Annhilationism or Eternal Torment?

[Poor Beggar]

I thought I'd start a new thread if that's okay. One of our brothers has introduced the concept of annhilationism on another thread and I don't want to hijack that thread. I was thinking maybe we could discuss this as a community. Is eternal Torment something we've been eisegetically reading into the text, or exegetically drawing from it?

 

[Short Timer]

I thought I'd start a new thread if that's okay. One of our brothers has introduced the concept of annhilationism on another thread and I don't want to hijack that thread. I was thinking maybe we could discuss this as a community. Is eternal Torment something we've been eisegetically reading into the text, or exegetically drawing from it?

That "Breath of God" that became your "living soul" will live as long as God lives.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Poor Beggar]

That "Breath of God" that became your "living soul" will live as long as God lives.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Agreed.

 

[twin1954]

Eternal punishment is clearly Scriptural as evidenced by the many passages given by Avid in the other thread. Moreover it is eternal because sin is such an affront to God punishment can never satisfy righteousness and justice if it ends. The claim of punishment ending elevates the mercy and love of God above all His other attributes. While God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and He delights in mercy He must still uphold justice and truth or cease to be who He is. Even the eternality of punishment can never satisfy the justice that demands punishment because of the heinousness of sin against the Holy God.

 

[Poor Beggar]

This was my stated response:

First, I think it's important to recognize we have ABSOLUTELY NO understanding of how horrific sin is. When Isaiah went before the throne of God, he saw the truth of the sin in himself, not by looking at himself, but by looking upon a holy God. We simply cannot grasp the severity of sin and so we assume that burning in Hell for eternity is unjust. But if we don't have a real scope of the problem, how can we have a real scope of the solution? If the problem is this severe and we are as polluted as I'm claiming, we should see a solution presented that doesn't rely on us for our salvation. Isn't that what we see in Jesus?

Make sense?

So if sin could be as deadly and horrific as the bible presents it, so horrible that God is willing to sacrifice His only begotten Son, then we can search the scriptures open-mindedly without having an axe to grind and a claim to support. We can read them as they are presented to us.

Here is what I find:

Matt. 25:46 tells us that the eternal hell described in Matt. 18:8 is an eternal punishment. It isn't that the fire burns for ever and we are simply burned up and gone, but we are continually punished. That is what is being described in Matt. 25:46.
Rev. 14:11 again tells us their torment is forever. If they are annihilated (all traces of them have ceased to exist), they wouldn't be able to experience torment forever.
Rev. 20:10 shows that a just God is willing to burn Satan and his angels forever and ever. Satan and the fallen angels are part of God's creation, so here we see a just God willing to torment His creation forever due to the horrific nature of evil.
1 Cor. 15:53 tells us that ALL men's bodies become immortal at the resurrection. So evil men will be able to be burned justly for their sinful state forever and ever, just as the bush burned without being consumed in Ex. 3:2.

But God's love is so magnificent, His mercies so mind-blowing, that He has prepared a Way out of this without any effort on our part.

In John 5:24 we are told that those who belief in Jesus have passed from death into eternal life. This life is as eternal as the torment would have been.

 

[Chicken Little]

I suspect in the first resurrection for some might be annihilation and the worst of the worst Eternal Torment.

the second resurrection will have the same, some eternally destruction and some eternal torment.
that is why it says we are to be judged or in the great throne of "Judgement". it appears there might be a third option maybe a few of the dead might after judgement be given the right to " as though by fire " kind of Idea.


Mar 12:26

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bushGod spake unto him, saying, I am the God ofAbraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luk 20:37

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord theGod of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Mat 22:28

Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

so the dead ( those not in christ because in Christ we never die ) will to be like the angels , so I guess it infers that if any dead who are not alive in him are to be saved ( because maybe they opted for the "as though by fire" option ) if any are saved of the resurrected DEAD , they will be like the angels .

 

[Avid]

Eternal punishment is clearly Scriptural as evidenced by the many passages ...

A good source of understanding for this is found in Thomas Boston's book, in the 4th and last chapter:

Human Nature in its Fourfold State
IV. The ETERNAL State​

http://www.achristianspirit.com/HumanNtr4.html#Chap4

It is useful to all of us to see these things from the viewpoint of scripture. In this chapter, Thomas Boston writes about the ETERNAL STATE of the human person. The people God will save have received a free gift, and those who refuse and rebel, have received judgment and their punishment in the Lake of Fire has begun. In all these cases, people have begun to enjoy or suffer their eternal state before God.

That "Breath of God" that became your "living soul" will live as long as God lives...

Thank you!

God will give each person a body that is not subject to corruption, nor to "incineration," and our eternal state does not change once it has begun!
.

 

[Chicken Little]

1Jo 3:1

¶
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


if we do not know what we will be because it has not been made clear according to this scripture !
maybe we don't know what they will be either.
only just hints to what sins is and what it will be is just too awful to even be imagined.
just as the glory we can be in him is just as unimaginable to our tiny minds..

 

[Avid]

... I guess it infers that if any dead who are not alive in him are to be saved (because maybe they opted for the "as though by fire" option) if any are saved of the resurrected DEAD , they will be like the angels .

The passage you mention is intended to show that there may be people who are saved (received Christ in this life) who have received it as they we dying or being martyred. No one who enters the next life (eternity, the afterlife, etc.,) not having received the free gift of God (eternal life in Jesus Christ - Messiah) will have such an opportunity to choose anything. They are kept in Hell till the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ​

In the description of this Judgment given by the Apostle John, we do not see these people given any opportunity to change their mind, so to speak. Everyone has this life as the time for them to receive the free gift of God.

Hebrews 4
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. ​

There is no other time or place for this. Once we have passed from this life, our fate is sealed, one way or the other.

 

[Avid]

... what it will be is just too awful to even be imagined.
just as the glory we can be in him is just as unimaginable to our tiny minds..

Man trudging through this life, the embodiment of the fallen human nature as it is inherited from Adam the First, has no idea, and no interest, concerning the glories of the next life, nor the horrors it holds for him if he does not turn to God in Christ.

I Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. ​

We see that, what is hidden from the natural man, is revealed to the regenerated person. God has given the people He saves a new heart, and a new nature, and they are able to receieve more than just the Free Gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. The Saved person has the mind of Christ (I Corinthians 2:16) and is led of God through His Holy Spirit that indwells the believer.

 

[Chicken Little]

well I know what you are saying but Enoch states things quite differently and if I have to choose about things that obviously have not been made clear to us , but seem to be clearer to Enoch . I go with Enoch who states that one of the things about the time of trials importance is to bring men to repentance. I mean the prophets of old and the apostles will all have a captive audience for the first time ever and the gospel will be preached to all some for the first time ever . and the people will see things during that time that no one can believe now with our tiny little minds. He promises all who call on his name will be saved.. there is just a lot and lots we just don't know and what I do know is he is NOT going to save anyone who does want to be saved.

For them that refuse there is some kind of judgement with weights and measures and many witnesses and books opened to do justice justly. what happens after that , I just really don't want to know !! and I am sure I don't have to know anything more than the little he has told us. at least for now. but if we can't image the glory how can we imagine the lack of gloriousness of the rebellious in their place of rebellion ?

 

[Avid]

... it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is...

...if we do not know what we will be...

There is a difference in something not appearing, and we not knowing it! These are the kinds of things that come from sermons and teachings of MAN, and not from the scriptures. There are people who think that the Lake of Fire will burn them up (incinerate them) because they only perceive things from the aspect and perspective they receive from the mundane things of this life. Once the eyes are opened, and the heart is opened, the person can then begin to see things as taught by the Holy Spirit of God.

Seek the LORD with all your heart, and He will show you these things.

 

[Goodbook]

Only Jesus can rescue people out of hell. If someone is repentent, they can make it to heaven. But there will come a time when its too late to do that.

 

[Goodbook]

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

 

[Chicken Little]

guys really there is just so much we don't know .. I won't even bring the book of Enoch into this which by the way I trust the most being he was pre flood and eyewitness to things we will not understand. .

just from the word we can read now.
there is so many hell like times or places.. Gehenna and Sheol and more
hell is parts of
1. and the hearts and minds of men/mankind now
2. and the outside "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" as opposed to inside his kingdom.. a place where they will be "visited after many days"
3 then there is the pit that he throws hell/ hades and death and all things lawless and eternal into IT , at the great white throne ..
and states words like "I will surely cover you " and "make you his foot stool" . and many many more things about that place I just call the trash pit but it is probably his footstool. we talk about all these concepts and more as if they are all one thing . BUT about all these concept that our tiny brains smooch up into one concept they call HELL. we do the same exact thing to the word "heaven" ! why ? because our brains can't handle all the information needed to understand all these things separately YET , NOT YET . there is not enough words to understand them or time to learn about the laws of them. and until we know the laws of them we won't understand them.
so we trust him or we don't! what is for sure no one is smart enough to figure it all out with the info we have now.
we only have enough basic info to believe him or not.
if he is going to Annihilate everyone why spent 3 1/2 years doing it ? why the 1000 years then yet another judgement ? WE DON"T KNOW YET! we don't even know what we will be like. he didn't tell us because we wouldn't understand it anyway.
the spiritdead peanut gallery (unsaved militant lawless) around here really won't either but it doesn't stop them from asking the stupidest question than can't be answered until we are there. we do greatly err we do not understand the power of God or his plans. and they certainly won't.

 

[Poor Beggar]

God showed me

I can't buy into private revelation that isn't supported by scripture, Goodbook, unless you can show how it is.

Once they burned up, they gone never to be resurrected.

How do you handle these:
Matt. 25:46 tells us that the eternal hell described in Matt. 18:8 is an eternal punishment. It isn't that the fire burns for ever and we are simply burned up and gone, but we are continually punished. That is what is being described in Matt. 25:46.
Rev. 14:11 again tells us their torment is forever. If they are annihilated (all traces of them have ceased to exist), they wouldn't be able to experience torment forever.
Rev. 20:10 shows that a just God is willing to burn Satan and his angels forever and ever. Satan and the fallen angels are part of God's creation, so here we see a just God willing to torment His creation forever due to the horrific nature of evil.
1 Cor. 15:53 tells us that ALL men's bodies become immortal at the resurrection. So evil men will be able to be burned justly for their sinful state forever and ever, just as the bush burned without being consumed in Ex. 3:2.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

That's a common phrase not supported by plain reading of scripture.

 

[Poor Beggar]

guys really there is just so much we don't know

But there is also what we DO know from scripture.

I won't even bring the book of Enoch into this

That's good as God didn't include it in the canon.

there is so many hell like times or places..

When we consider something "hellish" we do so because we have a culturalized sense of hell derived from the biblical standard.

 

[gpldisciple]

I think the suffering is eternal, the worst of it being eternal separation from God.

 

[Avid]

I think the suffering is eternal, the worst of it being eternal separation from God.

People in general do not seem to know that every good thing, even the ability to breathe God's air, come from God, and separation from Him means separation from anything and everything nice or good, everything we like, everything we need or desire, comes from God. If you like the rest of sleep, that is something you will not have in the eternal state, if God sends you to eternal punishment.

Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

This is not purely unique to the people who take the mark of the Beast, but it is a certain punishment for them, regardless of what else happens. All the repenting and pleading will do them no good after it is already too late.

 

[gpldisciple]

Just the thought of it is horrible.