they're capable of doing so without Christ's common graces.

 

[dogs4thewin]

common graces?

 

[Elioenai26]

In order for us to better answer your questions, we have to have a better understanding of the use of the word "good" in your statements. What are you referring to when you refer to what is "good"?

 

[dogs4thewin]

helping people feeding the homeless donating money to causes and stuff.

 

[Harry3142]

Why is it that people seem to think that Christ is what or who allows us to do good and that deeds are a result of believing? The reason I have a problem with this is that there are MANY a non-Christians who being VERY frank here behave better ( deeds and stuff) than people who claim to be Christian so how can you say that Christ help you do good works when you and I both know that non-Christians do LOTS of good work?

There's an old saying: "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons." That saying applies to Christian belief and behavior. Not only are we to do what is right, but the motivations which cause us to perform those actions must also be right.

There's a passage of Scripture which identifies the motivations which culminate in the commission of sinful acts, and the motivations which culminate in the performance of righteous acts. Scripture tells us that no motivation listed as an act of the sinful nature is to be accepted as the origin of a righteous act, and no motivation listed as the fruit of the Spirit is to be accepted as the origin of a sinful act. Each set of motivations culminates in diametrically opposed actions:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Those who are nonchristians and perform acts which appear to be righteous are not to be judged by us as other than righteous. Only God can see into their hearts in order to know what the motivation for their actions was. But as Christians we believe that as a result of our accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as cleansing us of our sins, God sends his Spirit to rein in our sinful nature, and then implants in us the new nature (the fruit of the Spirit) which we need to have in order to say and do the words and actions which God wants of us.

 

[dogs4thewin]

There's an old saying: "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons." That saying applies to Christian belief and behavior. Not only are we to do what is right, but the motivations which cause us to perform those actions must also be right.

There's a passage of Scripture which identifies the motivations which culminate in the commission of sinful acts, and the motivations which culminate in the performance of righteous acts. Scripture tells us that no motivation listed as an act of the sinful nature is to be accepted as the origin of a righteous act, and no motivation listed as the fruit of the Spirit is to be accepted as the origin of a sinful act. Each set of motivations culminates in diametrically opposed actions:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Those who are nonchristians and perform acts which appear to be righteous are not to be judged by us as other than righteous. Only God can see into their hearts in order to know what the motivation for their actions was. But as Christians we believe that as a result of our accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as cleansing us of our sins, God sends his Spirit to rein in our sinful nature, and then implants in us the new nature (the fruit of the Spirit) which we need to have in order to say and do the words and actions which God wants of us.

Not to be rude but are you saying that Non-Christians always have bad motives?

 

[Emmy]

Dear AllorNothingatall4Christ. Yes, there are many people who are kind and do things for others, but, as Jesus told us already, they get their rewards from the people they do things for, or give them help. Christians however, love and help their neighbour, because that is was God wants from us, and we do it out of Love for God and our neighbour. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[food4thought]

Dear ALLorNOTHING;
There is a doctrinal concept of many Christians called Calvinism, and even those who do not consider themselves Calvinists may hold some views that come from that. One of those views is the concept of "Total Depravity", which teaches that man is unable to do anything good in God's eyes without the grace of God. I agree with this view to some extent, but fall short of completely agreeing with it... I agree that man is unable to do anything God would view as righteous (morally perfect) apart from the empowering of the Holy Spirit; but believe man is capable of doing good things (in human eyes) without a right relationship with God, and that these works are never able to earn a righteous standing with God. Because of that, good works will never gain you entrance into heaven... man can and does do good things, but because we are not perfect in God's eyes we are separated from Him relationally. I will try to help you understand why with the rest of this post... please bear with me because it will be a bit long, but I think it will shed light for you on why Christians believe that doing good does not mean we ARE GOOD. Also note that I am just one Christian, and not all Christians will agree with my understanding.


God is perfectly righteous (moral), just (giving the right verdict and penalty for every crime), holy (set apart, different from His creation, sacred), true (corresponding to reality as it exists in essence, word, and action), merciful (compassionate, willing to extend forgiveness and grace), and loving (giving of Himself in affection). God possesses all these attributes (and others) in perfect-- some even say infinite-- measure. In order to rightly understand God, we have to understand His character; and to understand His character, we must have some insight into how the above attributes interact with and balance each other.

I believe God’s justice is primarily related to His righteousness and His mercy—on the one hand, His righteousness demands moral perfection, and so every failure to be morally perfect requires justice to be meted out; on the other hand, His mercy requires Him to have compassion on the offender and extend forgiveness and grace. You can see how this places God in a difficult position, as His character demands two opposing actions. Yet we will see how God’s love provided the resolution.

Here is where we run into the concept of substitutionary atonement. Mankind had rebelled against God and was deserving of the righteous justice of God, which true penalty was given to Adam by God in Genesis 2:16: “…dying you shall die” (LITV). In the Hebrew here, the word translated “die” is written twice at the end of the sentence. The idea is accurately rendered by the LITV, as the penalty was both spiritual death (separation of their relationship to God) and physical death (separation of the soul from the body)… at the act of disobeying God’s command Adam and Eve experienced immediate spiritual death (as expressed by their hiding from God and God calling out “where are you?”), and eventually the penalty of physical death came to Adam and Eve. Adam’s very nature was changed by his sin, and he passed down this sin nature to every one of his descendants (please read Romans 5). Knowing that mankind was then destined to be forever separated from Him since no action of their own could eliminate the need for justice for their rebellion, God in His mercy enacted a way that He could satisfy justice AND mercy by providing for them a covering (Hebrew word rendered as “atonement” in the law of Moses) by the death of an innocent substitute (the unknown animal that died to provide the skin clothing God gave them at the end of Genesis 3). The animal was innocent in that it was not under judgment for any sin or rebellion of its own, and thus could temporarily satisfy the requirement of justice that death must result from the disobedience as well as the requirement of mercy that man be extended forgiveness and grace (unmerited favor).

All through the OT we see the idea of substitutionary atonement by the shedding of the innocent blood of an animal “without spot or blemish”… this was always meant to only be a picture of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ in the place of man, while at the same time instilling in the faithfull the necessity of the death of an innocent substitute in order to pay for their sins. Jesus, given to us out of God’s love (John 3:16, etc.), was the perfect fulfillment of God’s requirement for justice: 1) He was “innocent” of Adam’s sin and “without spot or blemish” because of His virgin birth and sinless life; thus making Him like Adam in that He was a “son of God” in the sense that His human nature was a direct creation of God (Genesis 1:26-27; 2:7), and thus replacing Adam as a representative of all mankind (Romans 5). Yet He was unlike Adam (and all of us) in that He did not commit sin nor did He inherit the sin nature from Adam. 2) His sacrifice was sufficient for all men because, being the eternal, infinite, uncreated “Son of God” in His Divine nature (John's gospel chapter 1), His death had infinite value in the sight of God and thus covered every conceivable sin that mankind has or will commit… except for rejecting that sacrifice on their behalf through unbelief and maintaining that to their death, or willful knowing rejection of God and worshipping Satan (the mark of the beast and judgment at the end of the Millennial Kingdom in the book of Revelation). 3) Jesus experienced both physical death AND, in some way we will never be able to fully comprehend this side of heaven (if ever), spiritual death as God poured out His justice against our sin upon Jesus.

In summary, we see how God’s character works out the redemption and salvation of mankind thru His mercy and love, yet still complies with His righteousness and justice. Even if the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ may not entirely coincide with our human ideas of justice, we must remember that God is holy… His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:6-11). Ultimately, it is by faith that we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior; and one aspect of that faith is accepting that God is the One Who establishes ultimate standards of right and wrong, good and evil, and justice and injustice. If only this awareness were more frequent among Christians as we walk in a fallen world.

God bless you; and I hope this was helpful to you in understanding why Christians believe that doing good is not good enough in God's eyes... I would also hope that this would help you come to faith in and understanding of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Mike

 

[hedrick]

common graces?

Perhaps common grace is part of the answer, although classically that term doesn't include anything that is part of salvation.

I'm sort of a Calvinist. Calvin believed in common grace, but he thought its role was to keep society decent, not to save people. After all, the elect would find it pretty inconvenient to live in a culture where the non-Christians had turned it all into a disaster area.

However I've gotten mellower in my old age. I accept the inclusivist viewpoint. This maintains that grace may be available to at least some non-Christians. One of the questions is whether Christ's work is objective or subjective. If it's objective, he actually changed things and set up possibilities. They're there whether you believe in them or not. I believe that Christ was actually the source of most of what is good in today's culture. I'm not sure how long this will last as Christianity becomes less influential. But at the moment I think many non-Christians do good because of an approach to life that is at least in part based on Christianity.

As an inclusivist I think people who are committed to doing right because it is right may well be responding to God, and that God may be working in them to save them. These are the people who after death will see God and be happily surprised to see that things are better than they thought they were. They will submit to him gladly. I very much fear that not everyone is like this.