an interesting quote from Adam Weishaupt regarding Calvinism

[AoDoA]

The most wonderful thing of all is that the distinguished Lutheran and Calvinist theologians who belong to our order really believe that they see in it (Illuminati) the true and genuine sense of Christian Religion. Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?

 

[nobdysfool]

The most wonderful thing of all is that the distinguished Lutheran and Calvinist theologians who belong to our order really believe that they see in it (Illuminati) the true and genuine sense of Christian Religion. Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?

Adam Weishaupt, that paragon of virtue and civility.....why would you believe anything he has to say?

Oh, because you think it paints Calvinists in a bad light, that makes it right?

Perhaps, if we wanted to waste the time doing so, the context of his statement should be examined. It may be that Mr. Weishaupt himself has been quoted out of context. it wouldn't be the first time someone's words have been taken out of context to trash Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists.

 

[AoDoA]

Adam Weishaupt, that paragon of virtue and civility.....why would you believe anything he has to say?

Oh, because you think it paints Calvinists in a bad light, that makes it right?

Perhaps, if we wanted to waste the time doing so, the context of his statement should be examined. It may be that Mr. Weishaupt himself has been quoted out of context. it wouldn't be the first time someone's words have been taken out of context to trash Calvinism, and by extension, Calvinists.

I believe him that distinguished Calvinist and Lutheran theologians were apart of the order and really thought it was Christian

I think that Calvinism lends itself quite well to the illuminati who also believe they are chosen, special, enlightened, ordained, superior

they also believe in a God who uses destruction purposely to evolve man "order from chaos"

this quote rings very true to me and I fail to see how it could be taken in any other context then its clear meaning

they also see most of mankind as utterly depraved and no better than the beasts of the field, worthy only of being slaughtered or imprisoned as slaves for their own selfish goals

 

[nobdysfool]

I believe him that distinguished Calvinist and Lutheran theologians were apart of the order and really thought it was Christian

He was educated as a Jesuit, dabbled in gnostic mysteries, and embraced Deism and Perfectionism. No self-respecting Calvinist would have had anything to do with such heresies. The fact that Weishaupt concealed his true motives and aims might have fooled a few, but there were many Calvinists and Lutherans who spoke against and exposed the aims of the Illuminati. so I believe you have, in fact, misquoted, and attempted to promote a falsehood about Calvinists and Lutherans

I think that Calvinism lends itself quite well to the illuminati who also believe they are chosen, special, enlightened, ordained, superior

Calvinism neither teaches or condones such attitudes. And Calvinists do not hold such attitudes. Such false charges as this constitute flaming and baiting. Read the rules of the forum, and abide by them.

they also believe in a God who uses destruction purposely to evolve man "order from chaos"

Again, completely false regarding Calvinists and Calvinism.

this quote rings very true to me and I fail to see how it could be taken in any other context then its clear meaning

Your information about Calvinism is defective, and clearly based on falsehoods. In short, you do not know what you so confidently assert.

 

[AoDoA]

of course I don't believe that the illuminati and Calvinism are absolutely compatible, especially today when the illuminati's motives have been clearly demonstrated to be absolutely evil

but I still think the quote rings true

I think some were deceived into believing the order was Christian in nature

my question is:

if they were able to be deceived into believing an order of the devil was Christian whos to say they have not been deceived in other ways namely their theology???

 

[nobdysfool]

of course I don't believe that the illuminati and Calvinism is absolutely compatible especially today when their motives have been clearly demonstrated to be absolutely evil

but I still think the quote rings true

I think some were deceived into believing the order was Christian in nature

my question is:

if they were able to be deceived into believing an order of the devil was Christian whos to say they have not been deceived in other ways namely their theology???

as long as you consider that the same applies equally to you and your theology.

Paul says we know in part, and prophesy in part. That means no one is 100% correct. But let's be clear here. For some reason, Calvinists and Calvinism are singled out over nearly every other form of Christianity for the most egregious attacks, slander, libel and villification. You don't see Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists attacked in that fashion.

The very mention of Calvinism causes hatred and violence to arise in the hearts of people. I have seen it here in this forum. And attacks are launched all the time, every day here, some overt, but most very subtle and covert. Such as the attack you made in this thread. Don't bother trying to say that it wasn't, because it clearly was, by attempting to associate Calvinists with the Illuminati, a discredited and debunked secret society. Most Christians are knowledgeable enough to avoid Free Masonry as well. Calvinism neither endorses, teaches or condones participation in such organizations. While there may be individual Calvinists who have gotten involved, that cannot be used to indict all Calvinists or Calvinism in general. it is a logical fallacy to do so.

So, again as long as you are willing to hold your theology up to the same standard of scrutiny that you demand of Calvinism, I hope that you will understand that I am only trying to set the record straight, and advocate for a rational rather than emotional approach to the subject of Calvinism and it's theological underpinnings.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

No disrespect, but in my experience with my own friends taught me the following: when a believer does NOT have bible as his main focus; albeit when being a Berean is not of main importance, other things, even everything from spurious ideas of aliens in the Bible to Illuminati conjecture, will take up that person's time and thoughts.

When a man becomes too busy with the things of this world, or like Martha, so occupied with "serving," he has no time and heart to search and study God's Holy word, he will not bother to honestly hear high and lofty truth when it is presented. Rather, he will be content to make false assertions of it, and altogether disgrard it as "not true," all for the sake of not having to actually study to see if it is true.

 

[AoDoA]

as long as you consider that the same applies equally to you and your theology.

Paul says we know in part, and prophesy in part. That means no one is 100% correct. But let's be clear here. For some reason, Calvinists and Calvinism are singled out over nearly every other form of Christianity for the most egregious attacks, slander, libel and villification. You don't see Lutherans or Methodists or Baptists attacked in that fashion.

The very mention of Calvinism causes hatred and violence to arise in the hearts of people. I have seen it here in this forum. And attacks are launched all the time, every day here, some overt, but most very subtle and covert. Such as the attack you made in this thread. Don't bother trying to say that it wasn't, because it clearly was, by attempting to associate Calvinists with the Illuminati, a discredited and debunked secret society. Most Christians are knowledgeable enough to avoid Free Masonry as well. Calvinism neither endorses, teaches or condones participation in such organizations. While there may be individual Calvinists who have gotten involved, that cannot be used to indict all Calvinists or Calvinism in general. it is a logical fallacy to do so.

So, again as long as you are willing to hold your theology up to the same standard of scrutiny that you demand of Calvinism, I hope that you will understand that I am only trying to set the record straight, and advocate for a rational rather than emotional approach to the subject of Calvinism and it's theological underpinnings.

yes its an attack

the answer for why Calvinism is singled out and attacked and stirs up anger etc is because its a false doctrine which paints God as a vicious dictator and not the loving God we have come to know and love

and I will be honest here with you...there is a distinct attitude amongst many Calvinist's which could only be described as bitter

Calvinist's also tend to play games of misdirection when debating instead of tackling the subjects at hand....they tend to launch their own subtle attacks aimed at sparking anger in the person they are debating with so as to avoid the topic which they are unable to discuss from their own interpretations and understandings

Many Calvinist's link people to long winded overly complicated descriptions of what they believe and seem incapable of simple straight forward answers

Calvinist's also hide behind the excuse that no one understands what they believe...but in reality I don't think most actually understand what they believe either

I'm not trying to be rude though I know you will take offense

I am being honest and straight forward

I'm not planning on discussing this much further because I do not want to argue or fight or offend my brothers and sisters

but I thought it would be good to post that quote regardless

 

[AoDoA]

No disrespect, but in my experience with my own friends taught me the following: when a believer does NOT have bible as his main focus; albeit when being a Berean is not of main importance, other things, even everything from spurious ideas of aliens in the Bible to Illuminati conjecture, will take up that person's time and thoughts.

When a man becomes too busy with the things of this world, or like Martha, so occupied with "serving," he has no time and heart to search and study God's Holy word, he will not bother to honestly hear high and lofty truth when it is presented. Rather, he will be content to make false assertions of it, and altogether disgrard it as "not true," all for the sake of not having to actually study to see if it is true.

so you believe that I have spent so much time researching the illuminati and what they believe that I have drifted from my understandings of scripture?

I was extremely opposed to the doctrine of Calvinism long before I had taken up illuminati research

for the most part my beliefs remain identical and I almost always use scripture to back my points(though I haven't used it in this thread)

1 Corinthians 1:

11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?



I think you will understand how this relates to Calvinism


and if you don't maybe your not being as honest with yourself as you should be...

 

[nobdysfool]

yes its an attack

the answer for why Calvinism is singled out and attacked and stirs up anger etc is because its a false doctrine which paints God as a vicious dictator and not the loving God we have come to know and love

and I will be honest here with you...there is a distinct attitude amongst many Calvinist's which could only be described as bitter

Calvinist's also tend to play games of misdirection when debating instead of tackling the subjects at hand....they tend to launch their own subtle attacks aimed at sparking anger in the person they are debating with so as to avoid the topic which they are unable to discuss from their own interpretations and understandings

Many Calvinist's link people to long winded overly complicated descriptions of what they believe and seem incapable of simple straight forward answers

Calvinist's also hide behind the excuse that no one understands what they believe...but in reality I don't think most actually understand what they believe either

I'm not trying to be rude though I know you will take offense

I am being honest and straight forward

I'm not planning on discussing this much further because I do not want to argue or fight or offend my brothers and sisters

but I thought it would be good to post that quote regardless

At least you admitted your bias and hatred. That's more than most anti-Calvinists will do. yes, what you've said offends me, because it is not true. I will not bother trying to convince you of it, because it would be a waste of my time. I cannot convince anyone of anything, that's the Holy Spirit's job. I arrived at my beliefs after long study and thought, not from any "indoctrination" or formal Calvinist teaching. I believe the Doctrines of Grace to be biblical, and God-honoring.

As for the quote, it was in reality a waste of internet bandwidth.

 

[AoDoA]

At least you admitted your bias and hatred. That's more than most anti-Calvinists will do. yes, what you've said offends me, because it is not true. I will not bother trying to convince you of it, because it would be a waste of my time. I cannot convince anyone of anything, that's the Holy Spirit's job. I arrived at my beliefs after long study and thought, not from any "indoctrination" or formal Calvinist teaching. I believe the Doctrines of Grace to be biblical, and God-honoring.

As for the quote, it was in reality a waste of internet bandwidth.

Romans 12:

9Let love be without hypocrisy Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

I believe the doctrine is evil

I don't hate you or anyone else

but I hate the doctrine yes

 

[Terrence Theodore]

so you believe that I have spent so much time researching the illuminati and what they believe that I have drifted from my understandings of scripture?

I was extremely opposed to the doctrine of Calvinism long before I had taken up illuminati research

for the most part my beliefs remain identical and I almost always use scripture to back my points(though I haven't used it in this thread)

1 Corinthians 1:

11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

I think you will understand how this relates to Calvinism


and if you don't maybe your not being as honest with yourself as you should be...

I understand why you think I should understand why that verse relates to Calvinism. Yet, no Calvinist views their beliefs as anything other than what scripture actually teaches. To call it "Calvinism" is just for us, the actual truth of the gospel. Calvinism is just a nickname.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Romans 12:

9Let love be without hypocrisy Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

I believe the doctrine is evil

I don't hate you or anyone else

but I hate the doctrine yes

Its it presumptuous to say "Calvinism is evil," if you aren't even sure? In your opinion, what's the worse thing about Calvinism?

 

[AoDoA]

Its it presumptuous to say "Calvinism is evil," if you aren't even sure? In your opinion, what's the worse thing about Calvinism?

the people who feel like they aren't good enough to be God's children

the people who are turned off of Christianity because of the doctrine(if they are taught it when inquiring about Christ)

the people who feel like they are better than others because they have been chosen

the fact that the man who introduced the doctrine to the world had people killed who disagreed with him

the fact that Christians wear the name and refer to themselves based on another flawed man and not Christ primarily

the fact that Calvinist's consider God's created beings incapable of anything good and seem to almost hate humanity

the fact that the doctrine contradicts a boat load of scripture

the fact that it makes God out to be a brutal bully, not a loving Father

the fact that it thinks we are incapable of searching after God and wanting to know God unless God makes that possible first

the fact that it takes away the amazing relational aspect of God's created beings with their creator

the fact that its completely illogical and makes the creation seem pointless and void of any real meaning

the fact that its naturalistic and blinds the eyes so they are incapable of uncovering some of the many nuanced intricacies about how the spirit realm is functioning

the fact that it can be a stumbling block to people when they are first introduced to the doctrine and have to wonder if they could serve a God who would do such things(from personal experience)

the fact that it rely's on rhetoric and most of its adherents don't even seem to understand what the doctrine means

it creates confusion in the believers heart where they are not even sure what they believe

the fact that I feel a separation from some of my brothers and sisters in that I feel as though we aren't even on the same wave length and not within the same Spirit because we are worshiping 2 very different perceptions of God

the fact that I believe it can be an excuse for people to choose the path of destruction and give up(it creates a sense of hopelessness)

one of the reasons it turned my stomach so much when I first was introduced to these beliefs is that the girl I love was convinced that she was just evil and incapable of good, unwanted by God, unlovable, a child of the dark

even though shes a soft spoken, gentle beautiful human being who I love like I have never loved anything else before

the thought of a naive doctrine re-enforcing this feeling within her enraged me...the thought of losing this beautiful star over a pompous "know it all" yet in actuality knows nothing, hate filled doctrine was almost too much to take

luckily I think shes finally starting to believe in herself so I best not think back on painful memory's

 

[nobdysfool]

So much of what you say is just factually not true, and subjectively based on things other than Scripture. it is quite possible that your interaction with some claiming to be Calvinists (who actually, based on your words, sound more like HyperCalvinists, who are not true Calvinists) has been such that you have been presented with a very skewed and false view of Calvinism and Calvinists. I can understand why you think as you do, but i cannot agree with it.

It's been my experience that those who claim to hate the doctrine and not the person, sooner or later come to hate the persons, too.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

AoDoA

Brother, now we're getting some where. Please be honest the following responses!

the people who feel like they aren't good enough to be God's children

How does Calvinism make people feel "not good enough" to be God's children? Please explain.

the people who are turned off of Christianity because of the doctrine(if they are taught it when inquiring about Christ)

Please be specific, as I have not heard these things. What about the doctrine turns people away?

the people who feel like they are better than others because they have been chosen

This is very interesting to me, because I sincerely believe that a person's doctrine will dictate how they live. My own belief teaches that God chose, from one group of wicked God hating and sin loving people, some to display his grace/mercy. Those whom he chose did nothing to earn such a grace, as they were no better than those not chosen. Therefore, a superior attitude would be inane. In fact, if I were to guess why he choose me, I would have to say, "he chooses the weak and foolish things of the world to shame the wise." But that's my belief. What of yours? Do you believe that he choose you because of something you did? If so, then isn't it you who have much to boast about? Isn't it you who should feel "better than another?"

the fact that the man who introduced the doctrine to the world had people killed who disagreed with him

Calvin and Servetus? What if I said, "the man who introduced what some call 'Calvinism,' but what you know as 'the Gospel,' to the world, was a Jesus hating murderer?" Would you believe me? Probably not. Nevertheless, its true. His name was Saul, but after an encounter with the risen Jesus, he came to be known as Paul. In his day, his own Jewish brothers didn't believe his doctrine cause they reasoned, "if he were truly of God, why would he teach this Christ?" Yet, like much of you here, they never sought to test what he actually said, namely his doctrine, to see if it were try. Instead, rather, they only used the man as a scapegoat so that they would not have to actually take the time to test what he taught. Its always easier that way.

the fact that Christians wear the name and refer to themselves based on another flawed man and not Christ primarily

If a man who adhered to any particular doctrine, and have his identity in that doctrine and not in Christ, he is in great error. I thank God that I personally do not know any person like that. Do you personally know people who would claim Calvinism before Christ?

the fact that Calvinist's consider God's created beings incapable of anything good and seem to almost hate humanity

Calvinist don't believe that. Men can do good. I know of many men who hate Jesus that do good for their fellow man. Calvinism does teach, however, that from God's perspective, man's good isn't good, but sin. Consider Isa 64:6..."your righteousness is as filthy menstruation rags," and Rom 14:23..."whatever is not of faith IS sin." As to your claim that Calvinism seem to hate humanity. If you were to just check our Christian history, you would come to see that it has been those who adhered to Reformed Theology, who has been the greatest of preachers, greatest men of prayer, men who left all to go be missionaries, start hospitals, write hymns, bring Jesus to countries where he is not known, etc., have all been, by and large, Calvinist. Again, a person's doctrine determines what kind of life they will live. Our history shows the fruits of a high theology, and at the same time, shows the fruits of a small theology. We live in the age of small theology.

the fact that the doctrine contradicts a boat load of scripture

Such as?

the fact that it makes God out to be a brutal bully, not a loving Father

How so? In what way do you mean?

the fact that it thinks we are incapable of searching after God and wanting to know God unless God makes that possible first

Have you not read, "No man can come to me, unless the Father draw him" (John 6:44)?

the fact that it takes away the amazing relational aspect of God's created beings with their creator

How so?

the fact that its completely illogical and makes the creation seem pointless and void of any real meaning

How does Calvinism make creation seem pointless or void of meaning? How is it illogical?

the fact that its naturalistic and blinds the eyes so they are incapable of uncovering some of the many nuanced intricacies about how the spirit realm is functioning

How so?

the fact that it can be a stumbling block to people when they are first introduced to the doctrine and have to wonder if they could serve a God who would do such things(from personal experience)

This I agree with! Everyone is born understanding scripture from a freewill perspective (even those who never come to Christ see it this way). It is the grace of God - and only His powerful Grace - that can change us to see it from his perspective. But I just made a claim that I cannot prove, UNLESS of course, we would let scriptures talk instead of our sincere emotions.

the fact that it rely's on rhetoric and most of its adherents don't even seem to understand what the doctrine means

You're making a lot of claims here; and under the guise of "facts." In what way do you feel Calvinist do not understand what the doctrine means?

it creates confusion in the believers heart where they are not even sure what they believe

How so?

the fact that I feel a separation from some of my brothers and sisters in that I feel as though we aren't even on the same wave length and not within the same Spirit because we are worshiping 2 very different perceptions of God

God saves apart from ability to grasp theological truth, but ANY and EVERYONE who repents and trust in the Savior. Therefore, it is your duty, and mine, to LOVE ALL the brethren! And never forget, "the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will" (2Ti 2:24-26). Now while the verse is in context of witnessing to unbelievers, I am making an application. We are to be patient, not quarrelsome, but kind and able to teach our opponents (whether Christian or Non-Christian), only then - if we do these things - God may be pleased to use us to bring truth to the person we are talking with.

If a believer's attitude or aim in arguing a point is simply to bring attention to themselves, or be seen by others, they will have their reward. They will have what they seek, but like everything else, it will not last. ONLY what is done for Jesus' glory will last. Therefore, if our motivation in arguing a point is done to bring honor and glory to God, and benefit his people, God will use it and the person will recieve his reward. Even if the believer is wrong in is understanding, and desires God's glory and his brother's benefit and growth, God will bring that person to the truth. Therefore it is extremely important to be humble!

the fact that I believe it can be an excuse for people to choose the path of destruction and give up(it creates a sense of hopelessness)

"The fact that I believe" is an oxymoronic statement that aside. That's EXACTLY what the Apostle Paul had to deal with in his day. When he taught grace as I understand it, people were claiming that "it would lead to careless living." But to the person who understands grace, will be motivated "by the mercies of God, to offer themselves as a living sacrifice." You see, if you understand grace, you won't live right in order to try to get into a good standing with God, but you will live right because "its your reasonable sacrifice." Our motivation for obedience is simply because he loved us, now we want to love him back. As scriptures teach:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age..." (Tit 2:11-15).

one of the reasons it turned my stomach so much when I first was introduced to these beliefs is that the girl I love was convinced that she was just evil and incapable of good, unwanted by God, unlovable, a child of the dark even though shes a soft spoken, gentle beautiful human being who I love like I have never loved anything else before the thought of a naive doctrine re-enforcing this feeling within her enraged me...the thought of losing this beautiful star over a pompous "know it all" yet in actuality knows nothing, hate filled doctrine was almost too much to take luckily I think shes finally starting to believe in herself so I best not think back on painful memory's

Why did Calvinism lead you to believe that God did not love your old girlfriend, or that she was not wanted by God? In your own words, what does Calvinism teach?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Secret hidden option: There's no illuminati conspiracy and Calvinism might still have problems!

 

[depthdeception]

Secret hidden option: There's no illuminati conspiracy and Calvinism might still have problems!

Might have problems? I think it goes without saying...

 

[depthdeception]

Oh, because you think it paints Calvinists in a bad light, that makes it right?

Hmm, seems about right to me. I would further inquire, however, whether or not it is sexy. Sexiness, after all, is one of more important parts of the adjudication of the true.

 

[AoDoA]

AoDoA

Brother, now we're getting some where. Please be honest the following responses!

the people who feel like they aren't good enough to be God's children

How does Calvinism make people feel "not good enough" to be God's children? Please explain.

well your doctrine teaches that God will not choose to save everyone does it not? so this could easily make a person look within and come to the conclusion that they are not one who God would ever consider saving...I realize you believe that God saves independent of any logical human reason but this still would be the natural reaction of a sinner IMO

not very inviting...you can't tell someone "God wants you" because you don't know if He actually does or not

the people who are turned off of Christianity because of the doctrine(if they are taught it when inquiring about Christ)

Please be specific, as I have not heard these things. What about the doctrine turns people away?

the fact that God wants some and not others...I know I am turned off by this and I can almost guarantee others would feel the same...I bet if I went out and did a survey I would verify my assumptions

the people who feel like they are better than others because they have been chosen

This is very interesting to me, because I sincerely believe that a person's doctrine will dictate how they live. My own belief teaches that God chose, from one group of wicked God hating and sin loving people, some to display his grace/mercy. Those whom he chose did nothing to earn such a grace, as they were no better than those not chosen. Therefore, a superior attitude would be inane. In fact, if I were to guess why he choose me, I would have to say, "he chooses the weak and foolish things of the world to shame the wise." But that's my belief. What of yours? Do you believe that he choose you because of something you did? If so, then isn't it you who have much to boast about? Isn't it you who should feel "better than another?"

if God selected you from a group of wicked sinners to be given His Spirit OBVIOUSLY you believe you have been elevated to a different superior status

the fact that the man who introduced the doctrine to the world had people killed who disagreed with him

Calvin and Servetus? What if I said, "the man who introduced what some call 'Calvinism,' but what you know as 'the Gospel,' to the world, was a Jesus hating murderer?" Would you believe me? Probably not. Nevertheless, its true. His name was Saul, but after an encounter with the risen Jesus, he came to be known as Paul. In his day, his own Jewish brothers didn't believe his doctrine cause they reasoned, "if he were truly of God, why would he teach this Christ?" Yet, like much of you here, they never sought to test what he actually said, namely his doctrine, to see if it were try. Instead, rather, they only used the man as a scapegoat so that they would not have to actually take the time to test what he taught. Its always easier that way.

Paul repented of his actions and suffered greatly because of them IMO(his future imprisionments)

did Calvin ever repent of his murderous ways?

the fact that Christians wear the name and refer to themselves based on another flawed man and not Christ primarily

If a man who adhered to any particular doctrine, and have his identity in that doctrine and not in Christ, he is in great error. I thank God that I personally do not know any person like that. Do you personally know people who would claim Calvinism before Christ?

lets say your doctrine is wrong(just for arguments sake) have you not put Calvinism before a truth of Christ?

the fact that Calvinist's consider God's created beings incapable of anything good and seem to almost hate humanity

Calvinist don't believe that. Men can do good. I know of many men who hate Jesus that do good for their fellow man. Calvinism does teach, however, that from God's perspective, man's good isn't good, but sin. Consider Isa 64:6..."your righteousness is as filthy menstruation rags," and Rom 14:23..."whatever is not of faith IS sin." As to your claim that Calvinism seem to hate humanity. If you were to just check our Christian history, you would come to see that it has been those who adhered to Reformed Theology, who has been the greatest of preachers, greatest men of prayer, men who left all to go be missionaries, start hospitals, write hymns, bring Jesus to countries where he is not known, etc., have all been, by and large, Calvinist. Again, a person's doctrine determines what kind of life they will live. Our history shows the fruits of a high theology, and at the same time, shows the fruits of a small theology. We live in the age of small theology.

I agree that our works are not considered good in the strictest sense towards God without Christ(all who are truly are in Christ are considered good before God)

I still think that good in a non-believer whether that person is to come to faith in Christ or not attains some type favor with God

the fact that the doctrine contradicts a boat load of scripture

Such as?

been through this over and over again...not posting it all now

the fact that it makes God out to be a brutal bully, not a loving Father

How so? In what way do you mean?

a God would would choose to spare some and not others when neither are worthy of being spared is an unfair God...Hes also brutal in that He would create man with the intention of Him falling only to glorify Himself with no regard for the men He MADE to be in conflict with Himself

the fact that it thinks we are incapable of searching after God and wanting to know God unless God makes that possible first

Have you not read, "No man can come to me, unless the Father draw him" (John 6:44)?

and I believe God is drawing and speaking out to ALL MEN in various ways(even through consequence of negative choices), even through the attributes of the natural created universe as stated in scripture

"so they are without excuse"

the fact that it takes away the amazing relational aspect of God's created beings with their creator

How so?

it makes the decision to choose Christ moot and ultimately His decision, making our love for Him only love for Himself...our loves becomes without meaning

the fact that its completely illogical and makes the creation seem pointless and void of any real meaning

How does Calvinism make creation seem pointless or void of meaning? How is it illogical?

as I stated above, if God only created to make all the decisions anyways then we are simply acting our a predetermined script and become nothing more then glorified theater

the fact that its naturalistic and blinds the eyes so they are incapable of uncovering some of the many nuanced intricacies about how the spirit realm is functioning

How so?

I'll get back to ya on this one, I'm having trouble finding the right words to express what I mean

the fact that it can be a stumbling block to people when they are first introduced to the doctrine and have to wonder if they could serve a God who would do such things(from personal experience)

This I agree with! Everyone is born understanding scripture from a freewill perspective (even those who never come to Christ see it this way). It is the grace of God - and only His powerful Grace - that can change us to see it from his perspective. But I just made a claim that I cannot prove, UNLESS of course, we would let scriptures talk instead of our sincere emotions.

this is a very powerful statement you have made...you have admitted that we are BORN with an understanding of freewill based on scripture

is this why Calvinist's consider themselves to be "born again" because they have rejected their gut understanding of scripture in favor of a doctrine of man

without the doctrine of Calvinism no one would come to this conclusion on their own(well I suppose Calvin did so this is not completely accurate either)

God's word does NOT lead to a Calvinistic understanding of it in most(I would say thats accurate) without being further expounded by extra biblical sources

very powerful statement indeed

the fact that it rely's on rhetoric and most of its adherents don't even seem to understand what the doctrine means

You're making a lot of claims here; and under the guise of "facts." In what way do you feel Calvinist do not understand what the doctrine means?

I've seen this countless times myself...I've asked Calvinist's to explain their position and what their doctrine means and what they believe and they seem unable or unwilling to pinpoint without referring to wordy, rhetoric laced documents written by mere men what they believe

it creates confusion in the believers heart where they are not even sure what they believe

How so?

if you know deep down that you really don't know what you understand and are reliant on what others tell you is true that would create confusion...especially when asked to explain your positions

the fact that I feel a separation from some of my brothers and sisters in that I feel as though we aren't even on the same wave length and not within the same Spirit because we are worshiping 2 very different perceptions of God

God saves apart from ability to grasp theological truth, but ANY and EVERYONE who repents and trust in the Savior. Therefore, it is your duty, and mine, to LOVE ALL the brethren! And never forget, "the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will" (2Ti 2:24-26). Now while the verse is in context of witnessing to unbelievers, I am making an application. We are to be patient, not quarrelsome, but kind and able to teach our opponents (whether Christian or Non-Christian), only then - if we do these things - God may be pleased to use us to bring truth to the person we are talking with.

If a believer's attitude or aim in arguing a point is simply to bring attention to themselves, or be seen by others, they will have their reward. They will have what they seek, but like everything else, it will not last. ONLY what is done for Jesus' glory will last. Therefore, if our motivation in arguing a point is done to bring honor and glory to God, and benefit his people, God will use it and the person will recieve his reward. Even if the believer is wrong in is understanding, and desires God's glory and his brother's benefit and growth, God will bring that person to the truth. Therefore it is extremely important to be humble!

I'm skipping this one

the fact that I believe it can be an excuse for people to choose the path of destruction and give up(it creates a sense of hopelessness)

"The fact that I believe" is an oxymoronic statement that aside. That's EXACTLY what the Apostle Paul had to deal with in his day. When he taught grace as I understand it, people were claiming that "it would lead to careless living." But to the person who understands grace, will be motivated "by the mercies of God, to offer themselves as a living sacrifice." You see, if you understand grace, you won't live right in order to try to get into a good standing with God, but you will live right because "its your reasonable sacrifice." Our motivation for obedience is simply because he loved us, now we want to love him back. As scriptures teach:

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age..." (Tit 2:11-15).

what I'm talking about is careless living because they believe they are hopeless and have not been chosen from God so "why bother being good at all since I"m damned for hell anyways"

one of the reasons it turned my stomach so much when I first was introduced to these beliefs is that the girl I love was convinced that she was just evil and incapable of good, unwanted by God, unlovable, a child of the dark even though shes a soft spoken, gentle beautiful human being who I love like I have never loved anything else before the thought of a naive doctrine re-enforcing this feeling within her enraged me...the thought of losing this beautiful star over a pompous "know it all" yet in actuality knows nothing, hate filled doctrine was almost too much to take luckily I think shes finally starting to believe in herself so I best not think back on painful memory's

Why did Calvinism lead you to believe that God did not love your old girlfriend, or that she was not wanted by God? In your own words, what does Calvinism teach?

it did not lead me to believe that God did not love my GF, it made me to fear that she felt this way in part because of this doctrine

my answers above