All actions of God in OT is Yeshua

[Soyeong]

I would agree if the Targum was just giving commentary, but that is not the case. It quotes verses, but adds the word "memra".

When you say Yeshua is "the angel of the Lord", are you then saying he is not "the Lord" (YHWH)?

Yeshua us the angel of the Lord, the angel of the Lord is God, and Yeshua is God.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua us the angel of the Lord, the angel of the Lord is God, and Yeshua is God.

Can you prove to me that Yeshua is the angel of YHWH without using circular reasoning? The angel of YHWH is Not God, but God's messenger. Also, Yeshua is NOT an angel (Hebrews 2:5).

 

[danny ski]

Interesting topic. Now, make the for argument using only the Tanakh.

 

[gadar perets]

Interesting topic. Now, make the for argument using only the Tanakh.

Who are you addressing your post to and what is the "for argument"? Are you referring to the argument in favor of Yeshua being the angel of YHWH and only using the Tanakh to prove it?

 

[Soyeong]

Can you prove to me that Yeshua is the angel of YHWH without using circular reasoning? The angel of YHWH is Not God, but God's messenger. Also, Yeshua is NOT an angel (Hebrews 2:5).

The angel of the Lord acts with the full authority of God, has attributes that only God has, and is referred to interchangeably with God, such as in Genesis 16:7-12, Genesis 22:1-18, Exodus 3:2-6, Exodus 14:13-20, Exodus 23:20-22, Judges 2:1-4, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:3-22. If no one can see God and live (Exodus 33:20) and no one has seen God, but only the Son (John 1:18), then who ate lunch with Abraham and who wrestled with Jacob? Abraham saw three men and one of them was Adonai, which is a title only used for God (Genesis 18:1-3). We are told that Isaac wrestled with a man, yet Isaac identified him as God (Genesis 32:24-30). However, in Hosea 12:2-5, it says that Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed, and that the angel is referred to as the Lord, the God of hosts. In Isaiah 6:1-5, Isaiah saw the King, the Lord of hosts sitting on the throne and John 12:41 says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. In Genesis 28:13-20, YHWH spoke to Jacob in his dream, then Jacob anointed a pillar, called the place Bethel, and made a vow to God, yet in Genesis 31:11-13 it says that the angel of God spoke to him and identified himself as the God of Bethel, where Jacob anointed a pillar and made a vow to him. In Daniel 3:22-28, the fourth person in the fiery furnace was the Son of God. In Malachi 3:1, in a prophecy about the first coming of the Messiah, God says that he will send His messenger and "malak" means "angel". In John 5:39, Jesus said that Scriptures testify of him, so if Jesus wasn't the memra or the angel of the Lord, then what do you think he was referring to? Furthermore, the angel of the Lord ceased to appear after Jesus became incarnated.

I also recommend the book Who Ate Lunch With Abraham?.

 

[gadar perets]

The angel of the Lord acts with the full authority of God, has attributes that only God has, and is referred to interchangeably with God, such as in Genesis 16:7-12, Genesis 22:1-18, Exodus 3:2-6, Exodus 14:13-20, Exodus 23:20-22, Judges 2:1-4, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:3-22.

God can give anyone authority to carry out His will. He can also work through anyone to perform miracles as He did with Moses, Yeshua, Peter, etc. YHWH’s angel was sent as His representative or shaliach. As such, the angel could speak in YHWH’s name and with His full authority. The prophets do the same thing quite often. Therefore, Malachi can say, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me..." (Mal.3:1), yet, no one would dare say Malachi was Yahweh.

The Jewish understanding of this is important to note here. It is called the “law of agency”. "The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion," Adama Books, New York, 1986, pg.15 reads, "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Almighty Yahweh appointed the Angel of Yahweh, as His agent. As such, anything he did was regarded as though the Almighty Himself did it.

If no one can see God and live (Exodus 33:20) and no one has seen God, but only the Son (John 1:18), then who ate lunch with Abraham and who wrestled with Jacob?

If you believe the Son is God and that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then you have people seeing God.

Abraham saw three men and one of them was Adonai, which is a title only used for God (Genesis 18:1-3). We are told that Isaac wrestled with a man, yet Isaac identified him as God (Genesis 32:24-30). However, in Hosea 12:2-5, it says that Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed, and that the angel is referred to as the Lord, the God of hosts.

You assume the Son ate with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob. You read him into the text. That is a hermeneutical no no. If Abraham ate with the Son who is God, then he saw God. The fact is, he ate with God’s angel who was his agent. Men can look upon angel’s, but they cannot look upon God.

In Isaiah 6:1-5, Isaiah saw the King, the Lord of hosts sitting on the throne and John 12:41 says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

A superficial reading leads one to believe that the "his" and "him" of verse 41 refers to Yeshua and ties in with verse 37. For the sake of clarity I will quote the verses with [brackets] designating the speaker.

Jn.12:37,38, "But though he [Yeshua] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him [Yeshua]: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he [Isaiah] spake, ‘Lord [God], who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the YHWH been revealed?' (The underlined is a quote from Is.53:1. The "arm of Yahweh" is Isaiah's reference to the Messiah). The passage continues with verses 39-41; "Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, 'He [Yahweh] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I [Yahweh] should heal them.' These things said Isaiah, when he [Isaiah] saw his [Yahweh's] glory, and spake of him [Yahweh]." Verse 40 (underlined) is a quote from Is.6:10. John is quoting a second passage from Isaiah to show why they could not believe on Yeshua; because Yahweh blinded them. Verse 41 therefore, is referring to Is.6:10, not Is.53:1. In Is.6:1-3 Yahweh is seen in all His glory. That is the glory referred to in verse 41. It was not Yeshua's glory.

In Genesis 28:13-20, YHWH spoke to Jacob in his dream, then Jacob anointed a pillar, called the place Bethel, and made a vow to God, yet in Genesis 31:11-13 it says that the angel of God spoke to him and identified himself as the God of Bethel, where Jacob anointed a pillar and made a vow to him.

The angel spoke as YHWH’s agent. Also, note that in Gen 28:13, the angel said he was the God of Abraham and of Isaac. Acts 3:13 reveals to us that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob glorified His Son Yeshua. The Son is NOT the God of our fathers. YHWH is.

In Daniel 3:22-28, the fourth person in the fiery furnace was the Son of God.

It says no such thing. The Hebrew uses the word “demah” (like/resembles). What would a pagan king no about what the Son of God looks like? I prefer the ASV and NASB’s translation:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.​

In Malachi 3:1, in a prophecy about the first coming of the Messiah, God says that he will send His messenger and "malak" means "angel".

Malak can refer to angels or to men as in 2Sam 11:22-23. In fact, the KJV uses “messenger” as opposed to “angel” whenever “malak” is used referring to a non-angelic being as in Mal 3:1.

In John 5:39, Jesus said that Scriptures testify of him, so if Jesus wasn't the memra or the angel of the Lord, then what do you think he was referring to?

There are so many other things he could be referring to; the Passover Lamb, the wave sheaf, sin offerings, the lid on the mercy seat, and probably hundreds more.

Furthermore, the angel of the Lord ceased to appear after Jesus became incarnated.

Not true. Here is one example that proves Yeshua was not “the angel of the Lord” (there are at least four other appearances of him in Acts).

Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.​

The angel went on to say, “Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Yeshua, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The being who said He was the "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 is the same being who said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Exodus 3:6. Acts 3:13 settles the matter. It was Father YHWH saying He was the "I AM".

I have learned that the tetragrammaton, YHVH, if we plug in the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters, means "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand," that is to say, Jesus.

 

[gadar perets]

I have learned that the tetragrammaton, YHVH, if we plug in the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters, means "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand," that is to say, Jesus.

According to this chart, which is the first one I came to online (https://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/clip_image0108.png), it gives other meanings for the letters. It seems to me that one can continually search for meanings that make YHWH say what they want it to say. From this chart, I can use Worship, Breath, Secure, and Reveal to come up with the YHWH meaning Worship me and Breath Securely, yes Breath. Keep in mind that I came up with that meaning on the spur of the moment. How much time did others contemplate a meaning tied into Yeshua to make him be YHWH?

 

[Lazarus Short]

According to this chart, which is the first one I came to online (https://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/clip_image0108.png), it gives other meanings for the letters. It seems to me that one can continually search for meanings that make YHWH say what they want it to say. From this chart, I can use Worship, Breath, Secure, and Reveal to come up with the YHWH meaning Worship me and Breath Securely, yes Breath. Keep in mind that I came up with that meaning on the spur of the moment. How much time did others contemplate a meaning tied into Yeshua to make him be YHWH?

That looks like the chart I used, but you seem to prefer reducing my coherent message to absurdity. Dada dada dada.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yeshua Messiah, through whom are all things, and we through him.

So the Father is excluded from being Master as you exclude Messiah from being God? But if you will be converted then plainly this what it means:

5 Because even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us is one Almĭghty the Făther, from whom are all things, and we exist for him, and one Adŏnaı Yĕshua, the Mĕssiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through him.

The titles go with the names, i.e. “one Almĭghty the Făther,” and “one Adŏnaı Yĕshua the Mĕssiah.” There is one Almĭghty Father. There is one Almĭghty Sŏn. There is one Adŏnaı Făther. There is one Adŏnai the Sŏn. If anyone says that one Almĭghty exludes the Sŏn from being Almĭghty, then ask him if saying one Adŏnaı Yĕshua excludes the Făther from being Adŏnaı or Măster. There is one Almĭghty Făther because there is one Elohım that has the position of Făther. And there is one Adŏnaı Yĕshua, because there is only one that has the position of Sŏn.

 

[daq]

The Targum says that it is the memra that did the creating, which is also translated as "logos" or "word":

Genesis 1:26-27 "And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them."

Deuteronomy 33:27 The habitation of Eloha is from eternity, and the world was made by His Word; and He will drive out thy enemies from before thee, and will say, Destroy.

If you study the actions of the memra in the Targum and keep in mind that the book of John identifies Yeshua as the memra, then it is without question that he was saying that the actions of God in the OT were taken by Yeshua.

Nehemiah 8:8 They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear[a] and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read.

The people had been in captivity and spoke Aramaic, so this verse is in reference to the Targum, which made the Book of the Law of God clear and gave it meaning so that the people could understand it. It was read out loud in synagogues every Sabbath, so it was very likely that John was inspired to write the opening to his Gospel after hearing Genesis 1 read out loud. They considered the memra to have six attributes, which John then attributed to Yeshua one after the other, so the parallels are extremely strong:

1. "The memra is individual and yet the same as God (John 1:1-“and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”).
2. The memra was the instrument of creation (John 1:3-“All things were made by Him” and John 1:10-“the world was made by him”).
3. The memra was the instrument of salvation (John 1:12-“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name”).
4. The memra was the visible presence of God or Theophany (John 1:14-“And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”).
5. The memra was the covenant maker (John 1:17-“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”).
6. The memra was the revealer of God (John 1:18-“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”)."

http://www.bibleword.org/wp/the-memra-the-word/2132

Sorry, I edited it too late. The people had been in captivity and spoke Aramaic, so they needed it translated and explained so that they could understand it. So they were reading from the Torah, but translating it into Aramaic, which is the Targum. Regardless of whether you think the Targum was inspired, that is the concept that John was referring to when he identified Yeshua as the memra.

Yeshua us the angel of the Lord, the angel of the Lord is God, and Yeshua is God.

The angel of the Lord acts with the full authority of God, has attributes that only God has, and is referred to interchangeably with God, such as in Genesis 16:7-12, Genesis 22:1-18, Exodus 3:2-6, Exodus 14:13-20, Exodus 23:20-22, Judges 2:1-4, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:3-22. If no one can see God and live (Exodus 33:20) and no one has seen God, but only the Son (John 1:18), then who ate lunch with Abraham and who wrestled with Jacob? Abraham saw three men and one of them was Adonai, which is a title only used for God (Genesis 18:1-3). We are told that Isaac wrestled with a man, yet Isaac identified him as God (Genesis 32:24-30). However, in Hosea 12:2-5, it says that Jacob wrestled with the angel and prevailed, and that the angel is referred to as the Lord, the God of hosts. In Isaiah 6:1-5, Isaiah saw the King, the Lord of hosts sitting on the throne and John 12:41 says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. In Genesis 28:13-20, YHWH spoke to Jacob in his dream, then Jacob anointed a pillar, called the place Bethel, and made a vow to God, yet in Genesis 31:11-13 it says that the angel of God spoke to him and identified himself as the God of Bethel, where Jacob anointed a pillar and made a vow to him. In Daniel 3:22-28, the fourth person in the fiery furnace was the Son of God. In Malachi 3:1, in a prophecy about the first coming of the Messiah, God says that he will send His messenger and "malak" means "angel". In John 5:39, Jesus said that Scriptures testify of him, so if Jesus wasn't the memra or the angel of the Lord, then what do you think he was referring to? Furthermore, the angel of the Lord ceased to appear after Jesus became incarnated.

I also recommend the book Who Ate Lunch With Abraham?.

Memra is a form of emer, imra, imrat, imrai, mamar, memar, etc., and is found in key places which contexts inform us of what the sages likely intend when they use the term. The word appears in the Aramaic of Daniel 4:17 and in wisdom passages such as Proverbs 8:8, (imrai). Again context, context, context:

Proverbs 30:4-5 KJV
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
5 Every word [imrat-(Memra)] of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Who has descended from the heavens but the Spirit of the Holy One?
And that was in the somatiko-corporeal-bodily form of the Dove, (Luke 3:22).
.
.

 

[pinacled]

Interesting topic. Now, make the for argument using only the Tanakh.

I have a few years worth of notes. But it will take a bit more time to finish my study in Yechezkel/Ezekiel. Aloted instructions in congruent order has proven difficult.

 

[gadar perets]

That looks like the chart I used, but you seem to prefer reducing my coherent message to absurdity. Dada dada dada.

That was not my intention. Since I could not find "nail" or "hand" as meanings for Yod, Heh or Vav, I could not readily embrace your message. Also, since you had "Behold" twice I assumed it was for Heh. That would mean your message read from right to left "Hand the Behold, Nail the Behold". Again, I could not readily embrace your message.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That was not my intention. Since I could not find "nail"or "hand" as meanings for Yod, Heh or Vav, I could not readily embrace your message. Also, since you had "Behold" twice I assumed it was for Heh. That would mean your message read from right to left "Hand the Behold, Nail the Behold". Again, I could not readily embrace your message.

The chart I found on the www had slightly different meanings for the letters, but I can't find it just now. You can always refer to my avatar...

 

[gadar perets]

So the Father is excluded from being Master as you exclude Messiah from being God? But if you will be converted then plainly this what it means:

5 Because even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us is one Almĭghty the Făther, from whom are all things, and we exist for him, and one Adŏnaı Yĕshua, the Mĕssiah, through whom are all things, and we exist through him.

The titles go with the names, i.e. “one Almĭghty the Făther,” and “one Adŏnaı Yĕshua the Mĕssiah.” There is one Almĭghty Father. There is one Almĭghty Sŏn. There is one Adŏnaı Făther. There is one Adŏnai the Sŏn. If anyone says that one Almĭghty exludes the Sŏn from being Almĭghty, then ask him if saying one Adŏnaı Yĕshua excludes the Făther from being Adŏnaı or Măster. There is one Almĭghty Făther because there is one Elohım that has the position of Făther. And there is one Adŏnaı Yĕshua, because there is only one that has the position of Sŏn.

I did not quote 1Co 8:6 to bring up "God" and "Lord", but to show that the Father is the direct cause of all things. Why are you changing the text from "God" to "Almighty"? Where do you find "Almighty Son" in Scripture?

 

[AbbaLove]

Where do you find "Almighty Son" in Scripture?

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 KJV
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[gadar perets]

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 KJV
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The only verse that seems to apply the Title "Almighty" to Yeshua is Rev 1:8. However, those are the words of our Father YHWH. They should not be in red in our Bibles. Rev 1:4 is a greeting from the Father and verse 5 is a greeting from the Son. It is the being in verse 4 who is “which is, and which was, and which is to come”. This is further verified in the Rev 4 & 5:

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

The Creator is being worshiped. The English translations call Him "Lord God Almighty". In Hebrew, this would be "YHWH El Shadday" (see Gen 17:1). The "Lord" of Rev 4:11 is "Father YHWH". How do we know that?

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (YHWH) a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Yeshua), hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb (Yeshua) as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he (Yeshua) came and took the book out of the right hand of him (YHWH) that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he (Yeshua) had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God (YHWH) by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10And hast made us unto our God(YHWH)kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.(Parenthesis mine)​

Yeshua took the book out of the hand of YHWH (the Creator). He is then given glory for redeeming us to YHWH our God and for making us kings and priests unto YHWH our God. To read into Rev 4:8 anyone other than YHWH (Yeshua's Father and God) is a grievous mistake.

 

[Norbert L]

Interesting topic. Now, make the for argument using only the Tanakh.

You could look into Alan Segal, a rabbinical scholar who wrote the book "Two Powers in Heaven" and Dr. Michael Heisner, a Chrisitan scholar who also writes about how OT writings support that Jesus is and has been the king of the Jews. They go into the idea much more thoroughly.
http://twopowersinheaven.com/

 

[Norbert L]

Also to the OP post in general, this idea isn't a new one considering some ancient NT manuscripts do read, as the NLT translates the text in Jude 5 as, "So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful."

 

[visionary]

So, you will quote verses of his supposed omnipresence while a man, but you make excuses for his lack of omniscience as a man?

Time frame allows the difference.