An examination of the claim that God decreed Adam's fall

janxharris

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It has been claimed that God decreed the fall of Adam, so I would like to examine the nature of this decree and its relation to Adam and his will.

What foreknowledge, if any, of what He (God) was about to create determined the nature of the decree?
Was the decree made without regard to anything of Adam?
Was eternal obedience a real possibility for Adam?
 

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It has been claimed that God decreed the fall of Adam, so I would like to examine the nature of this decree and its relation to Adam and his will.

What foreknowledge, if any, of what He (God) was about to create determined the nature of the decree?
Was the decree made without regard to anything of Adam?
Was eternal obedience a real possibility for Adam?

First off, do you believe God decrees anything? If so, what?
 
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Skala

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It has been claimed that God decreed the fall of Adam, so I would like to examine the nature of this decree and its relation to Adam and his will.

What foreknowledge, if any, of what He (God) was about to create determined the nature of the decree?
Was the decree made without regard to anything of Adam?
Was eternal obedience a real possibility for Adam?

Did God allow the snake to talk to Eve, knowing what would happen if he did? Doesn't he know all possible futures?

Why did God not kill the snake the moment it came within 50 yards of Eve? Zap. Bye bye snake. No temptation, no fall.

Seems obvious that the fall was part of God's overall purpose.
 
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travelah

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Did God allow the snake to talk to Eve, knowing what would happen if he did? Doesn't he know all possible futures?

Why did God not kill the snake the moment it came within 50 yards of Eve? Zap. Bye bye snake. No temptation, no fall.

Seems obvious that the fall was part of God's overall purpose.

Do you consider yourself a supralapsarian?
 
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travelah

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It has been claimed that God decreed the fall of Adam, so I would like to examine the nature of this decree and its relation to Adam and his will.

What foreknowledge, if any, of what He (God) was about to create determined the nature of the decree?
Was the decree made without regard to anything of Adam?
Was eternal obedience a real possibility for Adam?

I think it is careful of us to understand what is meant by "decree" and how that relates to "meticulous determinism".
 
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Hammster

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I think it is careful of us to understand what is meant by "decree" and how that relates to "meticulous determinism".

Go ahead and explain. We are all waiting.
 
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Skala

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Go ahead and explain. We are all waiting.

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"3. How is it possible for God to DECREE that men SHOULD commit certain sins, hold them RESPONSIBLE in the committal of them, and adjudge them GUILTY because they committed them?

Let us now consider the extreme case of Judas. We hold that it is clear from Scripture that God decreed from all eternity that Judas should betray the Lord Jesus. If anyone should challenge this statement we refer him to the prophecy of Zechariah through whom God declared that His Son should be sold for "thirty pieces of silver" (Zech. 11:12). As we have said in earlier pages, in prophecy God makes known what will be, and in making known what will be He is but revealing to us what He has ordained shall be. That Judas was the one through whom the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled needs not to be argued. But now the question we have to face is, Was Judas a responsible agent in fulfilling this decree of God? We reply that he was. Responsibility attaches mainly to the motive and intention of the one committing the act. This is recognized on every hand. Human law distinguishes between a blow inflicted by accident (without evil design) and a blow delivered with 'malice aforethought.' Apply then this same principle to the case of Judas. What was the design of his heart when he bargained with the priests? Manifestly he had no conscious desire to fulfill any decree of God, though unknown to himself he was actually doing so. On the contrary, his intention was evil only, and therefore, though God had decreed and directed his act, nevertheless his own evil intention rendered him justly guilty as he afterwards acknowledged himself-"I have betrayed innocent blood." It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23), and that though "the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ" yet, notwithstanding it was but "for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by "wicked hands," not merely "human hands" that our Lord was "crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). "Wicked" because the intention of His crucifiers was only evil.

But it might be objected that if God decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and Gentiles should crucify Him they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they were not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it be emphatically said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: "That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure." Thus it is written, "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What we would here insist upon is, that God's decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men but the fore-determined and prescribed boundings and directings of men's sinful acts. In connection with the betrayal of Christ God did not decree that He should be sold by one of His creatures and then take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart and thus force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. No; not so do the Scriptures represent it. Instead, God decreed the act and selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not make him evil in order that he should perform the deed; on the contrary, the betrayer was a "devil" at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve (John 6:70), and in the exercise and manifestation of his own deviltry God simply directed his actions, actions which were perfectly agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked intentions. Thus it was with the Crucifixion." A.W. Pink from "The Sovereignty of God Chapter 8

I understand this does not apply to the exception of Adam, but it does help explain his descendants.
 
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Oct 21, 2003
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Before we get to Adam, let's read some more from Pink:

""Predestination we call the decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny: but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestinated either to life or to death"-from John Calvin's "Institutes" (1536 A. D.) Book III, Chapter XXI entitled "Eternal Election, or God's Predestination of Some to Salvation and of Others to Destruction."

We ask our readers to mark well the above language. A perusal of it should show that what the present writer has advanced in this chapter is not "hyper-Calvinism" but real Calvinism, pure and simple. Our purpose in making this remark is to show that those who, not acquainted with Calvin's writings, in their ignorance condemn as ultra-Calvinism that which is simply a reiteration of what Calvin himself taught-a reiteration because that prince of theologians as well as his humble debtor have both found this doctrine in the Word of God itself.

Martin Luther in his most excellent work "De Servo Arbitrio" (Free Will a Slave), wrote: "All things whatsoever arise from, and depend upon, the Divine appointments, whereby it was preordained who should receive the Word of Life, and who should disbelieve it, who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them, who should be justified and who should be condemned. This is the very truth which razes the doctrine of freewill from its foundations, to wit, that God's eternal love of some men and hatred of others is immutable and cannot be reversed."

John Fox, whose Book of Martyrs was once the best known work in the English language (alas that is not so today, when Roman Catholicism is sweeping upon us like a great destructive tidal wave!), wrote: "Predestination is the eternal decreement of God, purposed before in Himself, what should befall all men, either to salvation, or damnation."

The "Larger Westminster Catechism" (1688)-adopted by the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church-declares, "God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of His mere love, for the praise of His glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, hath elected some angels to glory, and in Christ hath chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof; and also, according to His own will (whereby He extendeth or withholdeth favor as He pleases), hath passed by, and foredained the rest to dishonour and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of His justice."

John Bunyan, author of "The Pilgrim's Progress," wrote a whole volume on "Reprobation." From it we make one brief extract:

"Reprobation is before the person cometh into the world, or hath done good or evil. This is evidenced by Romans 9:11. Here you find twain in their mother's womb, and both receiving their destiny, not only before they had-done good or evil, but before they were in a capacity to do it, they being yet unborn-their destiny, I say, the one unto, the other not unto the blessing of eternal life; the one elect, the other reprobate; the one chosen, the other refused." In his "Sighs from Hell," John Bunyan also wrote: "They that do continue to reject and slight the Word of God are such, for the most part, as are ordained to be damned."

Commenting upon Romans 9:22, "What is God willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," Jonathan Edwards (Vol. 4, p. 306 - 1743 A.D.) says, "How awful doth the majesty of God appear in the dreadfulness of His anger! This we may learn to be one end of the damnation of the wicked."

Augustus Toplady, author of "Rock of Ages" and other sublime hymns, wrote: "God, from all eternity decreed to leave some of Adam's fallen posterity in their sins, and to exclude them from the participation of Christ and His benefits." And again, "We, with the Scriptures, assert: That there is a predestination of some particular persons to life, for the praise of the glory of Divine grace; and also a predestination of other particular persons to death for the glory of Divine justice-which death of punishment they shall inevitably undergo, and that justly, on account of their sins."

George Whitefield, that stalwart of the eighteenth century, used by God in blessing to so many, wrote: "'Without doubt, the doctrine of election and reprobation must stand or fall together... I frankly acknowledge I believe the doctrine of Reprobation, that God intends to give saving grace, through Jesus Christ, only to a certain number; and that the rest of mankind, after the fall of Adam, being justly left to God to continue in sin, will at last suffer that eternal death which is its proper wages."

"Fitted to destruction" (Rom. 9:22). After declaring this phrase admits of two interpretations, Dr. Hodge-perhaps the best known and most widely read commentator on Romans-says, "The other interpretation assumes that the reference is to God and that the Greek word for 'fitted' has its full participle force; prepared (by God) for destruction." This, says Dr. Hodge, "Is adopted not only by the majority of Augustinians, but also by many Lutherans."

Were it necessary we are prepared to give quotations from the writings of Wycliffe, Huss, Ridley, Hooper, Cranmer, Ussher, John Trapp, Thomas Goodwin, Thomas Manton (Chaplain to Cromwell), John Owen, Witsius, John Gill (predecessor of Spurgeon), and a host of others. We mention this simply to show that many of the most eminent saints in bye-gone days, the men most widely used of God, held and taught this doctrine which is so bitterly hated in these last days, when men will no longer "endure sound doctrine"; hated by men of lofty pretentions, but who, notwithstanding their boasted orthodoxy and much advertised piety, are not worthy to unfasten the shoes of the faithful and fearless servants of God of other days." - A.W. Pink from SoG Chapter Five with a partial commentary of Romans Chapter 9
 
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Now to Adam, the following is not tied to an author, but I think it is by John Hendryx because he is the owner of the Mongergism site, and writes articles:

"Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

In the past week I have had several people ask me how Adam's original sin come about since he did not have a fallen nature to contend with. Thus it's not that Adam and Eve were originally prevented from obeying God due to a sinful nature, as we are now. Also since God is NOT the author of evil, didn't make Adam sin, nor did HE put the sinful desire within them, so the question is really how (or why) did Adam originally sin? This is really an attempt to understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and freewill in the beginning, prior to the fall.

By confession we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it; and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change." (WSF IV.2) This is to say that man was created in such a way where he was not yet sealed in righteousness as he will be in glory, but created with a an inclination toward good. Why evil temptation was able to overcome that inclination, the Scripture does not reveal, so any dogmatic response would be speculative. So while there are indeed mysteries that are not fully revealed to us in Scripture ... on the other hand, there are some things revealed that we do know and from these we can draw some conclusions.

Did God's Decree Bring About the Fall?

It is important that we first consider the alternative to God ordaining the fall event to show that it is really quite and untenable and unsustainable position. The truth of God's word is honored not in holding exclusively to one truth to the exclusion of another truth, but in believing the whole counsel of God. The Bible plainly teaches that man is responsible for the sin he commits and it also teaches that God is sovereign. You would be correct theologically to say that God is not the author of evil and that man alone is culpable for the sin he commits. You must also consider, however, that God is sovereign and has thus left nothing up to chance. That word "nothing" is a universal negative. For if chance were to exist then, of course, God would not be sovereign and thus, God would not be God.

God did not coerce Adam to commit sin and fall, but he certainly ordained it. Even an Arminian who thinks that God merely allowed the fall, must admit that before God created the world he already knew what the future would be, and so it was within his Providence for such events to take place, for he could just have easily decided to prevent the fall...but He didn't. But we believe that while God did not make man sin coersively he certainly ordained such events to occur. Consider that if God did not decree the fall then evil is something completely outside His sovereign control ... If evil came into the universe by surprise for God, totally apart from His providence, then there are some things He does not know or things He is powerless over and therefore God would, by definition, lack omniscience and omnipotence. And then how do we know whether He will be able to defeat evil in the future if evil is outside God's control even though the Scripture plainly says that God ordains all events that come to pass (Eph 1:11).

As for how it could be that God decreed the fall. Obviously it is ultimately for His glory. In it He showed to the angels and all creation His manifest wisdom, justice and mercy and all of His perfections. He does not operate people like puppets. Adam freely chose to rebel ... God did not coerce him... and now fallen men freely choose to reject Christ, apart from grace. You ask, how could God ordain evil? Well, let me give you a clear biblical example which shows that he does, so you don't think I am just blowing smoke.

Consider that Christ's crucifixion was a certainty which God planed in eternity and prophesied would come to pass in the Old Testament. But also consider that men would freely choose to crucify the Son of God. See Acts 2:23 which brings the two together -- "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." This concurrent series of events taking place simultaneously is called compatibilism, which is how the Scriptures really answer this question.

So God foreordained the most evil event in history, the crucifixion, yet He lays blame for it completely on the choice of godless men, according to this passage. You must embrace the teaching in the Scriptures that God ordained an innocent man's death at the hands of sinners, yet they freely did so because they wanted to. You may not understand how God works in such a way without coercion, but you must submit to the fact the the Holy Scripture, through and through, teaches this quite matter-of-factly. Why does God do this? Well, for one, after the crucifixion event we now begin to understand that Christ did this for the good of His people, though we may not have seen it at the time. Prior to His execution, the disciples were told by Jesus, "you do not now understand what I am doing" and even Peter tried to dissuade Him. However, God used evil for good and did so blamelessly.

There is a similar idea in Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

These Scriptures texts must be accepted as authoritative. Someone might argue that they were an exception ... but there is no biblical rationale for believing that. It must be admitted that the Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains evil events and remains blameless, events which include the self-determined choices of man.

God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28). (Piper)

In conclusion, when determining the truth of a matter we must never simply use naked unaided human logic, but always let our logic be ruled by the highest presupposition which is the Holy Scriptures. We may not like the result but what God has revealed, this we must embrace and teach. Otherwise we make God in our own image, and present to others a God other than the one who reveals Himself in Scripture." SOURCE
 
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janxharris

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First off, do you believe God decrees anything? If so, what?

Jesus' coming was predetermined. Acts 4:28; Daniel 9:25,26; Deuteronomy 18:15.

God foreknew men would rebel and sending his son was his graceful response.
 
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Did God allow the snake to talk to Eve, knowing what would happen if he did? Doesn't he know all possible futures?

Why did God not kill the snake the moment it came within 50 yards of Eve? Zap. Bye bye snake. No temptation, no fall.

Seems obvious that the fall was part of God's overall purpose.

God does foreknow, yes. God created angels with a free will.

Why do you think the fall was part of his purpose? I would think that God would have been very pleased if Adam and Eve had continued to be obedient. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
 
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Hammster

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Jesus' coming was predetermined. Acts 4:28; Daniel 9:25,26; Deuteronomy 18:15.

God foreknew men would rebel and sending his son was his graceful response.

So the rebelling of man was just something God foreknew? He was helpless in stopping it?
 
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God does foreknow, yes. God created angels with a free will.

Why do you think the fall was part of his purpose? I would think that God would have been very pleased if Adam and Eve had continued to be obedient. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Why create Satan? Why make a law about the tree? Why why allow Satan in the Garden? All of these things, if they hasn't happened, would have accomplished what you describe.
 
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