Ancient Christian Writers wrote of pre-wrath removal of the righteous

[SummaScriptura]

The following quote is from a 3rd century document known today as the Apocalypse of Elijah. In chapter 5, we read,

"2 On that day the Christ will pity those who are his own. And he will send from heaven his sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. 3 The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. 4 Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal, both the small and the great, will be taken up upon their wings and lifted up before his wrath.

"Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments … and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them.

"7 And on that day the earth will be disturbed, and the sun will darken, and peace will be removed from the earth. The waters of the sea will dry up. 10 The sinners will groan upon the earth saying, “What have you done to us, O son of lawlessness, saying I am the Christ, when you are the devil?" etc.

 

[SummaScriptura]

On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World
A Sermon by Ephraem the Syrian
Ca. A.D. 306–373

Translation by Cameron Rhoades
Instructor of Latin
Tyndale Theological Seminary
Ft. Worth, Texas

Section 2

<snip>For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.</snip>

 

[Cappadocious]

Lol.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Lol.

Yes, it is funny. Its pretty hilarious how people in communions which claim to be from apostolic times often seem so sure they know what all Christians always believed about the sequence of things to come.

Even in N.T. times there seems to have been a shift from expecting Christ's imminent return (Peter & Paul's earlier epistles), toward expecting His coming to be delayed (Peter & Paul's last epistles).

When it comes to the history of ideas, there is really nothing new under the sun--- Long before the modern era, there were people speculating about a catching away of the saints before the advent of the wrath of God.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And Enoch, who wrote the doctrines of the last things before he was transformed to glory to reign with the angels, wrote of the rapture of the saints before the tribulation that is to come, and of it not being a secret rapture, but a seen rapture, and those who are left who see it and repent will be "Saved in His name, but not get the Glory".
Enoch chapter 50.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

The following quote is from a 3rd century document known today as the Apocalypse of Elijah. In chapter 5, we read,

"2 On that day the Christ will pity those who are his own. And he will send from heaven his sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. 3 The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. 4 Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal, both the small and the great, will be taken up upon their wings and lifted up before his wrath.

"Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments … and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them.

"7 And on that day the earth will be disturbed, and the sun will darken, and peace will be removed from the earth. The waters of the sea will dry up. 10 The sinners will groan upon the earth saying, “What have you done to us, O son of lawlessness, saying I am the Christ, when you are the devil?" etc.

So Gnostic texts are now reliable Christian doctrinal sources?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The passage in the bible that people use to speak of a rapture or "snatching away" speaks of the resurrection. There is a mention of people being taken away in the gospel of Matthew but implies those being taken away are wicked i.e. compared to those who were taken away in the time of Noah .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The rapture's replacement of the resurrection in the common church message seems to be related to the thing Paul said about the resurrection and what the teachings say about suffering. It just may indicate that today's christians aren't real ones like in the first century, and are making up new stories because they've grown soft .. that might just be it .. but only time will tell.

 

[Standing Up]

From Irenaeus who indicates a gathering:

4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxix.html

 

[Standing Up]

Irenaeus, who was taught by Polycarp who was taught by apostles, more clearly:

Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;”46984698 Isa. xl. 15. so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”46994699 Matt. xxiv. 21. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxx.html

 

[ViaCrucis]

The following quote is from a 3rd century document known today as the Apocalypse of Elijah. In chapter 5, we read,

"2 On that day the Christ will pity those who are his own. And he will send from heaven his sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. 3 The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. 4 Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal, both the small and the great, will be taken up upon their wings and lifted up before his wrath.

"Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments … and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them.

"7 And on that day the earth will be disturbed, and the sun will darken, and peace will be removed from the earth. The waters of the sea will dry up. 10 The sinners will groan upon the earth saying, “What have you done to us, O son of lawlessness, saying I am the Christ, when you are the devil?" etc.

For what it's worth, there isn't a single version of the Apocalypse of Elijah, the text exists in a couple forms, a Jewish form and a Christian form (the Jewish form would be the older, with the Christian form having been modified for Christian use).

This isn't what we would call "Pre-Wrath", instead this describes a preservation of the righteous on the Day of Judgment. What is described is future Judgment, the righteous being spared the Judgment that befalls the wicked. What today is called "Pre-Wrath" is a form of Rapturism, specifically a form of what is known as Mid-Tribulationism. That isn't what the text is saying, however.

As such this isn't a particularly useful piece of ancient literature to try build such a case upon.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World
A Sermon by Ephraem the Syrian
Ca. A.D. 306–373

Translation by Cameron Rhoades
Instructor of Latin
Tyndale Theological Seminary
Ft. Worth, Texas

Section 2

<snip>For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.</snip>

Very misleading. This was not written by St. Ephraem. It is instead a Late Latin form of an earlier medieval apocalypse known as the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem. The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem, written in Syriac, is quite different--but as one may guess from the the name of the text it wasn't actually written by St. Ephraem, that's because it post-dates St. Ephraem by at least 400 years. This particular Latin form, from when I attempted to look into it when I saw it propped up in the Eschatology board comes from a German 19th century work by C.P. Caspari, Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten. Beyond which I was unable to trace any more information.

Though given that it seems to rely upon the 7th century Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius we can pretty safely say that the Latin version is no more an authentic work by St. Ephraem anymore than the Syriac version.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Irenaeus, who was taught by Polycarp who was taught by apostles, more clearly:

Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;”46984698 Isa. xl. 15. so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”46994699 Matt. xxiv. 21. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxx.html

My recommendation is that you read the entire passage from St. Irenaeus in which he makes it quite clear that, from his position, the Church shall endure tribulation. Which means that using this as a Dispensationalist pre-tribulationist proof-text isn't going to get anyone very far. Though that hasn't stopped Dispensationalist websites quoting this, as well as the Cameron Rhoades translation of the Latin Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem (not always with the disclaimer that it is Pseudo-Ephraem not St. Ephraem the Syrian). Because the goal is to attempt giving the appearance of ancient authority to 19th century theological innovation, not be a reliable conveyer of historical fact.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Standing Up]

My recommendation is that you read the entire passage from St. Irenaeus in which he makes it quite clear that, from his position, the Church shall endure tribulation. Which means that using this as a Dispensationalist pre-tribulationist proof-text isn't going to get anyone very far. Though that hasn't stopped Dispensationalist websites quoting this, as well as the Cameron Rhoades translation of the Latin Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem (not always with the disclaimer that it is Pseudo-Ephraem not St. Ephraem the Syrian). Because the goal is to attempt giving the appearance of ancient authority to 19th century theological innovation, not be a reliable conveyer of historical fact.

-CryptoLutheran

Hmmm, perhaps so. Irenaeus looks like he thinks the church goes through great tribulation and afterwards is caught up. Is that how you read it?

Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;”46984698 Isa. xl. 15. so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”46994699 Matt. xxiv. 21. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxx.html

 

[ViaCrucis]

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.", etc. It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. For that the kingdom must be divided, and thus come to ruin, the Lord [declares when He] says: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." " - Book V.26.1

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;" - Book V.35.1

I believe we can safely say that Irenaeus believes the Church shall go through future trial and tribulation during the reign of Antichrist, believing that the Church shall not be subject to the Judgment poured out upon the earth. Not as though the Church has been "raptured" away, but that the Church shall not be subject to that Judgment, but after the destruction that befalls the kingdoms of Antichrist the dead shall be raised as was promised. If one were to categorize Irenaeus' thought in terms of modern Rapturism the closest we'd get is post-tribulationism. The problem remains, however, that it is entirely errant and anachronistic to read Rapturism back to antiquity and try and make ancient Christian writers fit into the contemporary Rapturist mold--they won't fit because such ideas didn't exist back then.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

Are New Testament Bible writers accepted - or to be rejected - as "ancient Christian writers"?? If they are accepted that it would be "instructive" to find what the Bible writers say about this subject.\

The following quote is from a 3rd century document known today as the Apocalypse of Elijah. In chapter 5, we read,

Third century... not Elijah so then a fake at the start. But the claim is that it is in the 200's well I suggest we read someone from the 40's to 90's as an even "earlier" and less fake author.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Are New Testament Bible writers accepted - or to be rejected - as "ancient Christian writers"?? If they are accepted that it would be "instructive" to find what the Bible writers say about this subject.
Third century... not Elijah so then a fake at the start. But the claim is that it is in the 200's well I suggest we read someone from the 40's to 90's as an even "earlier" and less fake author.

many on this thread are stumbling on the authenticity of the names attached to certain ancient docs. It is sufficient that they are ancient to point out the idea of pre-trib catching away pre-dates the modern era. That's all.

No. I don't think Elijah wrote the book which has his name attached.

Pseude-epi-pigraphon = a scroll with the incorrect name written on the outside of the first sheet

 

[BobRyan]

many on this thread are stumbling on the authenticity of the names attached to certain ancient docs. It is sufficient that they are ancient to point out the idea of pre-trib catching away pre-dates the modern era. That's all.

No. I don't think Elijah wrote the book which has his name attached.

So then the "motive" behind placing Elijah's name on the book - looks suspiciously like an admission that the person writing the text did not have the authority/reputation/respect within the local church of their own peers - to write under their own name. They seem to be naming it that way "for effect".

Pseude-epi-pigraphon = a scroll with the incorrect name written on the outside of the first sheet

pseudes, "false" and ἐπιγραφή, epigraphē, "name" or "inscription" or "ascription"; thus when taken together it means "false superscription or title"

Granted - it is authentically "old" just not reliable.

So lets go to the 50's and 70's and 90's - for NT writers that are even "more ancient" AND are reliable.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Jews in Ethiopia who came into the Gospel in the first century had, and kept, copies of copies of... the Book of Enoch in their possession. The Book of Enoch was written specifically for those who "would be living in the last days", says the opening chapter, and who would be "living in the tribulation when all the wicked and ungodly would be removed".

It is to give hope for those "left behind"...
In chapter 50, Enoch wrote, prophetically, in parables, of the pre-tribulation change to the glory bodies of the righteous and elect [the elect "choose" to live the elect life, in Enoch], before the tribulation comes on all the world.

Enoch chapter 50:
And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.

3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.

4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

BTW: PRAISE THE LORD! IT IS RAINING HERE! The earth rejoices!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Then, when God gave the Torah ["Teaching" is the proper translation of the Word, "Torah"], He taught in the Living Oracles the teaching/doctrine of the "Laqach"/removal of the elect and righteous from the midst of the earth, to Eden above, in the third heaven.

The third heaven is where Paradise is [as Paul also states], and is where Adam was cast down from and driven out of [divorced from the presence of the Great Glory above, in the fall], to the earth below, to labor fruitlessly for no glory, and to till the ground from whence he was taken, after the fall.

Adam had been "laqach" after his creation, to Paradise in the third heaven, to reign over earth as "firstborn" and Patriarchal high king and high priest.

The "Last Adam", the "Everlasting Father and the God of the whole earth", who is the Kinsman/Redeemer to His Adam creation brother of created human being flesh, who is the "Seed of the Woman" [Zion above, personified as a woman from Genesis to Revelation], came to ransom His Kin/brethren, by His once for all Acceptable Atonement, and to restore the kingdom of God on earth which Adam sold into sin and corruption, and to restore the reign of the human being creation over earth and to "Plant the heavens" thereby, in His own New Man name, which is "Israel", not "Adam", as to the created flesh; which God the Word, who is the Son of Man in heaven, put on "like a garment", when that body was prepared for Him in the womb of the virgin, so as to be our Kinsman/Redeemer and "seat" us back in Mount Eden, the Paradise of God, where Adam was "raptured to" in the beginning, and to reign over the earth under the Patriarchal High King and High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us, and is the "Daysman" whom Job longed for, and the "Last Adam", for He is the "Everlasting Father" of all who are adopted into His One Living Spirit out of the dead Adam spirit, and who are then going to be transformed/adopted bodily, at the "rapture/laqach", before the tribulation comes on all who dwell on earth below, "when all the wicked and godless are to be removed!!!", and then the kingdom of God is restored on earth, and Israel is the "Head of the nations" who enter that kingdom and millennial reign.

The "Laqach"/Rapture of the Elect and righteous before the tribulation is taught in the Living Oracles, and those who are students of the Word can find it there, as a huge doctrine of the restoration of all things and the rapture of the transformed sons of God to Paradise, in the third heavens, and to the presence of the Glory, there, before the tribulation.

The Jews in Ethiopia who came into the Gospel in the first century had, and kept, copies of copies of... the Book of Enoch in their possession. The Book of Enoch was written specifically for those who "would be living in the last days", says the opening chapter, and who would be "living in the tribulation when all the wicked and ungodly would be removed".

It is to give hope for those "left behind"...
In chapter 50, Enoch wrote, prophetically, in parables, of the pre-tribulation change to the glory bodies of the righteous and elect [the elect "choose" to live the elect life, in Enoch], before the tribulation comes on all the world.

Enoch chapter 50:
And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.

3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.

4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

BTW: PRAISE THE LORD! IT IS RAINING HERE! The earth rejoices!