All actions of God in OT is Yeshua

[gadar perets]

Visionary, can you please take a breath and come up for air? Instead of whipping off post after post, it would be nice if you would address my replies. Have you read any of them or are you so bent on pushing your beliefs that you will not consider anything different?

 

[gadar perets]

One and the same.

If they are one and the same, then please explain John 8:13-18.

Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Yeshua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
​

If Yeshua was the Father, then he lied about he and the Father being TWO witnesses. They were not one and the same witness, but TWO different, separate witnesses.

 

[visionary]

Visionary, can you please take a breath and come up for air? Instead of whipping off post after post, it would be nice if you would address my replies. Have you read any of them or are you so bent on pushing your beliefs that you will not consider anything different?

I have been where you are. I saw what you are posting. I see differently now. I would be addressing rhetoric if I argue your points. I would rather show the wide spread of truth throughout scripture and let the Holy Spirit convict. I am not here to argue with you. I appreciate you posting your point of view. It allows others who are reading these posts to compare.

 

[visionary]

If they are one and the same, then please explain John 8:13-18.

Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Yeshua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
​

If Yeshua was the Father, then he lied about he and the Father being TWO witnesses. They were not one and the same witness, but TWO different, separate witnesses.

Can God witness as the Judge, the advocate, the witness, the Father, the Son? Will each of these testimonies come from the different angles? Can they still be one?

 

[Soyeong]

I don't build major doctrines on assumptions. You are assuming they spoke only Aramaic and that they used the word "memra" at that time.

1 Timothy 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

I never said that they spoke only in Aramaic. Ezra introduced the custom of public reading of Scripture, which still existed in Paul's day, and which involved reading an Aramaic translation after the Torah was read in Hebrew so that the people who spoke only Aramaic could understand. I think a case can be made that John's Gospel was originally written in Aramaic, but even if that were not the case, I've already shown that it has strong parallels with the concept of the memra, so he was drawing on an already existing concept rather than inventing a new one.

 

[visionary]

Omnipresence is God's characteristic of being present to all ranges of both time and space. Although God is present in all time and space, God is not locally limited to any time or space. God is everywhere and in every alpha and omega of time. No molecule or atomic particle is so small that God is not fully present to it, and no galaxy so vast that God does not circumscribe it. But if we were to remove creation, God would still know of it, for He knows all possibilities, whether they are actual or not. God is naturally present in every aspect of the natural order of things, in every manner, time and place.

God is actively present in a different way in every event in history as provident guide of human affairs. He was up close and personal in the flesh of Yeshua. God is in a special way attentively present to those who call upon His name, who intercede for others, who adore God, who petition, and who pray earnestly for forgiveness. God's name is Yeshua.

I think what is happening here is that the omniscience of God suffers apparent paradoxes due to the limitations of the human mind and ways that the authors of scripture tried to explain Him.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. ... And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua spoke of His omnipresents this way.

Matt 18:20 “For wherever two or three are assembled in my name, I am there with them.”

Yeshua also speaks of always being with us

Matt 28:20 “And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”

The only way He can keep His Word is because He is God.

 

[gadar perets]

Can God witness as the Judge, the advocate, the witness, the Father, the Son? Will each of these testimonies come from the different angles? Can they still be one?

If the Father is really the Son, then He lied to us and tried to mislead us by using the terms "Father" and "Son" to teach us how the two relate. Those terms in English denote two different beings. The parallel words in Hebrew and Greek also denote two different beings.

Your oneness doctrine is also absurd when considering many other verses and concepts. If Yeshua is the only true God, how can he be the mediator between God and man? How can he have a God that he serves? How could he die? How can he be tempted? How can he not know something? How can he be his own priest? and on and on.

 

[gadar perets]

1 Timothy 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

I never said that they spoke only in Aramaic. Ezra introduced the custom of public reading of Scripture, which still existed in Paul's day, and which involved reading an Aramaic translation after the Torah was read in Hebrew so that the people who spoke only Aramaic could understand. I think a case can be made that John's Gospel was originally written in Aramaic, but even if that were not the case, I've already shown that it has strong parallels with the concept of the memra, so he was drawing on an already existing concept rather than inventing a new one.

I agree they had a custom of the public reading of Scripture. If they added "memra" into those readings, then they broke Deuteronomy 4:2.

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua spoke of His omnipresents this way.

Matt 18:20 “For wherever two or three are assembled in my name, I am there with them.”

Yeshua also speaks of always being with us

Matt 28:20 “And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”

The only way He can keep His Word is because He is God.

And he spoke of his lack of omniscience this way:

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32​

 

[Soyeong]

I agree they had a custom of the public reading of Scripture. If they added "memra" into those readings, then they broke Deuteronomy 4:2.

Translating the Torah to make it clear and giving meaning to it so that people can understand it is not at all the same as adding to or subtracting from one of God's commands. In any case, the concept Yeshua being the angel of the Lord, who also has a role in the OT is something that is already in the text.

 

[gadar perets]

When the apostle Paul said

Rom 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, “

he went on to say

Rom 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

He was quoting the prophet Joel, who said

Joel 2:32 “Everyone who calls on the name of God will be saved”

Therefore, to say “Yeshua is Lord” is to say “Yeshua is God”!

To use His Hebrew name, we would more correctly say, “Yeshua is YHVH.”

First, Rom 10:9 in the Greek does not say "Jesus is Lord". Second, Joel 2:32 does not say, "God", but "YHWH".

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

“God”, in this verse, is not Yeshua, but Yeshua’s Father YHWH. It was YHWH who made Yeshua to be both “Lord” and “Messiah” (Acts 2:36) and it was YHWH who sent Yeshua to save the world (John 3:17). Therefore, the ultimate source of salvation is from YHWH through Yeshua.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

The salvation that YHWH provided through Yeshua.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

It was Adonai YHWH who laid the firm foundation of salvation (Isa 28:16) and made Yeshua the chief cornerstone. This is what Paul was referencing in verse 11. If we believe on Yeshua, we will not be ashamed. Father YHWH gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16).

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

YHWH is Lord over all the earth (Joshua 3:11). He made Yeshua to be Lord of all as well (Acts 2:36). Men call upon YHWH for salvation (Psalm 18:3; 55:16; Joel 2:32). They call upon Yeshua for salvation as well (1 Corinthians 1:2). Therefore, it is not clear which “Lord” is called upon here.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

This is a quote from Joel 2:32 which uses “YHWH”. Now we know which “Lord” is being called upon in verse 12; YHWH.

 

[gadar perets]

Translating the Torah to make it clear and giving meaning to it so that people can understand it is not at all the same as add or subtracting one of God's commands. In any case, the concept Yeshua being the angel of the Lord, who also has a role in the OT is something that is already in the text.

I would agree if the Targum was just giving commentary, but that is not the case. It quotes verses, but adds the word "memra".

When you say Yeshua is "the angel of the Lord", are you then saying he is not "the Lord" (YHWH)?

 

[visionary]

If the Father is really the Son, then He lied to us and tried to mislead us by using the terms "Father" and "Son" to teach us how the two relate. Those terms in English denote two different beings. The parallel words in Hebrew and Greek also denote two different beings.

Your oneness doctrine is also absurd when considering many other verses and concepts. If Yeshua is the only true God, how can he be the mediator between God and man? How can he have a God that he serves? How could he die? How can he be tempted? How can he not know something? How can he be his own priest? and on and on.

I am a wife and a mother, As your mother, I say, as the wife, I say... while it is me both times, the context demands in what authority I speak from.

 

[visionary]

First, Rom 10:9 in the Greek does not say "Jesus is Lord". Second, Joel 2:32 does not say, "God", but "YHWH".

​

ok.. So God is not YHVH?? I think this is nitpicking .. in efforts to cloud the obvious.​

 

[gadar perets]

I am a wife and a mother, As your mother, I say, as the wife, I say... while it is me both times, the context demands in what authority I speak from.

The is a big difference between one person holding two offices and two persons being made into one person.

 

[visionary]

And he spoke of his lack of omniscience this way:

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32​

... When Yeshua took on flesh, He empties Himself....

Philippians 2:
6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to cling to, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

He grew....

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Which means that He gave up all to learn it again like a human. It means we are given enough to also know Him, our Creator and Redeemer.

 

[visionary]

The is a big difference between one person holding two offices and two persons being made into one person.

Yep.. God holds many offices.

 

[gadar perets]

ok.. So God is not YHVH?? I think this is nitpicking .. in efforts to cloud the obvious.​

We are dealing with a quote from Joel. It is not nitpicking to require a correct quote, especially since we are dealing with the word "Lord".

 

[gadar perets]

... When Yeshua took on flesh, He empties Himself....

Philippians 2:
6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to cling to, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

He grew....

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Which means that He gave up all to learn it again like a human. It means we are given enough to also know Him, our Creator and Redeemer.

So, you will quote verses of his supposed omnipresence while a man, but you make excuses for his lack of omniscience as a man?