An Interesting Seventh-day Adventist teaching about Apes breeding humans?

[Pythons]

The Amalgamation of man and beast ( ape / human hybrids ) is a teaching of the Seventh-day Adventist Church through the ministry of its prophet Ellen G. White. What I would like to do is offer this thread up for a spirited and open dialog with the real possibility of this topic ending with a determination of findings. As Ellen White is long dead I will attempt to show, in a forensic way, why I believe the first meaning a reader assigns to Ellen’s statement is the meaning she intended the reader to get. The quote,

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere.

Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, AND in certain races of men.

In the above two quotes from the prophet we may garner some simple facts that are irrefutable. 1st, Ellen believed that some species of animals AND certain races of MEN were NOT created by God as evidenced by her explicit statement that “living things died that God didn’t create” and 2nd , Confused species which were the result of one kind of animal breeding another kind of animal were exterminated by God, through the flood. It’s important to note that God killed unauthorized life and specifically targeted the offspring of male Orangutan’s and Human Females. You more or less are wondering where I got Orangutan’s, right? It’s very straightforward and simple to identify what the guilty beast is by looking back at what was accepted as biological fact in Ellen’s day and age. The following quotes are a drop of water in an ocean of quotes. Remember, the biology of Ellen’s day was based on “the Great Chain of Being” and it was UNIVERSALLY understood by any culture that had a written language that the base of the Great Chain was Hottentots, Wild Bushmen and certain American Indians. The following demonstrates the belief of that time.

I do not think that an Orang Outang husband would be a dishonour to an Hottentot Female; for what are the Hottentots?..............

Orangutans do not seem at all inferior in their intellectual faculties to many of the negro race; with some of whom, it is credible that they have the most intimate connexion and consanguinity. The amorous intercourse between them may be frequent; the negroes themselves bear testimony that such intercourse actually happens; and it is certain that both races agree perfectly well in lasciviousness of disposition

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']One could presume that hairy savages are half breeds of apes and women... how many [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es have been suprised by a libertine troop of satyrs in the african forests, could have begotten half breeds? How many even of female chimps, wild messalinas have voluntarily prostituted themselves to the ardour of the Africans? One knows nothing about what kind of love goes on in these ancient forests, where the heat of the climate, the brutal life of the inhabitants, the solitude and the delirium of passion, without law, religion, morals can lead to daring everything; and these degraded beings, these monsters half way between humans and apes....... etc, etc, etc.

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[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']We see next that Ellen states that God cannot take the slave to heaven for one of the specific reasons listed above, “it’s a creature without law, religion or morals”.[/FONT]
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God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased.

In Ellen’s view, all of the species God created were marched into Noah’s Ark (man included) and saved while the species that were confused by amalgamation (to include Orang / human hybrids) were removed via the flood. Ellen simply reflected the common understanding of biology that was taught as fact in her day as the premise an ape could breed a human woman was believed to be certainly true.

For those who want to read about, “ the Great Chain of Being theory” and that the understanding of Biology required a belief that apes could breed human females I refer you to a book called “IMAGES of SAVAGES” by Gustav Jaohoda. The book is not religious in nature, it’s primary focus is to document and trace prejudice against certain American Indians, Wild Bushman and Certain races of black people from the Cape area of Africa – all of which were considered to be the result of inter-breeding between man and beast. Stalin was so convinced it was possible he attempted to breed an army of ape – humans.

Also, if you have time check out the “Hottentot Venus” story, it was really sad but shows how the western world thought of Sara the Hottentot girl who was used as a side show.

The theology of this teaching of Seventh-day Adventists should be a good one for discussion.


Peace.
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[MamaZ]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*........The theology of this teaching of Seventh-day Adventists should be a good one for discussion.


Peace.

I just saw there are different types of SDA's on CF. I wonder if they ALL agree with what you posted.

And one question I would ask is why would they not be considered Unorthodox for that belief/view you posted, as are the JW's and LDS for their Unorthodox views/beliefs? Just curious


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[boswd]

Does anyone else find it funny or Ironic that Kellog's ( Kellog is probably the most famous name that was and SDA) have talking animals as spokesman for their cerals like Tony the Tiger and Tucan Sam. LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Does anyone else find it funny or Ironic that Kellog's ( Kellog is probably the most famous name that was and SDA) have talking animals as spokesman for their cerals like Tony the Tiger and Tucan Sam. LOL

Kellogg Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kellogg's was founded as the Battle Creek Toasted Corn Flake Company on February 19, 1906, by Will Keith Kellogg as an outgrowth of his work with his brother John Harvey Kellogg at the Battle Creek Sanitarium following practices based on the Seventh-day Adventist Christian denomination. The company produced and marketed the hugely successful Kellogg's Toasted Corn Flakes and was renamed the Kellogg Company in 1922.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Interesting. We are to discern SDA's doctrines if what OP says are true.

 

[Pythons]

I just saw there are different types of SDA's on CF. I wonder if they ALL agree with what you posted.

And one question I would ask is why would they not be considered Unorthodox for that belief/view you posted, as are the JW's and LDS for their Unorthodox views/beliefs? Just curious


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At the time period Ellen wrote that literally everyone believed that certain races of man were the result of ape-human intercourse - this wasn't a religious teaching but a fact of biology (at that time) so I for one would not blame Ellen for thinking that when people like Thomas Jefferson did as well. It should question her status as a prophet however given she has said some things that made the amalgmation statements read like Mother Goose.

I do not believe the progressive section believes in that and I do not believe that the Traditional members believe in it (any longer) It is a hard teaching when one considers that, according to Ellen White, God spoke directly through her and by holy vision established their particular doctrines. In addition, a rejection of Ellen equates to a rejection of God.

Bible truth is our only safety. I know and understand that we are to be established in the faith, in the light of the truth given us in our early experience.

At that time one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. We would search the Scriptures with much prayer, and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds.

Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures, and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of devoted men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon me, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error. {8MR 319.2}

As the points of our faith were THUS established, our feet were placed upon a solid foundation. We accepted the truth point by point, under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I would be taken off in vision, and explanations would be given me. I was given illustrations of heavenly things, and of the sanctuary, so that we were placed where light was shining on us in clear, distinct rays. {8MR 320.1}

A rejection of Ellen equates to a rejection of God.

Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby INSULTED THE SPIRIT of God. You know how the Lord has manifested himself through the spirit of prophecy.

Past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written at midnight letters that have gone across the continent, and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work of the last thirty-six years from above, or from beneath?

Interesting. We are to discern SDA's doctrines if what OP says are true.

Link to the Ellen White Estate with search engine
Ellen G. White ® Estate: The Official Ellen White ® Web site

 

[PROPHECYKID]

You should ask that question in the SDA forum. I would really be interesting to see the responses. And this is not an SDA teaching but an E.G White statement. There is a difference. I would condemn such a statement but I would love to hear from someone with more knowledge on the matter, someone accustomed to her writings to answer this. Just a question. Where do you get this stuff? Do you read EG white books all day? I didnt even know that book even existed.

 

[Stryder06]

You should ask that question in the SDA forum. I would really be interesting to see the responses. And this is not an SDA teaching but an E.G White statement. There is a difference. I would condemn such a statement but I would love to hear from someone with more knowledge on the matter, someone accustomed to her writings to answer this. Just a question. Where do you get this stuff? Do you read EG white books all day? I didnt even know that book even existed.

Indeed, this should have been posted in the Adventist thread, but then that would simply be the proper thing to do.

Check out this link
Amalgamation: Ellen G. White Statements Regarding Conditions at the Time of the Flood
It seems to be a good article explaining this subject.

 

[boswd]

Why? Calvinism, Catholicism, are all put on trial every day here, Why should the SDA's dirty laundry not be aired?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Why? Calvinism, Catholicism, are all put on trial every day here, Why should the SDA's dirty laundry not be aired?

Someday Methodist will be on trial too

 

[Pythons]

PK and Stryder, I wanted to post this in the Trad D&D area however I have been instructed to start spending less time there and GT was a suggestion of a safer place for me.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Indeed, this should have been posted in the Adventist thread, but then that would simply be the proper thing to do.

Check out this link
Amalgamation: Ellen G. White Statements Regarding Conditions at the Time of the Flood
It seems to be a good article explaining this subject.

\

Oh, i get it now. Thanks for that link.

 

[boswd]

Someday Methodist will be on trial too

LOL well we are in a round about way, it's more the Arminism that get's called out.

 

[Pythons]

You should ask that question in the SDA forum. I would really be interesting to see the responses. And this is not an SDA teaching but an E.G White statement. There is a difference. I would condemn such a statement but I would love to hear from someone with more knowledge on the matter, someone accustomed to her writings to answer this. Just a question. Where do you get this stuff? Do you read EG white books all day? I didnt even know that book even existed.

The teaching of Ape-human intercourse involving a male Orangutang and a human female, as I said, was a common understanding at Ellen White's time. I made the connection after reading a very authoritative book on the root causes of prejudice against blacks. As soon as I got to the part of the book that talks about the Great Chain of Being and how that by reverse gradations (sexual encounters with lower life forms) causing confusion of the species I remembered about Ellen White's teaching on this matter.

It was a common belief that certain races of man (blacks from the Cape area of Africa) were the result of beast -sex and there was enough breeding going on that the offspring of these innocent apes and evil women formed a race commonly called the Hottentots or Wild Bushmen. It was primarily the southeran Africans who were enslaved because it was easier to justify as they were not fully human but a confused species - it was for this reason that Ellen said God could not take the slave to heaven, it wasn't because the slave was black, instead, it was because it was half animal and God did not ordain salvation for apes.

If you are talking about "Images of Savages" I would suggest being almost drunk to read it - I literally could not believe how bad and I mean seriously bad blacks had it within America and the cruel treatment of the Hottentot Venus was as bad if not worse. The book has dozens of pictures and copy of art that circulated at the time showing things like black women being pulled into the upper canopy of trees by large Orangutangs for breeding stock while the African men stood below with spears and arrows attempting to get their girls back - it was generally believed that the Orang's would spend a couple of days engaged in brutal sex with the girl then release her.

Yes, I read a lot but due to the speed I can read I chew through books faster then most.

Good seeing ya again PK!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The teaching of Ape-human intercourse involving a male Orangutang and a human female, as I said, was a common understanding at Ellen White's time. I made the connection after reading a very authoritative book on the root causes of prejudice against blacks. As soon as I got to the part of the book that talks about the Great Chain of Being and how that by reverse gradations (sexual encounters with lower life forms) causing confusion of the species I remembered about Ellen White's teaching on this matter.

It was a common belief that certain races of man (blacks from the Cape area of Africa) were the result of beast -sex and there was enough breeding going on that the offspring of these innocent apes and evil women formed a race commonly called the Hottentots or Wild Bushmen. It was primarily the southeran Africans who were enslaved because it was easier to justify as they were not fully human but a confused species - it was for this reason that Ellen said God could not take the slave to heaven, it wasn't because the slave was black, instead, it was because it was half animal and God did not ordain salvation for apes.

If you are talking about "Images of Savages" I would suggest being almost drunk to read it - I literally could not believe how bad and I mean seriously bad blacks had it within America and the cruel treatment of the Hottentot Venus was as bad if not worse. The book has dozens of pictures and copy of art that circulated at the time showing things like black women being pulled into the upper canopy of trees by large Orangutangs for breeding stock while the African men stood below with spears and arrows attempting to get their girls back - it was generally believed that the Orang's would spend a couple of days engaged in brutal sex with the girl then release her.

Yes, I read a lot but due to the speed I can read I chew through books faster then most.

Good seeing ya again PK!

Check out the link that Stryder posted on the previous page.

 

[tall73]

You should ask that question in the SDA forum. I would really be interesting to see the responses. And this is not an SDA teaching but an E.G White statement. There is a difference. I would condemn such a statement but I would love to hear from someone with more knowledge on the matter, someone accustomed to her writings to answer this. Just a question. Where do you get this stuff? Do you read EG white books all day? I didnt even know that book even existed.

Look up Early Writings. Needless to say while the church heavily promotes many of her works her earliest works are almost NEVER promoted, and at times were edited.

If you are an Adventist and have no read Early Writings you are missing why so many have issues with Ellen White. Many of her most controversial statements were her early statements which were later sanitized, re-thought, abandoned, etc.

If you all want an Adventist discussion of it I can send you a link to a disccusion with Pythons, an Adventist pastor or two and some others (including me).

It is on another forum though so I will not post it here.

 

[tall73]

I just saw there are different types of SDA's on CF. I wonder if they ALL agree with what you posted.

And one question I would ask is why would they not be considered Unorthodox for that belief/view you posted, as are the JW's and LDS for their Unorthodox views/beliefs? Just curious


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The progressives are characterized in general by the fact that they do not accept all 28 fundamental beliefs as traditionally taught. Individual progressives might reject only one or many of the fundamental beliefs, and may some may have very different ideas about Ellen White than the mainline church.

But the official church teachings clearly endorse Ellen White.

 

[tall73]

PK and Stryder, I wanted to post this in the Trad D&D area however I have been instructed to start spending less time there and GT was a suggestion of a safer place for me.

Indeed. Pythons has had MANY threads in the Adventist section. But if they are not wanting what he has to say, then this is the place.

 

[tall73]

Check out the link that Stryder posted on the previous page.

Even if you accept that view it doesn't help you much. Then Ellen White, who points to "amalgamation" in races of men after the flood, would be condemning various races for showing signs of amalgamation.

So instead of believing in animal-man fusions she is just a common racist, and believes that mixing of races was a base crime.

She would also think dog breeding, etc. would be a base crime. Are any Adventists protesting that today?