Altar Rail Returning to Use

TheDude28

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Most Lutheran Churches probably 90% have Altar rails as do Anglican and Methodist Churches one of the few mainline churches that doesn't are the Catholics. Which I have never understood because they have the highest belief in the Eucharist via transubstantiation. I guess its just more fall out from the rediculous Vatican II council that tried to change the Church into a worldly orginization instead of changing the world.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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Not all Roman Catholic churches jettisoned the altar rails. I've been to a few that retained or had them put in. However, that being said, they are few and far between. And yes, there is a faithful remnant of pious Catholics amongst the worldly-minded "tares." There always is, in every age.
 
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ebia

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TheDude28 said:
Most Lutheran Churches probably 90% have Altar rails as do Anglican and Methodist Churches one of the few mainline churches that doesn't are the Catholics. Which I have never understood because they have the highest belief in the Eucharist via transubstantiation. I guess its just more fall out from the rediculous Vatican II council that tried to change the Church into a worldly orginization instead of changing the world.

You've read the Vatican II texts?

I'm guessing not, but either way a guest did no ought to be making derogatory comments about a Council of the Catholic Church.
 
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Fantine

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After I had my first child, I was always aghast at the bizarre postures contained in the Nativity scene.

Mary had just given birth in a barn, and Joseph had just walked 70 miles, leading a donkey and his pregnant wife, only to have to be an emergency midwife.

And there they were, kneeling in front of the manger....

(As if the baby Jesus were more comfortable in the manger than He would have been in His mother's arms...)

If I could find a more realistic nativity set, I would use it (I do have a few depictions that are more realistic, sans the animals, shepherds, et al.)

But perhaps the whole moral of that is this:

Where reverence and common sense collide, use common sense.
 
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AMDG

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Believe me, I've slept through nights holding a baby in my arms. It's not comfortable. The manger would be more like a bassinet. (What could be more natural than putting the swaddled baby in a bassinet?) And animals were used to warm the family in the colder weather. According to one article I read (so long ago that I don't even remember the name of the magazine it was in), often even the wealthy would include a section separate from the family for the animals so the family would use the animal's warmth to help warm the family.

BTW I remember, in a pinch, using a laundry basket. And I know that one of my grandmothers was placed in a drawer (and since this particular grandmother was particularly tiny and needed to be kept warm) warmed and covered bricks were included in the drawer.

Sometimes things only seem "unnatural" in the eyes of the beholder.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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You're right, Jim, but what you might be missing is that the exterior posture of the body has an effect on our interior attitude. C.S. Lewis said as much on multiple occasions.


I believe the opposite is the true factor in that what's happening internally is expressed externally and is what is true. The reverse
is posturing an image which only effects the ego, i.e. I am being holy, where holiness doesn't exist.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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JoabAnias

What is in the heart that would move someone to kneel before the Lord?

Love for God and love for his fellow man.

A person who loves God with his entire being, will love his fellow man ans well and will not do anything to stand out as being above his fellow man, whether in holiness or social standing.

If the congregations kneels when receiving Holy Communion, it would be just as arrogant for a person to stand just as it can be arrogance to kneel when the rest of the congregation stands.



And what would make one think there is anything wrong with that?

We worship in communion with our fellow parishioners. We should not do those things which present a self-serving agenda.

Lets be careful not to make emotional inspiration synonymous with reverence either way.

That's right, don't stand out from the rest.

Faith that fails to inspire reverence is dead. God knows that.

And faith without love is not faith.

Jim
 
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AMDG

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If the congregations kneels when receiving Holy Communion, it would be just as arrogant for a person to stand just as it can be arrogance to kneel when the rest of the congregation stands.

In the United States, the posture that the bishops decided on is standing with a sign of reverence. Yet even the GIRM notes that when receiving kneeling no *other* sign of reverence is needed *and* even dubiums have noted that kneeling for reception of Communion is allowed *plus* Cardinal Arinze, speaking for the Vatican, notes that people should not be called disobedient or "looked down upon" for kneeling in reverence. Sooo--are you now saying that God doesn't love obedience?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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In the United States, the posture that the bishops decided on is standing with a sign of reverence. Yet even the GIRM notes that when receiving kneeling no *other* sign of reverence is needed *and* even dubiums have noted that kneeling for reception of Communion is allowed *plus* Cardinal Arinze, speaking for the Vatican, notes that people should not be called disobedient or "looked down upon" for kneeling in reverence. Sooo--are you now saying that God doesn't love obedience?


Those who kneel when the norm is standing can not be denied Holy Communion, but should be given proper catechesis on why standing is
the norm.

Personally, I'd have no problem with the Bishop's changing to kneeling as the norm, but until they do, I'll stand where standing is the norm for that congregation

Jim
 
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AMDG

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Those who kneel when the norm is standing can not be denied Holy Communion, but should be given proper catechesis on why standing is
the norm.

Proper catechesis is that kneeling in reverence is allowed. Remember that even when one receives standing, a sign of reverence *must* be given, the GIRM states that when receiving kneeling *no other* sign of reverence is necessary *and* we have the dubiums that say that it is okay to kneel to receive communion.
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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All the Catholic Churches where I live that were built before Vatican 2 have retained altar rails (but thats just one). All the others don't have them, St. Mark's which was built in the 90's thought about adding them in, but we decided against it.
 
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JoabAnias

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A person who loves God with his entire being, will love his fellow man ans well and will not do anything to stand out as being above his fellow man, whether in holiness or social standing.
When receiving communion, God doesn't care what other people are doing.

If the congregations kneels when receiving Holy Communion, it would be just as arrogant for a person to stand just as it can be arrogance to kneel when the rest of the congregation stands.
Both can be done with reverence. There is no problem with any sincere gesture until it becomes a personal initiative not perscribed for by the norms.

We worship in communion with our fellow parishioners. We should not do those things which present a self-serving agenda.
The Church officially makes allowances for various postures of reverence, i.e.; kneeling or standing and prescribes for kneeling at certain places that in some Churches is ignored and not done at all. None of them are an agenda against anyone else except the ones omitted in disobedience of the GIRM. Thinking that reverence or obedience would be an agenda would be immature and actually, its just the opposite.

That's right, don't stand out from the rest.
My parish stands out because my pastor provides for everyones needs. Standing or kneeling.

And faith without love is not faith.
So its not love to remove altar rails or kneelers for those whose hearts move them to kneel.
 
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JoabAnias

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Proper catechesis is that kneeling in reverence is allowed. Remember that even when one receives standing, a sign of reverence *must* be given, the GIRM states that when receiving kneeling *no other* sign of reverence is necessary *and* we have the dubiums that say that it is okay to kneel to receive communion.

It states that other sign is a recommended bow.

How many people who stand do you see bow?

They haven't a clue the Bishops recommend a bow.
 
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MariaRegina

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It states that other sign is a recommended bow.

How many people who stand do you see bow?

They haven't a clue the Bishops recommend a bow.

I have seen people make a bow (metania) in Dominican parishes and in Eastern Catholic/Orthodox parishes. Are they done elsewhere?
 
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servant of Merciful Love

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It states that other sign is a recommended bow.

How many people who stand do you see bow?

They haven't a clue the Bishops recommend a bow.
All receive standing in our diocese.
We were instructed by the Bishop to bow and most do.
Some still genuflect in spite of instructions not to (for safety concerns...people behind them tripping etc).
 
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All receive standing in our diocese.
We were instructed by the Bishop to bow and most do.
Some still genuflect in spite of instructions not to (for safety concerns...people behind them tripping etc).

Isn't the line usually moving slow enough to prevent anyone from tripping? I don't mean to be rude but if you run into someone that stops to genuflect when your walking less than 1 MPH you have to really not be paying attention.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Proper catechesis is that kneeling in reverence is allowed. Remember that even when one receives standing, a sign of reverence *must* be given, the GIRM states that when receiving kneeling *no other* sign of reverence is necessary *and* we have the dubiums that say that it is okay to kneel to receive communion.

It's actually not OK, but tolerated.

People who kneel while the norm is standing are not to be denied Holy Communion, but should be instructed in the proper catechesis.

This doesn't mean it's acceptable, but rather, it's tolerated.

When people approach to receive and everyone is standing, and suddenly a person decides to kneel, they may create an obstacle for others. Also, the priest must then bow down to the kneel'er.

To me it doesn't make sense and is a sign of arrogance when some one decides to act in a way which makes them stand out from the rest of the community.

I think the Pope would be wise to make the norm, kneeling or standing, but the division on this issue, like holding hands during the Lord's prayer is a distraction.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Isn't the line usually moving slow enough to prevent anyone from tripping? I don't mean to be rude but if you run into someone that stops to genuflect when your walking less than 1 MPH you have to really not be paying attention.


It's a very small church, only seats 150 people.

Also, we have six lakes in town which means, we have many people visiting who could be caught off guard when some one decides to genuflect or kneel.

People usually line up within arms reach of the person in front. It can be a hazard for some one approaching communion in quiet reflection and reverence.

Again, why do it if isn't the norm of that parish?


Jim
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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It's a very small church, only seats 150 people.

Also, we have six lakes in town which means, we have many people visiting who could be caught off guard when some one decides to genuflect or kneel.

People usually line up within arms reach of the person in front. It can be a hazard for some one approaching communion in quiet reflection and reverence.

Again, why do it if isn't the norm of that parish?


Jim

It does make more sense for smaller parishes, I went to a Spanish Mass at St. Josephs a little earlier here in Norman, it's roughly the same size as your church, and I can see how it can cause problems. But for larger parishes like St. Marks here that seats close to 600 hundred with loads of extra room in the main aisle it wouldn't be an issue. It just seems that this would be a rule thats better applied on a church by church basis rather than a diocese wide level.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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It does make more sense for smaller parishes, I went to a Spanish Mass at St. Josephs a little earlier here in Norman, it's roughly the same size as your church, and I can see how it can cause problems. But for larger parishes like St. Marks here that seats close to 600 hundred with loads of extra room in the main aisle it wouldn't be an issue. It just seems that this would be a rule thats better applied on a church by church basis rather than a diocese wide level.


I've been to large parishes as well and it too can be an obstacle.

Best to stay with the norm of the congregation. If it's kneeling, then kneel. If standing, then stand.

God knows the heart and it doesn't require anything out of the norm for that parish.

Jim
 
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