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Anglo-Catholic?

Discussion in 'Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican & Old Catholic' started by LewsTherin, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Mary of Bethany

    Mary of Bethany Only one thing is needful.

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    I would have to say that not all of those things listed are believed in my husband's ACC parish. I realize that parish may be unique because of the influence of Orthodoxy on their late, founding priest. Of the things listed, I know they don't accept transubstantiation as "the" definition of the Eucharistic offering. The liturgy from the Anglican missal also has some places (the anaphora is one) that differ from the RC mass. [I'll look at this when I get home - these are just some things I seem to remember.] They definitely are not Papal. They probably do, on the whole, accept the Assumption (or at least the Dormition), and perhaps the Immaculate Conception.

    Interesting discussion. :)

    Mary
     
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  2. ebia

    ebia Senior Contributor

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    And? Movements change.
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Senior Contributor

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    And I'm glad you offered this information about the ACC as you have known it. I must say that I've been impressed at the ACC's stability. It was hard for everyone to start up when we all did, but the ACC has carried on pretty well. The parishes it had in the beginning by and large are still there and many now own their own property. People often talk about Continuers switching jurisdictions, being so divided, and all that, but lately it's the Anglican Realignment folks--ACNA, AMiA, etc.--who are trying to settle down while the Continuers may have found their stride. Abp. Haverland is well-regarded throughout the movement, from all that I've heard, and that's encouraging in itself.The ACC even picked up the parishes in Canada that didn't go to Rome, which you probably know.
     
  4. Mary of Bethany

    Mary of Bethany Only one thing is needful.

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    I think it's interesting that the ACC is now in communion with UECNA, but not with the TAC because of the TAC's Roman leanings. I find that interesting because I believe the UECNA has a more reformed/calvinist theology than the ACC. Maybe you know more about that?

     
  5. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Well, I wouldn't assert all of those things, or really any of them in a Roman formulation, and I guess I am an Anglo-Catholic. I'd consider those to be Anglo-papist views, really.

    In fact as far as the OPs question, I would say that I am pretty much theologically identical to most Orthodox Christians including my understanding of liturgy. I even tend to think that it might be a good idea for Anglicans to look at rapprochement to the Orthodox Church as an institution, as I think our disassociation from them is largely a historical accident.

    So maybe I am really Anglo-Orthodox?
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Senior Contributor

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    I think that shows how the term "Anglo-Catholic" has evolved...that we have to have another term now to distinguish the most common kind of Anglo-Catholic from a more extreme varity. When I was younger, it was argued by writers of books and articles on the subject that, although Anglo-Catholics favor the Catholic tradition, etc. they drew the line at the items I mentioned. Now both you and I wouldn't be quick to say that. And a century earlier it was not expected that self-described Anglo-Catholics even be High Churchmen!

    But you know. That would-be rapprochement is always "scotched" by the Orthodox side's insistence that Anglicans become "real" Orthodox Christians in style and practice, not just in belief.
     
  7. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Well, I would say the term is perhaps broader than it once was. But I think the sort of Oxford movement approach still exists. It's probably the most common one in my diocese for traditionalists.


    I don't see how this is so, given that it is possible to use what is pretty much a BCP liturgy in a Western style. It's significantly closer to what is done in an traditional BCP service than you see in most Anglican parishes that use the post-modern liturgies, and they see why that is important unlike modern Anglicanism. I'd even say that it has a much more "Anglican" understanding of liturgics than many modern Anglicans do, which may be why some have been willing to switch to use of an intact Eastern liturgy rather than use a post-modern Western one. Often they have western style icons, as well as vestments and fasting practices and offices. Are you meaning something different than that?
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Senior Contributor

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    I'm very much surprised to hear that. Maybe geography matters more than i thought.


    I think I must be, considering that almost none of that seemed to be related to what I wrote. I even checked twice to see if I was mistaking which point you were responding to. I meant that every time Anglicans consider joining with Orthodoxy, it seems that the Orthodox consider them to be just routine Protestants and Westerners, except that they have the obvious--an interest in Orthodoxy that few other Westerners or Protestants do.

    Then if some agreement is effected, such as with the Antiochian jurisdiction, within a few years the converts get the word that using the amended BCP and other leftovers from their Anglican past (which the former Anglicans thought were to be retained as part of the union deal) is not a good idea any longer, that they should be getting weaned from such things by now and that the transitional period is over. So any Anglican who's aware of this mindset knows that there is no "coming together" but really just a corporate take-over.
     
  9. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    I'd suspect it has to do with the historical issues in the area. We don't have much here in terms of a conservative evangelical Anglican movement, and the low church people have not tended to retain traditional understandings of Anglicanism. I'm not sure why. But there is a strong connection to the Oxford movement through the Anglican university, and most of the "Anglo-Catholic" clergy are related in some way to the university. I assume there are similar dynamics that have played out in other places.


    I don't think this is really the universal experience. Some Orthodox think that way, but many don't. There are parishes and even monasteries that are Western rite and there is no indication officially they are supposed to change.
     
  10. mark46

    mark46 Active Member

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    Younger Orthodox in North America generally accept the idea of having two liturgies available in the West. We've discussed this on TAW. Orthodoxy in the US has other issues to deal with at the moment. However, in the next generation or two, there may be a generally accepted and available Western Rite within Orthodoxy. I would note that both the Russians (ROCOR) and the Antiochians have such rites today. I agree with Albion that the acceptance is far from universal.

     
  11. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Senior Member

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    Albion,

    We exist and are posting here. So, you have met some. :D

    I am an Anglo Catholic. I do not believe in Purgatory or the Immaculate Conception, or the authority of the Pope. If I believed the Pope holds the authority and infallibility he claims, I would enter into Communion with Rome. So, I don't know how one can believe in the "Papacy" and remain outside Rome. That makes not sense.

    As for Transubstantiation, I have no particular objection to it. However, I do not attempt to define the Divine Mystery of the Holy Eucharist. I yield to the Mystery.

    I do believe in the Assumption.

    Our Parish does not use the "Roman Catholic Liturgy." We use the 1979 BCP.

    Anna
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Senior Contributor

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    That would be my opinion, so you can imagine my frustration every time I find myself in a discussion with one of those folks I described. The recent experience of the "Anglican Ordinariate" caused a lot of them to own up to the beliefs they already held.
     
  13. PaladinValer

    PaladinValer Orthodox Catholic in the English Style Supporter CF Ambassador

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    I would argue that Anglo-Catholicism is the position within Anglicanism that emphasizes the Catholicacy of the Church. There are many flavors of Anglo-Catholicism.

    I personally have the pious belief that the East is correct in terms of St. Mary the Theotokos' Dormition as well as original sin (which they do believe; just not St. Augustine's theology of it), yet I call myself Anglo-Catholic.

    When have you ever heard me promote any of those? And how often have I rejected such theology as dogmas that were outside Ecumenical grounds? Surely, you've known me through here for quite some time...
     
  14. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Senior Member

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    Albion,
    I think that is somewhat presumptuous. Perhaps some were already considering Catholicism. Perhaps some ran to the Catholic Church seeing it as a refuge from all the tortuous conflict within Anglicanism. We can speculate; but I don't really think we can judge the heart or intentions of those who entered into Communion with Rome.

    As I said before, if I believed the Pope holds the authority and infallibility he claims, I would enter into Communion with Rome.

    In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that one who knows the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ and refuses to enter cannot be saved.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
    _______________________

    So, I don't really think you can accuse those who entered the Ordinariate of finally "owning up to the beliefs they already held"---since "knowing" the Catholic Church to be the one true Church and remaining outside it would, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, result in the loss of salvation.

    Anna
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  15. Izdaari

    Izdaari Episcopalutheran (TEC/ELCA)

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    Just so. If I believed that, I would have no other choice but to join with Rome. But I'm not even close to believing it.
     
  16. Rurik

    Rurik New Member

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    It is an interesting thought, that if you did hold the view of Papal infalibility then any other personal dogma would be esialy overcome with one word from one person.
     
  17. Anna Scott

    Anna Scott Senior Member

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    Izdaari,
    And neither am I.

    I've given Catholicism serious consideration over the last 3 years; but the claim that the Pope holds authority over all of Christendom, and infallibility (Ex Cathedra teachings) isn't supported with sufficient evidence through history or Tradition.

    I think the mistake that people make in "judging" Anglo Catholics (and it is usually fellow Anglicans doing the judging) is that since our beliefs lean more towards the Catholic roots of Anglicanism; we are "Catholic wannabes." In reality, we are no more "Catholic wannabes" than the Eastern Orthodox, who also hold much in common with Rome.

    IOW, no matter how many beliefs you hold in common with Rome; if you don't believe in Papal authority/infallibility, you are not a "Catholic wannabe." If you do believe in Papal authority/infallibility, the "wannabe" conclusion will lead you to enter into Communion with Rome. It's really very simple.

    Anna
     
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  18. DariusArcturus

    DariusArcturus Newbie

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    As someone who identifies as Anglo-Catholic myself, I find my focus of such identification is more upon high-church Liturgy and traditions ('79 BCP Rite One Eucharist, "folksy" traditions, Saint feasts and fasts and the likes, etc.).

    Often times I'll mention such things like we're observing St. Martin's Lent, or it's Lammas -- or, true story, I'll find someone wandering around the supermarket trying to identify the grain used on St. Lucia's day from a sample their relative sent them, and I'm able to point them in the direction of the wheatberries -- and I tend to get confused looks from fellow Anglicans. :)

    I, also, don't believe in Papal infallibility simply because I feel that the history and decisions of the office are a testament against such claims. Transubstantiation? Meh, the Real Presence I feel is a more elegant solution, and when it comes to Purgatory, the Assumption and Immaculate Conception, I find they are unessential and could probably be covered by the same "philosophy" as the Real Presence.

    Anglo-Catholic is more of a spectrum, I suppose, and means different things to different people. I'm not "Wannabe Catholic" I'm an Anglican who appreciates our Catholic heritage as it is informed by the spirit Anglicanism.
     
  19. Izdaari

    Izdaari Episcopalutheran (TEC/ELCA)

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    Amen to that! :amen:
     
  20. Izdaari

    Izdaari Episcopalutheran (TEC/ELCA)

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    In that event, I would have still have some substantive disagreements with Rome. But I would feel compelled to have them from inside their tent, rather than from outside. Rather like Garry Wills, one of my favorite Christian writers.