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HisKid1973

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim
 

Michie

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim
I agree with your observations.

But you probably already knew that.

It's about Christ.

We all have our paths to follow.

Even the CCC acknowledges that their are Christians outside the RCC.

Some people may have doubts & may not have that knowledge deep down that the RCC is where they should be in a certain point in their journey.

Some do.

Those that do should not judge Christ servant according to their own standards.

Paul speaks of this.

I just read a book by Fr. Groeschel speaking on these matters & I was quite amazed at how much I found in common with him.

Quite franky, I do not think it wise to turn to the internet in spiritual dilemmas but to go to more authentic sources IRL.
 
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L3g3nd

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim

How do you mean, "you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue?" Are you referring to reconciliation? Who is leaving Christ out of the issue? What is this in reference to?
 
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Michie

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How do you mean, "you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue?" Are you referring to reconciliation? Who is leaving Christ out of the issue? What is this in reference to?
I think he is referring to those that threaten the doubtful believer in the RCC with mortal sin when they ponder possibly leaving the RCC instead of them encouraging them into prayer & seeking Christ.

More of an attitude of the RCC having a corner on salvation & the Church doing the saving instead of Christ.

Christ saves.

And not just within the walls of the RCC.

He can correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Look Homeward Anglican

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To go deeper in Christ is to embark on the Catholic journey. The shallow waters are filled with multitudes of young minows along the edge of the pond; some have a born-again experience and believe that from there it is sufficient to subsist only on the pabulum of holy scripture.
Jesus did not tell us that by following him, we might take one of those broad and self-directed ways. Rather, we are to take the narrow path -- that sure and straightest way to him, a way that is by his own description very difficult. He gave us hard sayings. He told us that he had come to put brother against father.
If your faith is on the easy and broad path (how easy is it to say "Lord! Lord!", to talk to Jesus only on your own and call him your buddy? How easy is it to just hang out with the Lord? To get "saved" by making a sinner's prayer? Sounds pretty easy to me. And the broad road alongside the straight and narrow path is crowded with people when you think about it) then you might consider stopping for directions before you are too turned around. We are told that the devil appears to many as an angel of light, and will deceive many. There are so many false doctrines out there in these days.
To go deeper in Christ is to stay Catholic. Stay in the Holy Church that Christ has commanded us to dwell in and to be part of. Mortal sin is not some negative coercion glue that binds people; if a person wants to leave the Church, he obviously doesn't believe that anyway, so how could that stop anyone?
So to answer your question -- no. I still would not go to another church, anymore than I would go to another Christ, or another gospel besides the one he taught. The true faith and true gospel are in the Catholic Church. "Lord, where would I go? You have the words of eternal life."
 
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AMDG

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But it isn't just mortal sin--although leaving Christ with full knowledge could certainly be called that. And it isn't a matter of non-Catholic churches being Christian or not. (They are.) However, it is leaving Christ. It's pridefully, slapping Christ in the face and saying "I don't need the Church You founded. I want to go my own way at this other place--whether it be a church or not. I know Your Real Prescence isn't there. I know that I won't have all the helps You intended for Your people. I especially know I can't receive You in the Eucharist, but what can I say--I like sleeping in, the fellowship, the youth programs, the sermons, the loose restrictions, not having someone tell me what to do, the idea of being "saved" whatever I do, that cute girl or guy, just reading the Bible and deciding what I think it says, or ...." Will Christ still love you if you do this? YES. Will He be sad that you chose not to take advantage of what He wants for you? Definitely yes. Of course, you have Free Will and maybe you need to wander around and learn a few things before being able to return to Him with all your heart and be cared for like He wanted you to be in the first place.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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But it isn't just mortal sin--although leaving Christ with full knowledge could certainly be called that. And it isn't a matter of non-Catholic churches being Christian or not. (They are.) However, it is leaving Christ. It's pridefully, slapping Christ in the face and saying "I don't need the Church You founded. I want to go my own way at this other place--whether it be a church or not. I know Your Real Prescence isn't there. I know that I won't have all the helps You intended for Your people. I especially know I can't receive You in the Eucharist, but what can I say--I like sleeping in, the fellowship, the youth programs, the sermons, the loose restrictions, not having someone tell me what to do, the idea of being "saved" whatever I do, that cute girl or guy, just reading the Bible and deciding what I think it says, or ...." Will Christ still love you if you do this? YES. Will He be sad that you chose not to take advantage of what He wants for you? Definitely yes. Of course, you have Free Will and maybe you need to wander around and learn a few things before being able to return to Him with all your heart and be cared for like He wanted you to be in the first place.
(Italics and Underlining are my emphasis) I had to wander myself, and realized that it was exactly for my own selfish reasons why, as for alot of AMGD said truly did apply to me, and I did wander, but I came back to Christ in his Holy Catholic Church. So, that's why, even if some of my catholic friends are now protestant turned to Protestantism for the reasons AMGD stated, I realize now, that like I, some need to wander and learn abit more, before coming back to the Catholic Church. So, the only thing I can do in the meantime is encourage and pray for them.
Dominus Vobiscum,
Matt
 
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Rhamiel

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I am confused by the OP, what do you mean Kim? are you saying the about the eorigen of the idea of origenal sin or are you mearly saying we should not bully people into staying in the Church with this doctrine?
Mortal Sin is something to consider, if leaving the Church will condeme you to hell then that is something to consider. I do not see this a bulying, but mearly God making the choice very simple for us, freedom in Him in His Church or hell to burn for ever and ever. easy choice:)
 
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RoseofLima

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I think oftentimes how an issue such as this is approached corresponds exactly with the maturity of the believer. One would be remiss to just allow someone to walk away from the fullness of the Truth (as that's what we firmly believe as Catholics- it's not just the indwelling of the Holy Spirit- but Jesus Himself uniting with us- Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) without compassionately telling them that we think they are not going astray. However-- above all (which I find is so oft forgotten) we are instructed to preach with reverence and love. It is the reverence for the other person which I find to most often be missing, particularly when someone is a recent convert or has newly emcountered Christ in a profound way.... and that is often what surfaces on these boards.
 
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Davidnic

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim

I think, I'd be Catholic no matter what. I don't even ever think of the mortal sin to leave thing. Partly because of full knowledge. Let's say someone is Catholic, but their priest is rude and mean, no one really points out the Eucharist, their parish and the other members create a bad atomsphere. And the thousands of other things that are not unique to any group. Are they given and accurate and full picture of the Church? Have they been taught all of what the Church believes?

So many variables. So I just take people one on one in Christ. I believe many Catholics go away from the Church without full knowledge only to be lead back later by Christ along a road that helps them understand their faith far better than if they had stayed. Christ works miracles, I can only love. And for that alone, I am pretty happy and blessed. So, mortal sin? Not my place to say. In what I just described, I'd say no if pressed. Because I don't see full knowledge.

If somone asks why I am Catholic, I answer. If someone is thinking about leaving the Church I try to see why. Often it comes down to:

1. Frustration with others that reflecton on the Church
...a. A Catholic Family member viewed as a good Catholic
...b. A priest who sins publicly
...c. A spouse
2. Frustration with a dogma that was improperly explained
3. disagreement with a Dogma due to modernist ideas
4. A personal crisis that deals with:
...a. Frustration with a family member
...b. Frustration with a priest or his manner
...c. An elitism encounted in a new parish
...d. Sorrow from a death
...e. Confusion and pain from an illness (theirs or a loved ones)
5. General improper education in the faith

I might have forgotten one or two, but that is generally a basic list (and thank my Nuns for the outline form). Now, what I try and do is:

1. Advise prayer, and focus on Christ
2. See a priest (another if the problem is with yours)
3. Try to advise some reading in Scripture or the works of the saints
4. Try to discern what God is telling you through all of the above
5. If it is a issue of improper understanding, I explain as best I can

But also, we are all joined in our love of Christ. A gift He has given us that is often overlooked is our humanity. So often looked down upon, it is our humanity that He sanctified by becoming human. True, without His grace it is not a thing of beauty. But alive in His Grace it shines.

and it is in that humanity that we all have some realtion to that first list. Most of us have been mad or disappointed in a priest or loved one who we expect to be holy. Or we've had trouble in getting used to a new parish. Or we've felt sorrow from a death or confusion and pain at a sickness.

Suffering, unites us. To each other. To the Cross.

One of the things when a brother or sister feels doubt and fear that we should first remember is that we have all...in some way felt doubt and fear. It is an exposed feeling.

We need to remember our own pain. Remember the pain of Christ. And by taking our brother or sister in our arms, remember that at that moment we bring them into the arms of Christ.

For a Catholic, that is in my opinon, the best way to explain what we feel and know about the Church and what she teaches us.

Short form of that...using some empathy at times would help bunches in many situations in our lives. :)
 
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SolomonVII

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim


This is something that is distasteful about more than a few Christians, in general, and not just Catholics. You see such argument being used against athiests too, with the implication that hellfire awaits their decision.
As long as one keeps one heart open to what is true, and good and worthy, then the Holy Spirit will lead us to all that we need to know.

Freedom in Christ is a true freedom. There is never coersion in Christ. It includes the freedom to follow your conscience wherever it leads you to.

I suppose for myself, it would never really be about leaving the Catholic Church. It would be about taking my own ideas of Catholicism with me, wherever I might find myself. My Catholic ideas are a part of me. So it would be about celebrating Christ with those that I am the closest relationship with, whether are not they are in full communion with the pope in Rome.

Somethings are the fault of history, and will probably not be corrected even if I lived to see my granchildren turn into grandparents.

But insofar as God is One, there is never any schism in Christ. Where two or three gather in His Name, there Christ is.
 
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Michie

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This is something that is distasteful about more than a few Christians, in general, and not just Catholics. You see such argument being used against athiests too, with the implication that hellfire awaits their decision.
As long as one keeps one heart open to what is true, and good and worthy, then the Holy Spirit will lead us to all that we need to know.
*snip*

Good point.

I know my conversion into the RCC had some of my protestant Christian friends questioning my salvation. This by once saved always saved type of folks. To rectify that it was thought that it was possible I was never truly saved to begin with.

Sword cuts both ways.
 
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anawim

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If you didn't have the doctrine of a mortal sin if you changed churches(akin to walking away from Christ it seems). Would you go somewhere else? Do you have really committed friends who really live their lives for Christ? Do they really set a good example for you> Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.. The reason I ask is that I noticed others struggling and rather than encourage them to got deeper in Christ, you just go at the mortal sin and leaving Christ issue..To me that lays guilt and condemnation rather than freedom in Christ..Thank you for your comments..Christ in all things..Kim

What would be the difference between the "all roads lead to heaven" kind of thinking (otherwise known as the heresy of universalism), and "it doesn't matter what church you go to as long as you are Christian"?
 
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HisKid1973

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The crux here is "Church" as I see it as the collection of lively stones built on the foundation of the apostles, with Christ as the cornerstone..from evey tongue , tribe and nation..Christianity as defined as all true believers as a whole is a city of light set on a hill..Those lights scattered over the world..Even China where the light is forced underground still has converts daily added to His Church..Just the same a s Peter's street preaching gathered 3,000 in one day added to the church, just like a Billy Graham crusade.
As for the "universal", we, like you believe Jesus Christ is the "only" way ,truth and life. To me universalism is islam, buddah ect. lead to heaven..pax..kim
 
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anawim

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The way I look at it, if one is true, they are both true. If one is false, they are both false.

The underlying question is, where to draw the line? Would Momonism be included? Oneness Pentacostals? To me, the truth is just as important as a loving relationship with Christ.
 
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HisKid1973

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The way I look at it, if one is true, they are both true. If one is false, they are both false.

The underlying question is, where to draw the line? Would Momonism be included? Oneness Pentacostals? To me, the truth is just as important as a loving relationship with Christ.

The issue here is the question: Who do you say Jesus is...
 
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AMDG

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The issue here is the question: Who do you say Jesus is...

Then the issue becomes "who founded your Church and promised to protect it while seeing to it that His lambs and sheep have the very best care (err--the Sacraments that He founded as well)".
 
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HisKid1973

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Jesus 33 AD.He is the Rock..The cornerstone. and with the rest of the apostles(plural) form the foundation on which the lively stones are placed..The heavenly Jerusalem has the foundation of all the apostles..Se this is my issue.I don't see anyplace in scripture where on apostle called the shots,they worked as a team with everyone accountable to each other..That is whole reason they had councils. You say he singled Peter out and I see that because of the same three reasons that he denied Christ...This is why if I felt God leading to chose one it would be orthodox for that very reason..
 
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marciadietrich

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I don't have to leave Catholicism to be considered in a constant state of mortal sin, just missing one Sunday or a plethora of other topics can cause that to happen if you take the strict road on interpreting Catholic beliefs. And in the liberal thinking it seems almost that only Catholics could possibly fulfill the requirements for mortal sin in terms of knowledge or understanding that it is a sin.

Still, if I want to find a real connection to the church founded by Christ circa 33 A.D. IMO there are only two real options, Catholic or Orthodox ... or Catholic AND Orthodox.

Marcia
 
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anawim

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The issue here is the question: Who do you say Jesus is...

Jesus and the Catholic Church are one. Those who are saved belong to her, whether or not they acknowledge her existance, and realize that they are a member of her.
 
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