Alert to Premillennialists & Dispensationalists: 2 Contradicting Passages

random person

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When is the First Resurrection? The Pre-Trib Rapture? Or Post-Trib?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

Revelation 20:4-5

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

Biblewriter

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How can it be a pre trib event,if Christ said He wasn't coming until after the trib?Who was He talking to?

The Old Testament never said, even once, that Messiah would come more than just once. But the Old Testament prophecies contained many details that would be flat contradictions if He were only coming one time. I Peter 1:10-11 plainly tells us that the prophets themselves noticed this apparent contradiction and were perplexed by it. NOw that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to this apparent contradiction was that Messiah was going to come more than just once.

The New Testament prophecies about Our Lord's return contain similar details that appear to be contradictions. The precedent set in the Old Testament prophecies shows that the resolution to these apparent contradictions is that our Lord is going to return more than just once.

So the fact (and it is a fact) that He will come after the tribulation does not prove that the rapture is after the tribulation. For Christ did not say He would not come until after the trib. He only said He would come after it. But other scriptures just as plainly show that He will also come before it. And there is thus zero contradiction between the two verses in the OP.
 
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random person

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The Old Testament never said, even once, that Messiah would come more than just once. But the Old Testament prophecies contained many details that would be flat contradictions if He were only coming one time. I Peter 1:10-11 plainly tells us that the prophets themselves noticed this apparent contradiction and were perplexed by it. NOw that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to this apparent contradiction was that Messiah was going to come more than just once.

The New Testament prophecies about Our Lord's return contain similar details that appear to be contradictions. The precedent set in the Old Testament prophecies shows that the resolution to these apparent contradictions is that our Lord is going to return more than just once.

So the fact (and it is a fact) that He will come after the tribulation does not prove that the rapture is after the tribulation. For Christ did not say He would not come until after the trib. He only said He would come after it. But other scriptures just as plainly show that He will also come before it. And there is thus zero contradiction between the two verses in the OP.

Baloney!

1 Thess. 4:16-17 suggests a pre-Trib first resurrection! "The dead in Christ will rise first!!!!!"

Rev. 20:4-5 suggests a post-Trib first resurrection!
 
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The scriptures seem pretty clear that their are two resurrections - one for the righteousness and one for the unrighteous. e.g. Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15.

The simplest explanation:

The one mentioned in 1 Thes 6:16-17 is the first resurrection of the righteous. The one in Rev 20:11-15 (after the millennial kingdom) is the second resurrection of the unrighteous.

Those in Rev 20 before the millennial kingdom were part of the first resurrection.
 
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random person

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The scriptures seem pretty clear that their are two resurrections - one for the righteousness and one for the unrighteous. e.g. Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15.

The simplest explanation:

The one mentioned in 1 Thes 6:16-17 is the first resurrection of the righteous. The one in Rev 20:11-15 (after the millennial kingdom) is the second resurrection of the unrighteous.

Those in Rev 20 before the millennial kingdom were part of the first resurrection.

Read Rev. 20:4 more carefully and you see that I am right, the Beast, his mark, and beheadings precede the First Resurrection!

It is contradictory because the First Resurrection is supposedly occurs during the Rapture before the Beast arrives.
 
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Hi random person. I think that you and I maybe agree on some things, except perhaps what is happening in Rev 20:4.

Is 20:4 really saying that a resurrection took place at that moment (e.g. after Satan is bound)? Several English translations make it sound that way (e.g. "they came to life"), but if you peek at the Greek, the verse really just says that "they lived". Their actual resurrection could have taken place some time earlier.

I believe it took place at his coming, per 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,.

In your view, what constitutes his coming? If we answer that correctly, it should tell us when the first resurrection take place, and (according to 1 Thes 4:16-17) the rapture should take place shortly afterwards.
 
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random person

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Hi random person. I think that you and I maybe agree on some things, except perhaps what is happening in Rev 20:4.

Is 20:4 really saying that a resurrection took place at that moment (e.g. after Satan is bound)? Several English translations make it sound that way (e.g. "they came to life"), but if you peek at the Greek, the verse really just says that "they lived". Their actual resurrection could have taken place some time earlier.

I believe it took place at his coming, per 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,.

In your view, what constitutes his coming? If we answer that correctly, it should tell us when the first resurrection take place, and (according to 1 Thes 4:16-17) the rapture should take place shortly afterwards.

No, incorrect, 1 Thess 4:16 states the First Resurrection occurs at the Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation.

Rev. 20:4-6 states the tribulation saints are present during the First Resurrection. They are participants in the First Resurrection. Thus it states the First Resurrection occurs AFTER The Tribulation.
 
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No, incorrect, 1 Thess 4:16 states the First Resurrection occurs at the Rapture BEFORE the Tribulation.

Hmmm, where in 1 Thessalonians does it state that?

- We agree that the tribulation comes before the resurrection, right?

- We know that the resurrection occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:23), which means that we agree that his coming is also after the tribulation.

- We know that those alive will be raptured after the resurrection, from 1 Thes 4:15-17.

From this, it seems necessary that the order is: (1) tribulation, (2) his coming, (3) first resurrection, (4) rapture.

So again, the key point is what constitutes his coming?
 
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random person

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Hmmm, where in 1 Thessalonians does it state that?

- We agree that the tribulation comes before the resurrection, right?

- We know that the resurrection occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:23), which means that we agree that his coming is also after the tribulation.

- We know that those alive will be raptured after the resurrection, from 1 Thes 4:15-17.

From this, it seems necessary that the order is: (1) tribulation, (2) his coming, (3) first resurrection, (4) rapture.

So again, the key point is what constitutes his coming?

Or

(1) the First Resurrection is spiritual (John 8:51, John 11:26),

(2) Tribulation happened in the 1st Century,

(3) His coming will resurrect everyone (John 5:28-29)

And the secret Rapture is a false doctrine!

I am a partial Preterist!
 
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Interplanner

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The Thess material about the man of sin was about what happened in Judea in the 60s. Much of it and all of Mt 24A & // took place then, but the end of the world did not come. Instead of the brightness of his glory destroying that man of sin, there were other means, and the church continued its work in other ways.
 
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random person - Well, we have quite a few differences then. You seem to think there are three resurrections? (1) a "spiritual" first resurrection, (2) physical first resurrection at Christ's coming, and (3) physical second resurrection of the unrighteous at His coming.

Scripture defines two resurrections - one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous (2 and 3 above).

(1) the First Resurrection is spiritual (John 8:51, John 11:26),
These verses aren't about resurrection, but rather about eternal spiritual life despite physical death.

(2) Tribulation happened in the 1st Century,
IMO, there's no way the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled. If they have been fulfilled, then Revelation really exaggerated things.

(3) His coming will resurrect everyone (John 5:28-29)
IMO, all the passages that speak directly about resurrections describe them as two events that take place at Christ's coming (although not simultaneously).

And the secret Rapture is a false doctrine!
I'm not sure what you mean by "secret". There are a bunch of passages that describe this event.

I am a partial Preterist!

Pleased to meet you, but I disagree with your position. :)
 
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When is the First Resurrection? The Pre-Trib Rapture? Or Post-Trib?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

Revelation 20:4-5

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus,
color.gif
and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Indeed - the FIRST resurrection is that of Rev 19-20:5 that takes place at the coming of Christ which as Paul tells us in 1Thess 4 is where the saints are raised "the dead in Christ FIRST"

Rev 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Post-Trib rapture - at the 2nd coming of Christ where we find the FIRST RESURRECTION - which is where the "dead in Christ rise FIRST".

BOTH resurrections are real, physical, literal.

The saints come up in the FIRST resurrection.

1000 years later - the wicked are raised to life.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Kingdom_Come

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The premise of a contradiction between 1 Thes 4 and Rev 20 is faulty. If one reads 1 Thess 4 carefully and critically and without bias as to what they think Paul was talking about, they will find that 1 Thess 4 suggests no such thing as is being claimed here: a pretrib rapture. Paul never identifies when the event he is speaking of (identified as the rapture by most) takes place. He only states that it will take place. The when is inferred by the reader. Thus, a pre-tribber will infer that Paul is speaking of a pre-trib rapture. A post-tribber will infer that he is speaking of a post-trib event. Yet he does not say anything in this passage to suggest that this event is taking place pre-trib or post-trib or mid-trib or any other timing one wishes to apply to the event. If this statement by Paul was all we had, we’d have no idea when this event would take place. He is merely pointing to the promise of the resurrection to provide hope to those mourning lost brethren, for it is in fact a resurrection that he speaks of since the dead do rise. He is pointing to the fact that it will happen. He is not answering the question of when it will happen. To answer the when, one must look for this event elsewhere in Scripture where it is linked to the prophetic order of events. Only then will we know what events must precede it and what events must follow it. Only then will we have any sense of timing. Thus, there is no contradiction between this Scripture and what is written in Revelation. There is only a contradiction between what people perceive to be written here and what is written in Revelation. The two – what is written and people’s perception of what is written – are not the same thing.
 
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The premise of a contradiction between 1 Thes 4 and Rev 20 is faulty. If one reads 1 Thess 4 carefully and critically and without bias as to what they think Paul was talking about, they will find that 1 Thess 4 suggests no such thing as is being claimed here: a pretrib rapture. Paul never identifies when the event he is speaking of (identified as the rapture by most) takes place. He only states that it will take place. The when is inferred by the reader. Thus, a pre-tribber will infer that Paul is speaking of a pre-trib rapture. A post-tribber will infer that he is speaking of a post-trib event. Yet he does not say anything in this passage to suggest that this event is taking place pre-trib or post-trib or mid-trib or any other timing one wishes to apply to the event. If this statement by Paul was all we had, we’d have no idea when this event would take place. He is merely pointing to the promise of the resurrection to provide hope to those mourning lost brethren, for it is in fact a resurrection that he speaks of since the dead do rise. He is pointing to the fact that it will happen. He is not answering the question of when it will happen. To answer the when, one must look for this event elsewhere in Scripture where it is linked to the prophetic order of events. Only then will we know what events must precede it and what events must follow it. Only then will we have any sense of timing. Thus, there is no contradiction between this Scripture and what is written in Revelation. There is only a contradiction between what people perceive to be written here and what is written in Revelation. The two – what is written and people’s perception of what is written – are not the same thing.

I'll take it a step further if you don't mind and suggest that 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20 are not speaking of the same thing.

Thess is written to the church of God of course and speaks of the dead in Christ rising first.. Although let's keep in mind that it is written to the church of God.

Rev 20 speaks of those associated with refusing the mark of the beast during the time of testing which shall come upon the whole world. I suggest that has nothing to do with the church of God.. Certainly not vast portions who are already deceased, at least..

And not only that, but The Lord Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and the first fruits of the first resurrection. That happened 2000 years ago. We are NOT raised until His coming.. And there will also be tribulation saints during the time of testing.. Those who refuse the mark of the beast and are thus beheaded just as it says.

Point being the first resurrection seems to pass long periods of time, and even though 1 Thess 4 is inclusive of the first resurrection, it is not associated with the resurrection of Rev 20.. because the context of Rev 20 pertains to those who refused the mark of the beast during the time of testing which shall come upon the world.

In that Day..

.02
 
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Paul tells the church of God that they have been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son.. The same word used for Enoch.. Who was taken up before the flood. The one who walked with God and who pleased God.. The exact things which Paul says of the church of God in 1 Thess 4.

Sometimes these things just take time.. For a Day with The Lord is as a thousand years.
 
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