An examination of the claim that God decreed Adam's fall

[Hammster]

When educations prove to be a waste of money.

 

[Clare73]

Not true. Romans 9 has God electing those whom He will work through. The electing is not unto salvation.

Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33 are about salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Since Adam didn't exist, these questions are all a bit pointless

It is your false assertion that is pointless.

 

[Iosias]

Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33 are about salvation.

Romans 9-11 is about Israel, not individual salvation, cf. here.

 

[Clare73]

Was 'Luke' living at the time Adam supposedly lived, or was he (whoever 'he' was) reflecting the beliefs of those alive during the late apostolic period? Just because 'Luke' believed Adam existed, does not mean Adam existed.

More Bibliclically true is that just because you believe Adam did not exist does not mean he did not exist.

 

[Iosias]

It is your false assertion that is pointless.

Please show how my statement is false

 

[Iosias]

More Bibliclically true is that just because you believe Adam did not exist does not mean he did not exist.

My belief is grounded upon both literary and scientific evidence.

 

[Clare73]

Do say why you think Adam did not exist.

The nature of the source material; Genesis 2-3 was composed during the exilic period by the Yahwist who made use of Deuteronomistic theology but universalising it.

See Prologue to History: The Yahwist as Historian in Genesis by John Van Seters and Pentateuch, Hexateuch, or Enneateuch? edited by Thomas B. Dozeman, Konrad Schmid and Thomas Romer.

Same old same old. . ."Hath God said?"

 

[jdbrown]

When educations prove to be a waste of money.

Yes, quite right.

"Yet let no one contend,
and let none accuse,
for with you is my contention, O priest.
You shall stumble by day;
the prophet also shall stumble with you by night;
and I will destroy your mother.
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;
because you have rejected knowledge,
I reject you from being a priest to me.
And since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children." Hosea 4:4-6

 

[Iosias]

Same old same old. . ."Hath God said?"

No, deal with the argument. I am laying out an argument using evidence assessing the composition of Gen. 2-3.

As Peter Enns has pointed out:

Israel’s history as a nation can be broken down as follows:
1. Israel is “created” by God at the exodus through a cosmic battle (gods are defeated and the Red Sea is “divided”);
2. The Israelites are given Canaan to inhabit, a lush land flowing with milk and honey;
3. They remain in the land as long as they obey the Mosaic law;
4. They persist in a pattern of disobedience and are exiled to Babylon.

Israel’s history parallels Adam’s drama in Genesis:
1. Adam is created in Genesis 2 after the taming of chaos in Genesis 1;
2. Adam is placed in a lush garden;
3. Law (not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) is given as a stipulation for remaining in the garden;
4. Adam and Eve disobey and are exiled.

You could say that the Adam story came first and then the Israelites just followed that pattern. But there is another way. Maybe Israel’s history happened first, and the Adam story was written to reflect that history. In other words, the Adam story is really an Israel story placed in primeval time. It is not a story of human origins but of Israel’s origins.

The question in Genesis is whether “Adam” will be obedient to “the law” and stay in Eden, thus continuing this special relationship, or join the other “adam” outside in “exile.” This is the same question with Israel: after being “created” by God, will they obey and remain in the land, or disobey and be exiled? Having said all this let me take a step or two back. I am not saying that this is ALL there is to the Adam story. There are all sorts of angles one can take to get at that extremely rich and deep piece of theology. But the “Adam is Israel” angle is at the very least a very good one—and in my opinion a much better angle than seeing Adam as the first human and all humans are descended from him. Genesis does not support that reading. This “Israel-centered” reading of Adam is not a stretch. It is widely recognized, not only in modern scholarship, but by pre-modern interpreters

See here.

 

[Clare73]

Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33 are about salvation.

Romans 9-11 is about Israel, not individual salvation.

Fail.

1) Irrelevant to the point I presented, which you did not address.

2) I did not refer to Ro 10-11.

3) And salvation is individual only, through individual faith by grace.

 

[Clare73]

Please show how my statement is false

Please show that the existence of God is false.

 

[Iosias]

Please show that God does not exist.

You claim that my statement 'Adam didn't exist' is false, I am now asking you to prove your claim.

Further, I believe God exists, being a Christian and all that.

 

[Clare73]

My belief is grounded upon both literary and scientific evidence.

My belief is grounded upon evidence of the powerful witness of the Holy Spirit to my spirit
testifying that the canonical Scriptures are true.

 

[Iosias]

My belief is grounded upon evidence of the powerful witness of the Holy Spirit to my spirit testifying that the canonical Scriptures are true.

That is not evidence: again, please demonstrate that Adam existed as an historical individual. I also believe that the canonical Scriptures are true.

 

[Hammster]

Swell someone read a book.

 

[Clare73]

No, deal with the argument. I am laying out an argument using evidence assessing the composition of Gen. 2-3.

"Evidence" is in the eye of the beholder.

Your "evidence" is pure speculation.

As Peter Enns has pointed out:

Israel’s history as a nation can be broken down as follows:
1. Israel is “created” by God at the exodus through a cosmic battle (gods are defeated and the Red Sea is “divided”);
2. The Israelites are given Canaan to inhabit, a lush land flowing with milk and honey;
3. They remain in the land as long as they obey the Mosaic law;
4. They persist in a pattern of disobedience and are exiled to Babylon.

Israel’s history parallels Adam’s drama in Genesis:
1. Adam is created in Genesis 2 after the taming of chaos in Genesis 1;
2. Adam is placed in a lush garden;
3. Law (not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) is given as a stipulation for remaining in the garden;
4. Adam and Eve disobey and are exiled.

You could say that the Adam story came first and then the Israelites just followed that pattern. But there is another way. Maybe Israel’s history happened first, and the Adam story was written to reflect that history.

And I could speculate that maybe there is no gravity, for which speculation I have as much concrete evidence as you have for your speculation.

 

[Iosias]

You are only speculating.

Do you agree that there is a great deal of similarity in the way that the story of Israel is presented in the Deuteronomistic History and how the story of Adam is presented in Gen. 2-3?

 

[jdbrown]

Swell someone read a book.

"The Holy Spirit is not a skeptic, and the things he revealed are more certain than life itself. Away with the skeptics! Away with the academics!" ~ Martin Luther

 

[Clare73]

You claim that my statement 'Adam didn't exist' is false, I am now asking you to prove your claim.

Further, I believe God exists, being a Christian and all that.

Good, then please prove false the testimony of the Holy Spirit to my spirit that the canonical Scriptures are God's truth.