an argument for the salvation of all

[1213]

Any attempt to save people apart from accepting the Gospel flies in the face of the FACT that God demanded it be preached to the world. To say people are saved without it is to spit on the graves of the apostles and others who gave their lives to spreading the Gospel. One could call these foolish followers of Jesus and tell them you didn't have to do that as Jesus was going to save everyone anyway you can throw away the Bible, not preach anything not even mention Jesus ever existed in history and everyone gets saved....

People, who are righteous, don’t need salvation. Gospel is for those who have not been righteous. And as Jesus said, he came for those that are “sick”.

"Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Mark 2:17

As disciples of Jesus, our job is to preach his words. It is not vain, because it is good message that sin is forgiven and it can lead person to repent and become righteous.

If not all hear that message, they are not judged because they didn’t hear the message, they are judged because of unrighteousness.

Also I think it is good to notice that the judgment is this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

 

[Sophrosyne]

People, who are righteous, don’t need salvation. Gospel is for those who have not been righteous. And as Jesus said, he came for those that are “sick”.

"Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Mark 2:17

As disciples of Jesus, our job is to preach his words. It is not vain, because it is good message that sin is forgiven and it can lead person to repent and become righteous.

If not all hear that message, they are not judged because they didn’t hear the message, they are judged because of unrighteousness.

Also I think it is good to notice that the judgment is this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

How does one become righteous APART from Jesus? How many sins does it take to make one NOT righteous? The Bible says ALL have sinned does that mean ALL are NOT righteous on their own?

 

[1213]

How does one become righteous APART from Jesus?

At the moment t I don’t know. But I know that on basis of what Jesus says in the Bible, people can be counted as righteous, even if they have not heard Jesus.

How many sins does it take to make one NOT righteous?

It depend s on what sin means. I think it is possible to count one righteous, even if he has done mistake.

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

The Bible says ALL have sinned does that mean ALL are NOT righteous on their own?

It is possible that all doesn’t mean all possible people in all times.

 

[lutherangerman]

@DrBubbaLove, you make a long text but I find it ironic that the bible does not even say something like you said. It says nowhere that we get judged based on our choices. It says nowhere we are judged based on our works, not even our faith. The thing it says, however, is that God does not judge and that we should not judge. Religion has dug up this beast of scaring people with God, and that was wrong. It works, it makes people worry, it scares them away from what they maybe wrongly wanted to do. But the result is that people live in fear then. We cannot take the good Lord and scare people with Him. This good Lord was a pacifist and died on a cross rather than rule through force. Judgment is to judge matters and circumstances and sins and good deeds, not people. Jesus said his word will judge us, so he will speak again to us, because anytime God speaks, it is for our benefit.

 

[-57]

Lutherangerman, I noticed there was no biblical references in your opening post...only just what you thought.
Anyway, John 3:16 mentions non-believers will "perish". Doesn't that kinda squash your thought?

 

[-57]

I think we must believe in a heavenly court session after we die. Paul simply calls this the "judgment" but I don't think he simply means condemnation. In this court session we meet the risen Jesus Christ and he won't be going to waste his cross and his merciful love there. That means, we can plead for mercy in the heavenly court. The question is simply whether some evil people would actually want to live in hell and not in heaven, because the heavenly life is honest and good and pure, and evil people do not want that. I was once met by someone from hell in a kind of wake nightmare. He was so perverted and blasphemous. He was proof for me that God rejects nobody in the heavenly court, but that some choose to go to hell to do perversions there. That is the "damnation" the bible means, not that God damns or judges anyone (just like Jesus he wouldn't), but that some people don't want a part in salvation, not just in this life but also beyond.

There are two judgements. One for the lost and one for the saved. The lost will face the White Throne and the saved will take part in the Judgement seat or Bema seat as it is also called. The Bema seat is not a judgement of salvation....as those people are already saved...but rather a judgement of what you did for Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Lutherangerman, I noticed there was no biblical references in your opening post...only just what you thought.
Anyway, John 3:16 mentions non-believers will "perish". Doesn't that kinda squash your thought?

The word translated "perish" in John 3:16 is ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi does not necessarily mean what you think it does.

ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).


1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[-57]

The word translated "perish" in John 3:16 is ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi does not necessarily mean what you think it does.

ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

That's all well and good Der Alter....BUT...from the context you can know what "perish" means in this instance.
John 3:16 says...“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Perish in this instance is the opposite of eternal life. So, yes, it does mean what I think it does. You have to defend your argument by showing me how another nuance of "perish" better fits with John 3:16 rather than just supplying a list of uses of the word.

 

[Der Alte]

That's all well and good Der Alter....BUT...from the context you can know what "perish" means in this instance.
John 3:16 says...“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Perish in this instance is the opposite of eternal life. So, yes, it does mean what I think it does. You have to defend your argument by showing me how another nuance of "perish" better fits with John 3:16 rather than just supplying a list of uses of the word.

ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi in John 3;16 does not necessarily mean the opposite of "eternal life" but it definitely means something other than "eternal life." There are 3 Greek words translated "life" in the NT, zoe, bios, and psuche. "Zoe" is only used for eternal life.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy​

under two or three witnesses:
29 Of howmuch sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

[Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location(in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

@DrBubbaLove, you make a long text but I find it ironic that the bible does not even say something like you said. It says nowhere that we get judged based on our choices. It says nowhere we are judged based on our works, not even our faith. The thing it says, however, is that God does not judge and that we should not judge. Religion has dug up this beast of scaring people with God, and that was wrong. It works, it makes people worry, it scares them away from what they maybe wrongly wanted to do. But the result is that people live in fear then. We cannot take the good Lord and scare people with Him. This good Lord was a pacifist and died on a cross rather than rule through force. Judgment is to judge matters and circumstances and sins and good deeds, not people. Jesus said his word will judge us, so he will speak again to us, because anytime God speaks, it is for our benefit.

And supposedly the lack of Biblical support for your short assertion expressing the opinion that God puts us where we want to be in eternity and no one wants to be in a bad place is not ironic. Do tell. Because it is short or because you said it?

I was simpling point out the absurdity of the position against my summary of the orthodox view of the reality of the next life. Now you claim the Bible does not say there will be a Judgement (false) and suggest choice, especially free choice, has no bearing in Judging someone's actions in this life. Must be nice being able to spout opinions and make claims while only feeling the need to label as ironic someone suggesting those claims are very wrong. Am not scared, certainly not of you or your claim that my religion keeps me in line by scaring me.
I was once part of a group of Christians that very much thought nothing of attempting to scare people to the altar. Held bloody and graphic plays in the front of the Church meant to make people cry and get all emotional about what if that was me or my son in Hell. Am very much free from all that now and I also now know that even though done with a good intent (get someone saved) it was not a good thing for them to be doing. It is also not even representative of a large part of Christian practice and even for those I saw doing it represents an ignorance of even their own foundations. So no, I am not scared by my religion and I do not think most Christians are. Were you once Muslim perhaps?

The Good Lord did not die on the Cross because He or God are pacifist. He died for us because He had to give up His Life in order to make our salvation possible. That is an act of true love, not a demonstration of pacifism. The sins and deeds of people are the outcome of their choices. His Word Judges us because it is written on all our hearts, because He made us to know, love and serve Good. That is the reason we exist. Can God make something exist like that without writing that Word on it's heart so they could actually be what He made them to be?

That is how we all know what we should do and what we should not do, yet we fail both. Which means we are not "being" what we were made to be. Which allows our Just Creator to Judge our "being" what we were made to be or not. The "or not" part would be Him leaving what He made to love, know and serve God eternally unable to do so. So in a very real sense, He grants the existence, the "being" to such a person who demonstrated by their life here that such was their desire.
And yes that was long, but unlike unsupported claims/opinions made in reply - at least it makes sense both in itself and is congruent with what the orthodox say the Bible declares.

 

[-57]

Der Alter, I don't think the verse is a complicated as you make it.
My response was to Lutherangerman where is sounded like Lutherangerman is presenting a universalist view.
The point was the bible doesn't teach all people get saved.

 

[-57]

He grants the existence, the "being" to such a person who demonstrated by their life here that such was their desire.

DrBubbaLove, are you saying that what we do has a role in saving us? That doesn't sound right.
I have come to accept that people "demonstrated by their life" as a result of their salvation rather than a means of their salvation.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

DrBubbaLove, are you saying that what we do has a role in saving us? That doesn't sound right.
I have come to accept that people "demonstrated by their life" as a result of their salvation rather than a means of their salvation.

Am saying what we have done in this life is the only thing by which God will Judge where we spend the rest of eternity. ADDING - what we have done of course would include being sorry for and asking to forgive us of our sins - which certainly plays in that same Judgement.

In the RCC view were were "saved" at our Baptism. We are also being "saved". And He has also given us all the hope that we can end this life "saved" so that He can share His Eternal Happiness with those who do so.

I do not know what tomorrow brings. And if I even look at another sole thinking how horrible what they do and I don't, I have committed a sin already worthy of whatever Judgement would give that person. There but by His Grace go I - is the expression of how we should view sinners and ourselves. So no, do I think myself incapable of denying a Man before men that I have struggled to follow for most of my life?
No, I know I can fail. But rather than look at my potential of great failure as a weight dangling over my head ready to smash me, it represents a freedom in my knowing if I did ever fail, even badly, He still loves me and by that Love allows me to ask Him to forgive me no matter what I do - just as He did Saint Peter for denying Him before Him. Just as He forgave the man said to be a man after His own Heart after He committed adultery and murder. Why should I view myself differently or better than such people?

And yes I would say people that gave up their lives for three years and followed Him were certainly "saved" and being in His Presence all that time probably in a far better sense than most of us are "saved" (for the reading impaired "us" includes me).

 

[-57]

DrBubbaLoveAm saying what we have done in this life is the only thing by which God will Judge where we spend the rest of eternity. ADDING - what we have done of course would include being sorry for and asking to forgive us of our sins - which certainly plays in that same Judgement.

-57 John 3:18 tells us we are already condemned:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It is not by works that we are saved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

In the RCC view were were "saved" at our Baptism. We are also being "saved". And He has also given us all the hope that we can end this life "saved" so that He can share His Eternal Happiness with those who do so.

-57 The RCC might teach we are saved via Baptism....but I don't believe that. I don't really see it in the bible. In fact I can present several occasions where people were saved prior to being baptized.

I do not know what tomorrow brings. And if I even look at another sole thinking how horrible what they do and I don't, I have committed a sin already worthy of whatever Judgement would give that person. There but by His Grace go I - is the expression of how we should view sinners and ourselves. So no, do I think myself incapable of denying a Man before men that I have struggled to follow for most of my life?
No, I know I can fail. But rather than look at my potential of great failure as a weight dangling over my head ready to smash me, it represents a freedom in my knowing if I did ever fail, even badly, He still loves me and by that Love allows me to ask Him to forgive me no matter what I do

-57

Is this a forgiveness towards getting saved again or a forgiveness towards restoring broken fellowship with God?

- just as He did Saint Peter for denying Him before Him. Just as He forgave the man said to be a man after His own Heart after He committed adultery and murder. Why should I view myself differently or better than such people?

And yes I would say people that gave up their lives for three years and followed Him were certainly "saved" and being in His Presence all that time probably in a far better sense than most of us are "saved" (for the reading impaired "us" includes me).

-57 Even Judas Iscariot?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

-57John 3:18 tells us we are already condemned:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It is not by works that we are saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
-57 The RCC might teach we are saved via Baptism....but I don't believe that. I don't really see it in the bible. In fact I can present several occasions where people were saved prior to being baptized.

Is this a forgiveness towards getting saved again or a forgiveness towards restoring broken fellowship with God?

-57 Even Judas Iscariot?

Yes, We are all already condemned when born. He made so Baptism can fix that, but we are free to mess ourselves again. Just as Saint Peter is depicted doing the night He was betrayed and obviously had made that act right (to avoid being denied before God) when we next see the two talking again. So for Christians it is not a done deal, and many of Saint Paul's letters reinforce that concept.

Correct we are saved by Grace. But we to do something to recieve that free gift. Baptism is one and the start of the application of that Grace. But it is very wrong to think our Faith, which comes only from Him in the first place, subsequently requires nothing of us - good works are not only expected but should follow as our Faith grows.

Restore a broken relationship. Which we inherit from Adam from conception, so we all stand in need of restoration. We only disagree actually on the means of having that Grace applied to us and perhaps the permanence of it and probably how God views our sins, especially the sins we continue doing as Christians.

Yes, even Judas. Not that I am saying I would NOT be surprised to see him in Heaven. Am correctly stating that we cannot know what God knows, including what went through that man's head as He danced in mid air. In perhaps your terms or from my view more limited understanding, imagine him praying the sinners prayer in that instance. How could we know he did not?
And less you reply with the "better he not exist" quote, we should keep in mind that how he is depicted dying represents a great internal anguish - which by itself we too could reasonably comment I bet he wishes he had never been born - and had we lived before he died and after his bretraying Him as one of His disciples - we too could express thought gee I bet he wishes he had never been born. So it is not like I have to imagine him burning in Hell in order for such a quote to be true.

 

[lutherangerman]

I think you make the mistake of judging people, indirectly. Jesus made it a point that the Godhead does not judge humans. And he said we should not judge either. But we circumvent that command by saying God judges. How is that now? If we are not supposed to judge people, and God is not judging people, why do we create new judgments by telling people that God will judge them? It's the same in green. Same old thing. Judging and scaring people who may have done nothing wrong except their small mistakes and imperfections. And don't get me started on the being born and being condemned connection you propose, @DrBubbaLove . That is so wrong. God welcomes us into this world and life, he does not start with condemning us.

 

[-57]

Yes, We are all already condemned when born. He made so Baptism can fix that, but we are free to mess ourselves again.

That is not in the bible DrBubbaLove.

 

[2KnowHim]

2Co 5:14 For the love of the Christ constraineth us; judging this, that One died for all, then all died:
2Co 5:15 And that He died for all, in order that the living should no longer live unto themselves, but unto Him Which died for them, and rose again.

This is not a choice, this is something He did for All, we all have shared in His death, some just don't know it yet but they will.
1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That is not in the bible DrBubbaLove.

Neither is the word Trinity or all aspects of the Doctrine that Truth represents, yet many of us still believe in Faith (from God) that it is so. Help Thou my unbelief is certainly Scriptural, but you won't find the thought "our Faith comes from God and so is NOT blind" in the Bible either but it is still True. So what is the point?
That some believe Baptism is a meaningless as far as effect on our soul, and instead just act of either ritual or outward sign of agreement or outward sign of obedience that Christians should do is not in the Bible either - yet am willing to bet I just described a view that is at least close to your own. If not, it does not really matter as the Bible is not clear at all why we must be Baptized for salvation. Yet we do it or at least most of us do it properly. if held alone without the tradition from the Apostles (which is true with many of all our various beliefs) then you might have a point in saying Baptism does not make us Holy and that we still remain free afterwards to mess that up royally.

The Bible clearly says Saint John the Baptizer did what he did for the forgiveness of sins. And he is depicted doing that before he met the Baptizer outside of the womb at least. The disciples were directed and presumably obeyed in going out to baptize people for the forgiveness of their sins BEFORE Christ died. They are also later told to go and forgive peoples sins (or not which should beg more questions) which goes to assert that both Baptism and whatever one wants to think those disciples could choose to do or not do in the way of forgiving people sins, BOTH directives from God have some effect on the condemnation we earn for our sins. So am unclear why anyone would think my expression that both a proper Baptism and a proper forgiveness of sins are not only possible but supported by those same depictions in Scriptures just mentioned. That some disagree those Scriptures mean that, simply means we do not agree - it does not mean it has no Scriptural basis.