Amillenial Baptists?

[JM]

...still Amil!

https://amillennialism.wordpress.com/tag/sam-storms/

 

[JM]

If you have the time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCnM_VtYeq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SpOBSkIjHQ

 

[Don Maurer]

Concerning the video of Sam Storms....I cannot load video's at this exact moment, but I think I know the video of Storms in the link above. While it has the Youtube URL, it can also be found on Piper's web site. He has Storms representing A-Mil, Doug Wilson as the Post-Mil, and I forget who the historic pre-mil was. I really should watch that video again.

Concerning the OP.... Before the advent (excuse pun) of dispensationalism, the majority of Baptists in the USA were A-Mil and they were regular baptists. There were some general baptists, but they were fewer in number. There were also some Post Mil and Historic Pre-Mils among them. Eschatology did not interfere with fellowship among those baptists. Somehow as dispensationalism grew, the definition of the term "baptist" and "dispensationalism" became next to synonymous in some peoples minds. For some reason, Baptists became Arminian and Dispensational. I suspect that some of this trend was due to the fact that some dispensationalists wanted to form a different soteriology. The different soteriology never really became firm. Many at Dallas remained 5 point Calvinists.

The idea that the two (Baptists and Dispensationalists) must go together began to fall apart beginning in the 1960s as the "Reformed Baptist movement began. Dispensationalism also had a set back in the 1980s when it fragmented. Some former old school dispensational schools moved toward progressive dispensationalism. Such schools as Dallas and Talbot had people writing books supporting progressive dispensationalism. I purchased and red the book by Saucy called "Progressive Dispensationalism, the Interface between dispensationalism and covenant theology." I find that movement very interesting. Dispensationalists have begun to wrestle with the question of why Covenants given to Israel in the OT are being applied to gentile believers in the NT. Nevertheless, my point is that the fragmentation of dispensationalism has brought more Baptists to move toward Covenant Theology.

Well, gotta go

 

[JM]

My guess, based on reading the old commentaries, most Baptists were Postmil or optimistic Amil…and Historicist. Preterism and Futurism took a while to filter into confessionally solid Baptist conventions but they did. Both positions, Preterism and Futurism, were first postulated in systematic form by Jesuits who admitted they were seeking ways to take the heat off the Pope who has consistently been identified as “antichrist.” Postmil/Amil Historicism was referred to as “The Protestant eschatology.”

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

 

[Skala]

Are there any amillenial Baptists?

Plenty
I'm one of them

 

[JM]

I've moved to a more optimistic Amil position.

 

[JM]

Free commentary from a Postmil perspective : https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...7DKlxYAbBYfTXZ09Q&sig2=Y0bRJvgWb4wncNYNUNzkzA

I see plenty of overlap between Amil and Postmil, not to mention valid criticisms made by the author toward Premil, so I wanted to share it.

jm

 

[classicalhero]

ne thing I do like about this position is that they take a poetic verse way out of it's context to make the clear thousand years into any thing they want it to be. But if they were consistent then the thousands years would be forever, since the poetic verse speaks of a thousand hills in a metaphoric sense mean an indefinite number of them, but they don't apply that same meaning to the thousand years.

 

[JM]

Is Satan a spiritual being? Was the chain a physical chain? Can something like Satan and a the chain that was used to bind him be literal and not physical?

 

[crixus]

Yes - I'm one....

Me too!

 

[classicalhero]

Is Satan a spiritual being? Was the chain a physical chain? Can something like Satan and a the chain that was used to bind him be literal and not physical?

Satan will have to be bound somehow. We are talking about here about a time in the future where God judges everyone and Satan; Satan's judgement will be real and he will literally be bound and chained for that time. The event happens when God is judging those, but don't forget that God is a Spirit, thus God can judge Spiritual beings as well as physical beings.

 

[JM]

Satan will have to be bound somehow. We are talking about here about a time in the future where God judges everyone and Satan; Satan's judgement will be real and he will literally be bound and chained for that time. The event happens when God is judging those, but don't forget that God is a Spirit, thus God can judge Spiritual beings as well as physical beings.

Not everyone believes in Futurism. (See Jesuit futurism)

My point was this, a prophecy can be fulfilled literally without being fulfilled physically. If a spiritual being can be bound with a spiritual chain then we can conclude the 1,000 years of Revelation could be fulfilled spiritually as well.

 

[Hammster]

1000 doesn't need to mean an infinite amount. It can, I suppose. But it seems to me to just mean a large number.

 

[DawnStar]

I am also amillenial

 

[JM]

Anyone lean toward Postmil? I find I do. Once I shed my Premil pessimism and moved toward Amil optimism I can see how Postmil and Amil were once one system.

 

[JM]

A quote below from : Fide-O Blog

Dr. John Walvoord, a dispensational premillennialist, admitted, "Reformed eschatology has been predominantly amillennial. Most if not all of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation were amillennial in their eschatology, following the teachings of Augustine." (Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan.-Mar., 1951)

According to Blue, "amillianism is not established beliefs or customs, well imagine that I did use the word correct and its why my school a baptist school training baptist pastors teaches it is a Heresy."

Wowzers. Bluelion wrote that his "school a baptist school training baptist pastors" taught that most Baptists where teaching heresy. I would contend that Blue's school doesn't know what they are talking about.

Just to name a few Amillenarians and a couple of the many like-minded Postmillers:

Jay Adams
Oswald Allis
Augustine of Hippo
Richard Barcellos
Herman Bavinck
G. K. Beale
Louis Berkhof
G. C. Berkouwer
James P. Boyce
John Calvin
B. H. Carroll
Everett I Carver
Adam Clark
William Cox
John L. Dagg
Mark Dever
J. Ligon Duncan III
David Engelsma
Eusebius of Caesarea
Sinclair Ferguson
John Frame
Richard Gaffin, Jr.
William Grier
Henry Halley
Floyd Hamilton
Hank Hanegraaff
William Hendriksen
Charles Hill
Herschel Hobbs
Anthony Hoekema
Michael Horton
Lee Irons
Dennis Johnson
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Tim Keller
Simon Kistemaker
Meredith Kline
Abraham Kuyper
Martin Luther
C. J. Mahaney
William Masselink
Phillip Mauro
Edward McDowell
Melancthon
Leon Morris
Edgar Mullins
George L. Murray
Iain Murray
John Murray
J. I. Packer
Albertus Pieters
A. W. Pink
Vern S. Poythress
Richard Pratt
Robert S. Rayburn
Herman Ridderbos
Kim Riddlebarger
Jason E. Robertson
O. Palmer Robertson
William Rutgers
L. R. Shelton
Sam Storms
Robert Strimple
Augustus H. Strong
Ray Summers
Cornelius Van Til
Cornelis Venema
Geerhardus Vos
Samuel Waldron
Bruce Waltke
B. B. Warfield
James White
Knox White
Martin Wyngaarden
E. J. Young
Huldrych Zwingli

Council of Ephesus, 431
Confession of the Evangelical Free Church of Geneva, 1848
The Westminster Confession of Faith, 1647
The London Baptist Confession, 1689
The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833
Confession of the Free-Will Baptist, 1834
The Augsburg Confession

 

[Bluelion]

A quote below from : Fide-O Blog

Dr. John Walvoord, a dispensational premillennialist, admitted, "Reformed eschatology has been predominantly amillennial. Most if not all of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation were amillennial in their eschatology, following the teachings of Augustine." (Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan.-Mar., 1951)

According to Blue, "amillianism is not established beliefs or customs, well imagine that I did use the word correct and its why my school a baptist school training baptist pastors teaches it is a Heresy."

Wowzers. Bluelion wrote that his "school a baptist school training baptist pastors" taught that most Baptists where teaching heresy. I would contend that Blue's school doesn't know what they are talking about.

Just to name a few Amillenarians and a couple of the many like-minded Postmillers:

Jay Adams
Oswald Allis
Augustine of Hippo
Richard Barcellos
Herman Bavinck
G. K. Beale
Louis Berkhof
G. C. Berkouwer
James P. Boyce
John Calvin
B. H. Carroll
Everett I Carver
Adam Clark
William Cox
John L. Dagg
Mark Dever
J. Ligon Duncan III
David Engelsma
Eusebius of Caesarea
Sinclair Ferguson
John Frame
Richard Gaffin, Jr.
William Grier
Henry Halley
Floyd Hamilton
Hank Hanegraaff
William Hendriksen
Charles Hill
Herschel Hobbs
Anthony Hoekema
Michael Horton
Lee Irons
Dennis Johnson
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Tim Keller
Simon Kistemaker
Meredith Kline
Abraham Kuyper
Martin Luther
C. J. Mahaney
William Masselink
Phillip Mauro
Edward McDowell
Melancthon
Leon Morris
Edgar Mullins
George L. Murray
Iain Murray
John Murray
J. I. Packer
Albertus Pieters
A. W. Pink
Vern S. Poythress
Richard Pratt
Robert S. Rayburn
Herman Ridderbos
Kim Riddlebarger
Jason E. Robertson
O. Palmer Robertson
William Rutgers
L. R. Shelton
Sam Storms
Robert Strimple
Augustus H. Strong
Ray Summers
Cornelius Van Til
Cornelis Venema
Geerhardus Vos
Samuel Waldron
Bruce Waltke
B. B. Warfield
James White
Knox White
Martin Wyngaarden
E. J. Young
Huldrych Zwingli

Council of Ephesus, 431
Confession of the Evangelical Free Church of Geneva, 1848
The Westminster Confession of Faith, 1647
The London Baptist Confession, 1689
The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833
Confession of the Free-Will Baptist, 1834
The Augsburg Confession

I am reading a current book from John walvoord for a current class. I been a baptist all my life and lived all over the country and never once heard of amillianism until my school taught it as false doctrine. again I would ask for your degree in the field from a Baptist college?

You know Calvinist claim they are the majority in the Baptist church while we study John Calvinist we do not follow all his teachings. Question are any of these men in the Bible? Why are you quoting men care to go to God to see what He says?

 

[JM]

Hey Blue, theology isn't democratic, meaning just because a most Baptists are Dispey Premil doesn't mean they are correct. I know most North American Baptists reject Amil but that doesn't mean Amil is wrong, especially considering the history of the doctrine.

Blue, Particular Baptists are a raising minority among Baptists...we all know and recognize that.

Have a good weekend.

 

[JM]

For about 1500 years Postmil and Amil were consider one view.

A brief outline by Francis Nigel Lee:

The order of these prophesied events, is clear. That, in turn, helps us better to understand their character. After first understanding when, we can better understand what....

First, Jerusalem would fall to the (Roman) Gentiles in 70 A.D. At that time, the Judaists would largely be annihilated.

Second, that would be followed by the "time of the Gentiles." During this time -- as we are informed elsewhere in Scripture (Rom 11:25) -- the "fullness of the Gentiles" comes into Membership of the Christian Church, while part of the Judaists alias ethnic Israel remains spiritually blinded.

Third, this treading down of Jerusalem by Gentiles would terminate when "the times of the Gentiles" would be fulfilled. This fulfilment will take place, when the Deliverer Jesus Christ will be preached with great success by the largely-Gentile Christians alias the true Zion. Thus the Church preaches Christ also to ethnic Israel alias the unconverted Jews -- and increasingly so. In this way, Christ "shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" alias ethnic Israel (Rom 11:25f) -- and christianize also the Jewish Nation.

Fourth, this conversion of the Jews as a People will then be followed by a time of universal blessing - in Christ for both Gentiles and Jews. During that time, "all Israel shall be saved" -- that is, both Jews and Gentiles. "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, so that He might [in the future] have mercy upon all [Jews and Gentiles]." (Rom 11:30-32)

Fifth, this will then ultimately be followed by the end of World History. For "then shall they see the Son of man coming on a cloud -- with power and great glory." (Luke 21:27) O Christian, the Kingdom of God shall yet be extended to both Gentiles and Jews! Even hardened ethnic Israel shall yet be saved! For God shall "have mercy upon all!" Luke 21:24f cf. Romans 11:23-32.

After 70 A.D., the Gospel would unfold ever more widely and powerfully -- and ultimately be promulgated to all the Nations in the World. Also before but especially after the destruction of the wicked Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Son of man sends forth His Angel-Messengers like the sound of a great trumpet to gather His elect from the four corners of the Earth. Matthew 24:30-35 & 26:64 cf. Psalm 22:27 & Isaiah 45:22f & Revelation 14:6f.

For the Gospel gradually subdues the raging seas of the Heathen Nations, and will finally cause their Leaders to fall down from their pagan heights before Jesus -- like shooting stars. Gradually, the Gospel thus makes wars to cease, and international peace to increase. (Mark 13:24f, per contra 14:4-14) (end quote)

Yours in the Lord,

jm