Amil Theory/Preterist theory

[shturt678s]

Are scriptures not the Word of God?

As in the original inerrant, infallible, and inspired Autographs, yes! Translated Bibles = / = Scriptues, ie, however great aides in understanding the Scriptures.

We are judged, but by what standard? That standard is Jesus Christ, the man he was, who was perfect.

I thought we were judged by our works, Rev.20:12-13, "...judged...according to their works." this is the standard, correct? Unless Revelation wasn't inspired in the original?

Old Jack

 

[Shocker]

As in the original inerrant, infallible, and inspired Autographs, yes! Translated Bibles = / = Scriptues, ie, however great aides in understanding the Scriptures.



I thought we were judged by our works, Rev.20:12-13, "...judged...according to their works." this is the standard, correct? Unless Revelation wasn't inspired in the original?

Old Jack

Im saying, what are our works contrasted against to determine there value/detriment?

righteousness.

That is Christ Jesus, who is God, and God is perfect, is he not?

 

[shturt678s]

Interesting.. So if the Jews build a 3rd temple, and a man stands in it and declares himself God of this world, then you wont recognize it because it already happened in a "spiritual" way.

Did someone tell you that or have you simply come to understand this by reading the bible?

My view stands or falls on whether naos = ieron in the N.T.? "Sanctuary" = "Temple" Or it doesn't, ie, my view: naos = "Sanctuary" = / = ieron

Find one place grammatically or contextually in the N.T. where naos = "Temple" (ieron) with its four courtyards, the Sanctuary (naos) within (Most Holy Place and Holy Place), and the rest of the Temple building,s complex and I'll recant. That simple.

Simple old Jack

btw all that I understood was garbage until I bumped in the older Lutheran 'works' in English and High German (Commentaries and Sermons, etc.) from M. Chemnitz (1560 or so) and all between to about 1918 when the Lutherans began going down hill, ie, I'm non-modern ELCA pre-1930 union that corruptted everything. I have the gift of only summarizing their works in my posts, ie, I have nothing to less than nothing.

 

[Shocker]

My view stands or falls on whether naos = ieron in the N.T.? "Sanctuary" = "Temple" Or it doesn't, ie, my view: naos = "Sanctuary" = / = ieron

Find one place grammatically or contextually in the N.T. where naos = "Temple" (ieron) with its four courtyards, the Sanctuary (naos) within (Most Holy Place and Holy Place), and the rest of the Temple building,s complex and I'll recant. That simple.

Simple old Jack

btw all that I understood was garbage until I bumped in the older Lutheran 'works' in English and High German (Commentaries and Sermons, etc.) from M. Chemnitz (1560 or so) and all between to about 1918 when the Lutherans began going down hill, ie, I'm non-modern ELCA pre-1930 union that corruptted everything. I have the gift of only summarizing their works in my posts, ie, I have nothing to less than nothing.

Forget being a Lutheran on here, you are a Christian first right?

I don't pay any mind to the beliefs in each of the sects of Christianity, they each hone in on individual doctrines and build their "churches" around that principle foundation.

Baptists have the baptism doctrine, Pentacostals have the gifts doctrine, ect..


Its better imo to forget what you know and let the Bible replace that doctrine with its truth, not theirs.


I think the true Church will emerge before its all said and done, one without walls or buildings..


There is a reason I cant attend a Lutheran Church, same with Baptist or any other church that claims specificity in a few areas of scripture while not adhering to the entirety of the Bible..

The message of the Gospel was in fact taught in the OT, for those who are looking for it..

 

[Notrash]

Yes, its does...

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The Prophecy would state that this happened during the 70th week, but it doesn't.

Both events happened 40 years apart. (crucifixion/2nd temple

If it happened, show me. Show me the false prophet.

You need evidence that is empirical, like the absence of a 2nd temple for example, no one can deny that happened.

Like the word "CAUSE" in vs 27, the phrase "who is to come" indicates the items mentioned in the second half of the verse are outside the 70th week.

Vs 26 & 27 are in a stanza of hebrew paralellism. Become 'learned' by researching that on your own.

In order to see the false prophet, the man of sin, the son of perdition etc, you need to find the man of righteousness and faith, the true prophet (prophecy now fufilled); and the men of character and subordinate understanding (and freedom) in the King. When they were approved, the men of sin, the false prophets etc were revealed.


Evidence and words cannot show or teach one of what they are unwilling or presentðy unable to believe or recieve. If your questionsabout Dan 9 and thes other things were sincere, you would ha e looked at the explanation referred to on Dan 9.

 

[Notrash]

In regards to a universal preterist interpretation and understanding, individuals are stilð at a progressive growth out of what they may have been indoctrinated into, or being pressured into pre-mature declarations of interpretations by demands fromþnaysayers.

One issue of difference between preterist and other views of eschatology "and perhaps soteriology and life is that of hermeneutics, understanding the covts. and laws of previpus states of men in the progressive revelation of the truth of and GOOD will of the lifemaker.

Personally, I view all the prophets of the mosaic covt period as being prophets TO the people of that temæorary mosaic covt and of the time of restoration FROM that covt (book of deut) to the adopted good children of the creator through faith in the authority and exampæe during his coming. The mosaic covt including its prophesied latter end (of that age) were outlined in the book of Deuteronomy. The prophets following him thus generally fit in the time and situations alloted for and ærophecied during the time alotted in that book. It was placed in the Ark as a testimony AGAINST that way.

I view the mosaic covt as a corporal and embelished repeat of the stipulative, conditional blessing if the original garden. Thus Christ nailed both laws to the tree and gave life and gifts through the law of faith (rom 3:27-31)

The mosaic covt ended with the enactment if the new covt and after a 40 time of patience to save those who would otherwise perish in judea,christ administered the latter end that was prophecied in deut 32. There was also a second honor (is 61:15-17) prophecied in Isaiah and elsewhere and along with the Gog/Magog war, I believe extended the judgement to thise from the northern tribes who had left during the assyrian conquest and under Bar Kochbah attempted to gather under a false messiah which was to the san-hedrains goals and false interpretations.

The narratives of the Gospels, the ACTS and the epistles are within the time frame of the first century events and are best understood through that lens. The revelatiin was a shott term prophecy and contained alot of allusiins and associations to events and prophets of Israels past, thereby addressing the judgement that had been prophesied in lev 26; deut 18:19; deut 32; and throughout the prophets since samuel.

One prooftext that the Rev pertained to these events is rev 15:3 which says tat they sang the song of the lamb and the song of moses. The song of Moses is deut 32 and pertains to that latter end judgement on the disobedient to faith in christ and the leaving of the mosaic covt and its leaders from that generatiin.

One rule of interpretatiin that the futurist camp doesn't seem to respect or know is that a literary document is only understood from the time perspective and people group from when and to whom it was written.

Perhaps that help, and perhaps not. The difference that allows the fulfilled understanding is partly justificatiin by faith in the GOOD lifemaker and then in rationable, reasonable hermeneutis and understanding of the covts as mentiined above....

 

[ebedmelech]

We know from history that the believing Jews became Christians, and martyrs.

The rest of the Jews have been handing down their beliefs ever since..

These are the Orthodox Jews who existed over 2000 years scattered around the world.. The fact they exist at all with no homeland itself is a work of God.

All good comes from the Lord..

This is not at all the point Shocker. The point Jesus is making in saying the kingdom would be taken from Israel, is because they broke the covenant!

Has nothing to do with orthodox Jews, because the apostles as well as all Jews saved on Pentecost are of the remnant God is saving in Romans 11:1-5.

What's really going on is the blindness that God has given them, also spoken of in Romans 11.

The scripture is pretty straight forward about it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The trouble with your fancy theory, is that these "orthodox" Jews today are all descended from Gentiles who converted to Talmudic Judaism in the 7th-10th centuries, and have no genetic relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew People.

The Khazar theory? Really?

Firstly, genetics really don't have anything to do with "Jewishness"; but more importantly genetic studies in fact prove the whole Khazar theory nonsense to be just that--nonsense.

Yes, the tribal and clan leaders of the Khazars converted to Judaism, but at that time there were established Jewish communities throughout Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Persia, Arabia, and India. All adherents of Rabbinic Judaism, the form of Judaism which evolved out from Pharisaism following the fall of the Temple, the extinction of the Sadducees, and the reorganization of Jewish life and practice around the synagogue, resulting in the writing down of the Mishnah and collecting and compiling the commentaries of the rabbis into the Gemara in the centuries following.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Shocker]

What's really going on is the blindness that God has given them, also spoken of in Romans 11.

The scripture is pretty straight forward about it.

This is essentially where I am in my understanding..

I think we agree on this..

 

[Shocker]

Like the word "CAUSE" in vs 27, the phrase "who is to come" indicates the items mentioned in the second half of the verse are outside the 70th week.

Vs 26 & 27 are in a stanza of hebrew paralellism. Become 'learned' by researching that on your own.

In order to see the false prophet, the man of sin, the son of perdition etc, you need to find the man of righteousness and faith, the true prophet (prophecy now fufilled); and the men of character and subordinate understanding (and freedom) in the King. When they were approved, the men of sin, the false prophets etc were revealed.


Evidence and words cannot show or teach one of what they are unwilling or presentðy unable to believe or recieve. If your questionsabout Dan 9 and thes other things were sincere, you would ha e looked at the explanation referred to on Dan 9.

Ive studied Daniel 9, and contrasted it with the events that are claimed to be the fulfillment, and preterists have more than a few theories to explain it, I just don't find them biblically sound, given the nature of prophecy when its fulfilled, every detail described must be fulfilled as stated.

Its really not that hard when you start looking for the evidence but find nothing.

 

[Notrash]

Ive studied Daniel 9, and contrasted it with the events that are claimed to be the fulfillment, and preterists have more than a few theories to explain it, I just don't find them biblically sound, given the nature of prophecy when its fulfilled, every detail described must be fulfilled as stated.

Its really not that hard when you start looking for the evidence but find nothing.

Thanks for agreeing that the events were prophesied ti be outside of the 70 th week but come after and be cahsed by the efective estabkishment of "THE COVENANT" by Chrust and within the apostles.


As you agreed a.d pointed out, the temple fe in 70 AD, after and caused by the new words and new covenant of 27-33 AD.

 

[parousia70]

Interesting.. So if the Jews build a 3rd temple, and a man stands in it and declares himself God of this world, then you wont recognize it?

And If Iran Nukes Jerusalem in the next couple of years and renders it uninhabitable for hundreds of years, you won't recognize it?

Why don't you dispense with hurling out the "What if's , could be's & might happens" and get back to me when your future boogie-man actually stands in the as yet non existent but always "soon coming" 3rd temple and does his best Leo DeCaprio "I'm king of the world" happy dance....

Clap along if you feel like a room without a roof

 

[parousia70]

The Khazar theory? Really?

Firstly, genetics really don't have anything to do with "Jewishness"

Yet genetics have everything to do with the Levitical priesthood, and since no "Jew" alive today can trace their ancestry with any kind of objective proof to Aaron, no Jew alive today can meet the requirements of the Law to become a Temple Priest.

This is no accident. This was ordained by God to be the case today, furthur affirming that turning back to the Law, and temple, and animal sacrifices for atonement of sins is NO LONGER part of His redemptive plan for Humanity, for He rendered such a modern day turning IMPOSSIBLE.

Yes, the tribal and clan leaders of the Khazars converted to Judaism,

Tell that to my little buddy Shocker-Vrba, who says converting to Judaism is impossible.

All adherents of Rabbinic Judaism, the form of Judaism which evolved out from Pharisaism following the fall of the Temple, the extinction of the Sadducees, and the reorganization of Jewish life and practice around the synagogue, resulting in the writing down of the Mishnah and collecting and compiling the commentaries of the rabbis into the Gemara in the centuries following.

In other words, the Cult of the Talmud.
Talmudic Rabbinic Judaism and Biblical Mosaic Judaism are as far apart as fire and Ice.

 

[shturt678s]

Forget being a Lutheran on here, you are a Christian first right?

I can forget about being a Lutheran, however I cannot forget about the "Book of Concord" (1580) compiled by J. Andreae and M. Chemnitz, ie, secondary to the Scriptures of course.

I don't pay any mind to the beliefs in each of the sects of Christianity, they each hone in on individual doctrines and build their "churches" around that principle foundation.

Translated Bibles are the root cause due to their interpretative nature by default.

Baptists have the baptism doctrine, Pentacostals have the gifts doctrine, ect..


Its better imo to forget what you know and let the Bible replace that doctrine with its truth, not theirs.

After a lot of self sacrificing, and used up my G.I. Bill long ago, after graduation, I went through months of depression as I could see the truth mixed with errors even in the essentials, ie, took my large library and dumped allll into a dumpster thus I did forget what I knew, and painfully started all over again except came away with the ancient langauges..

I think the true Church will emerge before its all said and done, one without walls or buildings..

There is a reason I cant attend a Lutheran Church, same with Baptist or any other church that claims specificity in a few areas of scripture while not adhering to the entirety of the Bible..

The message of the Gospel was in fact taught in the OT, for those who are looking for it..

I normally don't bother anymore, however since you do really care, ie, one of a few good things I did come away with my academical schooling was always interpret the Word going from the ancient languages FORWARD to the English, ie, and not BACKWARDS as pervasively done today. This narrows the scope of diverse interpretations where one has least a crack at the one valid contextual interpretation.

Old Jack

 

[Old Timer]

And yet after all that you can't tell the difference between the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

[Old Timer]

I know I know..

Satan is bound and the nations are not deceived..

Gee, I wonder who might want us to believe that..

Duh

 

[parousia70]

I know I know..

Satan is bound and the nations are not deceived..

Gee, I wonder who might want us to believe that..

Flip Wilson? - oh wait.... he'd be the one who would want us NOT to believe that.

 

[Old Timer]

Flip Wilson? - oh wait.... he'd be the one who would want us NOT to believe that.

..it's the same ones who duped you into believing it's all in the past.

 

[parousia70]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaiLcwHXB4

 

[John S]

Is Flip Wilson still alive?