An argument for Evolution in the Bible

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So I've been wondering a lot how to stand my ground against Evolutionists and something that has bothered me from time to time is how little is recorded of anything Jesus had to say about it. Now, that is not a condemnation, we must accept that He said enough, but when you turn to the Bible, you expect to see an answer. So what does the Bible actually say?

Well, if you think about it, Ezekiel really makes the first claim in History that Man is equal with the animals.

Ezekiel 1:10 said:
As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle.

Note that this does not say Man "came from animals" just that as far as the status of Man is concerned, Man is not beneath or above animals, but rather the likeness of Man can be found wherever animals are found. This means that Evolution's claim that man "came from animals" and is therefore like them, is not original.

Second of all, note that the Bible talks in 2 Corinthians 5:21 about Jesus becoming sin. This is the first example in history of sin being equated with a man, as a whole and therefore we can conclude that it is the first indirect mention of mutation, in History. I say "indirect" because it does not explicitly say that Christ "mutated as a result of sin" but we can easily infer that when the whole body entered into sin, something went wrong. In any case, this is not the point (contrary to what Evolution teaches) because we go on to learn that Christ's resurrection enables us to become righteousness. Thus from sin, a solution to mutation emerges.

Thirdly, we have Paul's mention of us becoming a "new creature" (earlier, from the Greek ktisis sometimes translated as "creation")

2 Corithians 5:17 said:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

This clearly is the first mention in History of anyone making a transition to a new kind of species and it is with the distinction that the old life "passes away", distinct from Evolution which tells us, or rather tries to tell us, that we can transition to a new species even while holding on to the old life.

Lastly we have a revisitation in the book of Revelation to the concept revealed in Ezekiel of Man being equal with the animals.

Revelation 4:7-8 said:
The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"

So we see here that Man and animals work together as equals, again distinct from Evolution which says "once you evolve beyond the rest of the animal kingdom you are on your own". This being the first mention in History of animals working together with Mankind in an act of love for the One True God.

Interestingly you will notice that in looking at this I have put something backwards, I put 2 Corinthians 5:21 before 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is because I was trying to follow the Evolutionary model of mutation contributing to Evolution, to see where the truth lay, but it appears that God would rather say that the new creation comes first and then the old mutation falls away. This is contrary to pride and speaks of the Christian teaching that it is by faith that we overcome, not by works. Or to put it in terms of Evolution, it is by adaptation that we overcome, not by mutation.

This all goes to show us that the Bible has a very contrary understanding to Evolution and one that is prior to Evolution in terms of the time of discovery. This explains why Evolution takes a turn for the worse, when left to its own devices, subsequently suggesting that we "eliminate" those that cannot compete. Whereas the Bible says "each will be judged according to his own righteousness". But why does Evolution teach "eliminate" if not by saying "you are therefore the weakest of animals" as if to suggest that we did not know before that being said what manner of animal we would be? Is not the weakest of animals worthy of the most compassion?

So it is that there is definitely something wrong with the world's understanding both of what it is discovering and what it means. Because it remains Godless - as it will do (as long as it is of the world) - there is no real solution for this. Typically you would say "therefore let God show compassion on the weakest" or some such thing and remove the need to "eliminate" anything. Certainly you can not see the point in removing one of the living creatures of Revelation while they continue to sing unto God together, so I make my point. Where it will take them is anyone's guess, but for now, we can only hope that the old violence of man worshipping man does not reemerge for greater disaster.:thumbsup::D
 

Papias

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Two others you might be interested in:


Ecclesiastes 3:18-

I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts." For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath


And

Wisdom 19:19 -


For land creatures were changed into water creatures ………………………......………and those that swam went onto the land.

(Wisdom is a book from Catholic and other Bibles, not in the NIV.)


Papias
 
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Gottservant

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I think if you read Jesus' warnings about the abomination of desolation carefully, you will see that they relate directly to Evolution also. Not so much as a counter attack on the philosophy of Evolution, but direction as to how to live in a world that worships the state of affairs where they believe Evolution but not the Bible. I will explain.

Jesus says three things right:
  • let the worker in the field not go back for his tunic
  • let the preacher on the housetop not go inside for anything that is in his house
  • let those in Judea flee to the mountains

Now "what" is Evolution? It is a theory of the perdition of Creation, correct? And what is a man in the field, in perdition. So why should a man in the field not go back for his tunic? Because if the world is going into perdition and he comes back saying "I have a "new" way of working, now that I have my tunic" he will lose his momentum. Why? Because in a world of perdition, Jesus knows, they will already be saying that. And indeed what does Evolution say "We will become new creatures" (not "we are" but "we will", not of faith).

Furthermore "how" is Evolution? It works by mutation, correct? So what is the preacher on the housetop afraid of? Being confused with the world, or error: mutation. Thus if he goes into his household to get something, he looks like he has broken the message he is preaching. And what does Evolution preach? Mutation frees you to become something new, precisely what breaks the message, since there is no continuity with the messengers of God and the importance of believing in the one whom God has sent, precisely what Jesus said to do over and over again. So again, Jesus addresses something Evolution says is ok.

Furthermore "why" is Evolution? Evolution is because Charles Darwin wanted to prove that there was a means to how God worked, a mechanism, because with that mechanism in sight, one could ignore God, and if you can ignore God, you can ignore His children and if you can ignore His children you can ignore their rules, and if you can ignore their rules, you can attack them. So what does Jesus say? He says "if you are somewhere that is not safe, do what makes you safe". In other words, Jesus not only addressed the what and how of Evolution, he addressed the why of Evolution, that spreads beyond the theory and encroaches upon the lives of those who do not believe it. But you say "How are the children in danger from a theory?" indeed that is what they say, but scripture repeatedly tells us to guard our hearts, for if men believe the theory and not the children, how will the children survive? Yet no man believes the theory for long, in the absence of the love of his children.

So you see it is part of the trial we face, that men should put this theory first through the Door, instead of themselves, that when they go through the Door they may do as they please. Only those that guard against anything getting through the Door that should not will survive, this is a warning to all of us. For if one who has no love believes in Evolution, how shall those that have love not lose it without believing in Evolution, perhaps not completely, if they are wise or cunning, but all the same, they will. This is definitely the trial that we face, as I said.

Truth be known, it is not that hard to pass the test, if you are willing to be courageous, diligent and faithful, but it remains for those who have some success from this, to extend it to others, since not all are strong. The problem comes when you have some accepting compromise and weakness, as if it were no test at all, that is a great danger and we should be wary as Jesus said of "wolves in sheeps clothing" for who exchanging the Father's love for a cold dead theory is not a wolf? But let Wisdom tell you what to do, for it is enough that we be justified.

If we stand strong, Jesus has stood with us. :) :D
 
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Resha Caner

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So I've been wondering a lot how to stand my ground against Evolutionists and something that has bothered me from time to time is how little is recorded of anything Jesus had to say about it. Now, that is not a condemnation, we must accept that He said enough, but when you turn to the Bible, you expect to see an answer. So what does the Bible actually say?

I disagree with your premise here. You're presenting your position as if the Bible will answer any question we ask of it. That is not true. God is infinite and the Bible is finite. It's not that God answers every question, but that what He does tell us should be sufficient.

Starting off by assuming you're going to find an answer for/against evolution in the Bible is highly likely to produce a confirmation bias.
 
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Gottservant

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Hello GS, I'm sort of confused after reading your posts; please tell me straight, do you or do you not believe in 'Evolution'? Keep in mind that I'm not asking if you believe in the current Evolution theories but just plain 'evolution' without further defining it? Thanks :)

Evolution is wrong.

We did not come from monkeys. We do not change into something else. We are not vulnerable to mutations. If we adapt, it is because we inherit the truth from our parents and believe in it ourselves.

It is useful therefore, only as fiction.

Fiction is no substitute for the truth.
 
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Gottservant

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I disagree with your premise here. You're presenting your position as if the Bible will answer any question we ask of it. That is not true. God is infinite and the Bible is finite. It's not that God answers every question, but that what He does tell us should be sufficient.

If you have the Holy Spirit, you look for inspiration in scripture. Scripture doesn't have to be limited to the Bible, so your point is moot. You are quite correct that our expectations of the Bible are not perfect, but as you can see I am working within that frame of reference for the sake of argument. If you don't like that, I suggest you come up with some scriptures of your own (or testimony) and make an argument from there. Certainly Evolution on its own is insufficient to save the soul.

I hope we are in agreement on that last point.

Starting off by assuming you're going to find an answer for/against evolution in the Bible is highly likely to produce a confirmation bias.

Except that you contradict yourself even as you try to make the point, since if I am neither for nor against, then there will be no bias, will there? What it will do is mean that there is an overriding context for Evolution to be interpretted in the light of God, for good OR ill, which is the point of this exercise. If I am partial, I am partial to the INCLUSION of God who is Supremely INDIFFERENT to the whims and fancies of man and THEREFORE an EXCELLENT candidate for REMOVING CONFIRMATION BIAS. Or perhaps you believe in a different God.

But why should we argue? It is sufficient for you to interpret the parallels on their own merits and form your own conclusion. I have merely presented the closest possible scrutiny the Bible is able to show to the theory of Evolution. If that is a standard of some sort, then fine; if it is not, then do more.
 
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Resha Caner

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Certainly Evolution on its own is insufficient to save the soul.

I don't accept evolution if that's what you're asking, but I'm having a hard time following you from there. I started to ask for clarification on some things you said, but the list got to be quite long.

Even though I don't accept evolution, I would never think to challenge it as "insufficient to save the soul". Maybe it is, but only in the same way that shoes make an inadequate hat. IOW, evolution was never meant to save souls.

Except that you contradict yourself even as you try to make the point, since if I am neither for nor against, then there will be no bias, will there?

It was not a contradiction. I just didn't know your view, so I allowed for both possibilities. If you come to the Bible convinced evolution is true, I expect you will think the Bible supports evolution. If you come convinced it is false, I expect you will think the Bible shows it false. That is all I meant. Biases make it difficult to see the Bible for what it says of itself.

But why should we argue? It is sufficient for you to interpret the parallels on their own merits and form your own conclusion. I have merely presented the closest possible scrutiny the Bible is able to show to the theory of Evolution. If that is a standard of some sort, then fine; if it is not, then do more.

I don't mean to argue. I expressed a concern because I have seen people pull verses completely out of context and apply them in rather strange ways. It seemed you might be headed down that path. You seemed to use verses meant to show Christ as verses meant to debate science ... as if the Bible were merely a book for debating science when in fact I expect the philosophy of science is a somewhat trivial concern of God's.

Rather than argue, I would ask you 2 questions: 1) Can you briefly tell me why you think evolution is false? 2) Can you briefly tell me why it matters?
 
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Evolution is wrong.

We did not come from monkeys. We do not change into something else. We are not vulnerable to mutations. If we adapt, it is because we inherit the truth from our parents and believe in it ourselves.

It is useful therefore, only as fiction.

Fiction is no substitute for the truth.

There you go my friend, even after asking to not further define the evolution theory you turn and say that we were not evolved from apes, as if I'm suggesting it; Actually, I don't believe that we evolved from apes nor any slime but I do know that evolution is scientific and by denying it is to deny the Law of nature, which is all of the Law of God in all of His creations.

I believe that both sides are in error to some degree and this will cause most people to side entirely with one or the other and not both. We were created and we do evolve if there are changes in the human DNA but if all is perfect and the DNA codes are flawless then there are no diseases and deformities in the human nature, and this may be possible in God's people once translated. But this said, before the translation unto our new glorified bodies we will evolve and especially when there are so many pollutants and violations in human health and particularly in spirit.

I agree to disagree with you on many points even if I do agree with you on some others. Thanks :)
 
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Gottservant

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Rather than argue, I would ask you 2 questions: 1) Can you briefly tell me why you think evolution is false? 2) Can you briefly tell me why it matters?

This focuses the discussion nicely so I will focus on this, even though I have read both the above posts.

Evolution is false, because it proposes a mechanism by which order is assembled, but denies the natural conclusions of watching that mechanism in action. For example, it is self-evident that a species has the greatest advantage if its genome is of a fixed type, yet Evolution says "no, mutations mean the type can alter radically, without notice" this is false. Evolution is false. This and other similar observations point to the fact that it is false.

It matters because a worldview that is false obscures the light of the cross. Circumventing the past, in favour of perdition diminishes the value of the cross and subjecting honour to the indignity of humiliation without vision erases the significance of the cross. Without these things, a man dies. It therefore causes souls to perish, in lawlessness. The fact that a man can invent such a philosophy and deceive so many, when what it obscures is so good and wholesome is what is concerning. These are not law-abiding citizens that believe this lie, they are sinners, capable of anything (any lawless deed they put their mind to, the less that is on their mind, the easier it is for them to commit lawlessly).

Why you think I am "reading into things" is beyond me, but your opinion that the matter is trivial to God is noted.
 
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Resha Caner

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... it is self-evident that a species has the greatest advantage if its genome is of a fixed type ...

OK, but this isn't self-evident to me. I guess our issues with evolution differ.

Why you think I am "reading into things" is beyond me, but your opinion that the matter is trivial to God is noted.

I didn't want to be too direct in the beginning as it would probably appear rude. There are several issues here.

First, we are all sinners, yet God can redeem even the worst of us. Salvation does not depend on our righteousness or our works. Even if I am "right" about evolution, I am most definitely "wrong" about something else. My brother who is "wrong" about evolution, might be able to correct the thing where I am wrong. In other words, no one sin is worse than another. If one starts to preach Law in order to make people "right", one is obscuring the cross - one does the very thing you spoke against. The Law convicts so that people do not reject the grace God offers. Therefore, preaching the Law must be balanced by sharing the Gospel, and one should not be confused with the other.

So, the second issue is that you seemed to take verses out of context - verses meant for one thing you twisted to support your position. If a message about evolution isn't there, one should not try too hard to insert it. Let Scripture do its work, and don't try so hard to "help" it. Maybe God speaks so little on the subject of evolution because He thinks the Gospel message more important - more effective.

With all that said, I will note one caveat. God speaks truth, and so whenever he speaks about creation He will be consistent with the truth. Therefore, one can get a glimpse of whether evolution is true or false. I just don't think God dedicated much time to confirming or denying our philosophies. Were He to do that, the Bible would be 1000 times bigger and never mention the Gospel. It would be, as you say, obscured.

It matters because a worldview that is false obscures the light of the cross.

This I agree with, though I doubt all evolutionists share the same worldview. Still, what worldview are you thinking of?
 
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Gottservant

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I have not tried to make anything fit one way or the other, I have taken Evolution's basic tenets and tried to see which of them are reflected in the Bible, then, cautiously I have proposed that the future time of Jesus' prophesy and Evolution coincide, meaningfully given that warnings that He gives speak of a state of affairs that Evolution brings about. At no point have I said the Bible condemns Evolution, if anything I simply said the Bible is more original.

Now, the question of salvation is interesting, in that you think you can give it and Evolution equal relevance, this is not true. If you believe Jesus was born of a monkey descendent, and you have since evolved beyond His particular makeup the sacrifice made on the cross is insufficient though still relevant to a lesser degree. You are therefore watering down the gospel.

What annoys me, is that you advance both positions. I am "twisting scripture" and you are being "fair", when you have not looked for Evolution in the Bible, nor advanced scripture against doing so, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WOULD DO IF YOU WERE CONTRIBUTING TO THE DISCUSSION. I therefore conclude that you have been beguiled into a meaningless neutrality that Christ Himself would fart at (I mean that purely as a logical conclusion, not as an offence, as some fools would make it).
 
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Resha Caner

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say ... or even if post #13 was meant for me.

I didn't try to make evolution and salvation equal. It was you who brought it up, not me, and I pointed out that they are not equivalent - not even the same topic.

Further, I don't accept evolution and I didn't think you did either, so I don't see how any of those comments apply.

So, I don't understand what you want to accomplish. What do you want to accomplish? Why would you look for evolution in the Bible when you think it's false? Why would Jesus talk about it? Pegasus isn't real either. Should Jesus have talked about that? Where does it stop?

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're trying to do. My apologies that we couldn't find something to discuss, and I hope someone else will do a better job.
 
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Gottservant

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Your silences, interspersed with criticisms, say more than you think they do.

If you are not making Evolution and Salvation equal, why do you criticise me for looking for a response to Evolution in the Bible? Even if Evolution were just a matter of pride, I would find the answer in the Bible to be humble - that is where it "stops".

Innocence is not a defence when you say things that provoke me to question what am I doing for no reason.
 
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Your silences, interspersed with criticisms, say more than you think they do.

If you are not making Evolution and Salvation equal, why do you criticise me for looking for a response to Evolution in the Bible? Even if Evolution were just a matter of pride, I would find the answer in the Bible to be humble - that is where it "stops".

Innocence is not a defence when you say things that provoke me to question what am I doing for no reason.

Hi GS, I think that the various definitions of Evolution are interfering here; aside from what is being debated about evolution and what is being taught, I propose another thought that others are abandoning for certain reasons of their own understanding but I see a possibility in the evolution of humans through a supernatural affection that causes people to change over time, such as when God said that He will not contend with man any longer so God shortened our lifespan, and this should have come upon us as a gradual change over time, and I think it's by men's lifestyle changes by/through the influencing spirits.

I'm sure that we might be seeing this effect as people, these days are dying at early ages for heart attacks and other lifestyle related diseases. God allows these changes in our life so that it might work either way, I suppose. If we keep God's laws and statutes we might be granted longer lives through natural lifestyles and without man-made things that are killing us off, surely.

That's one example I wanted to present, and I imagine that there are more like this. Thanks :)
 
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Gottservant

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The point is Evolutionists were clearly not the first to envisage man and beast working together.

Let's see if you can debate that simple point.

I'm not losing it, I'm just mad that I typed all that stuff and you haven't quoted a single bit of it.
 
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Calminian

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Evolution is wrong.

We did not come from monkeys. We do not change into something else. We are not vulnerable to mutations. If we adapt, it is because we inherit the truth from our parents and believe in it ourselves.

It is useful therefore, only as fiction.

Fiction is no substitute for the truth.

Indeed. Evolution is just the personified god we call mother nature. It' a false idol just as is father time—the personified god of millions of years which you happen to embrace.

It's good, though, that you deny the idol of mother nature. The father time, idol, though, is much more destructive to theology.
 
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EternalDragon

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Gottservant, you are stretching those verses extremely too far.

The new creation it speaks of is spiritual, not physical.

The other verses are visions of angelic beings and things in heaven which we can't explain. It has nothing to do with evolution.
 
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