ALERT - One World Antichrist Religion Has Arrived

[Dr.Strangelove]

Mr. Theunissen is welcome to his own personal religious beliefs. As for the UN, the rest of us all know that such a move would require ratification in the Assembly, and such a resolution would never occur, as it would be a violation of the UN Charter.

/thread

[thread reopened]

Was Mr. Theunissen voicing is own personal opinion in that article or was he representing the U.N.?

As the U.N.'s rep. he has SIGNED A PROCLAMATION vowing to KEEP the Noahide Laws as part of the broader vision of the U.N.

Even if the adoption of the Noahide Laws by the U.N. did violate some small print in the U.N. charter (documentation please), when have rules not been made to be broken in history?

Please dont deny something thats happening right in front of your face.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

It's probably worth pointing out that the Noachide laws roughly correlate to what the Council of Jerusalem expected out of Gentile Christians. They aren't the same, but they're substantially similar.

How this represents some eschatological one world religion, I have no idea. I'm going to keep my tin foil hat on the shelf for now.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[laconicstudent]

[thread reopened]

Was Mr. Theunissen voicing is own personal opinion in that article or was he representing the U.N.?

As the U.N.'s rep. he has SIGNED A PROCLAMATION vowing to KEEP the Noahide Laws as part of the broader vision of the U.N.

Even if the adoption of the Noahide Laws by the U.N. did violate some small print in the U.N. charter (documentation please), when have rules not been made to be broken in history?

Please dont deny something thats happening right in front of your face.

I'm not denying it because that isn't how the UN works. If you think the United Nations is a body where one representative makes binding decisions for the entire group, ones that violate the preamble to their charter, frankly you aren't in the same world as I am.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

It's probably worth pointing out that the Noachide laws roughly correlate to what the Council of Jerusalem expected out of Gentile Christians. They aren't the same, but they're substantially similar.

How this represents some eschatological one world religion, I have no idea. I'm going to keep my tin foil hat on the shelf for now.

-CryptoLutheran

Ya because at the Jerusalem council they regarded praying to Jesus as IDOLATRY and recommended setting up RELIGIOUS COURTS right?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I'm not denying it because that isn't how the UN works. If you think the United Nations is a body where one representative makes binding decisions for the entire group, ones that violate the preamble to their charter, frankly you aren't in the same world as I am.

Ok so instead of just saying 'your wrong' why dont you contribute to the debate and bring forward some of this preamble to their charter that you think this guy is violating by vowing to keep the NL's for the sake of the U.N.'s VISION FOR THE WORLD?

And if this preamble exists...WHY is this guy who represents the U.N., knowingly breaking it?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Ya because at the Jerusalem council they regarded praying to Jesus as IDOLATRY and recommended setting up RELIGIOUS COURTS right?

Nothing in the article mentions Mr. Theunissen saying that praying to Jesus is idolatry, or mentions setting up religious courts. Not a word. Notta. Instead the article states that Theunissen has committed himself to the Noachide laws; which say nothing about Jesus specifically (positively or negatively) and mention nothing about "religious courts". The Seven Noachide laws are regarded in the Jewish tradition (having a pedigree no later than the Second Temple Period, as can be seen from the quote from the Book of Jubilees) as a general ethical code expected of mankind in general, distinct from the more complex system of instruction (Torah) given to Israel on Mt. Sinai, which is binding only upon the Jewish people.

So what has transpired is that one man, Joop Theunissen, from the ECOSOC has committed himself to the Noachide laws as a symbol of universal human ethics.

Whatever Jewish rabbis and sages past and present have to say about Jesus or Christian adoration of Him is completely unrelated to Theunissen's personal adoption of the Noachide laws.

Nothing is going to come from this. No global one world religion, no international persecution against "Christian idolaters". It's not happening. It's not going to happen. It's paranoia and nothing else.

I have more fear about being accidentally stabbed by a unicorn than the U.N. establishing religious courts to persecute Christians for worshiping Jesus. The very notion is absurd and has no basis in fact or reality.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Nothing in the article mentions Mr. Theunissen saying that praying to Jesus is idolatry, or mentions setting up religious courts. Not a word. Notta.

Are you on the level? Is this supposed to be proof of something? That the guy didn't go through every single stipulation of the laws in that little article?

Instead the article states that Theunissen has committed himself to the Noachide laws;

Himself? So it's got nothing to do with the U.N. or their vision for the WORLD? He wasn't at the conference representing the U.N.? He signes a personal proclomation at this conference did he?

Mr Joop Theunissen Deputy Chief of the NGO branch of ECOSOC signed a proclamation pledging to keep the Laws of Noah.

"Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations – to have a settled and civilized world, in which economic justice and righteousness will prevail - can be fulfilled, with all of us working together in unison."

which say nothing about Jesus specifically (positively or negatively) and mention nothing about "religious courts".

Idolatry: A cursory glance at talmudic traditional authorities shows without doubt that worship of Jesus is idolatry. Christians are idoloters according to them and to the Noahide Laws.

Religious courts: Scuse me? Can you read? Law#7 Establishment of law courts

The Seven Noachide laws are regarded in the Jewish tradition (having a pedigree no later than the Second Temple Period, as can be seen from the quote from the Book of Jubilees) as a general ethical code expected of mankind in general, distinct from the more complex system of instruction (Torah) given to Israel on Mt. Sinai, which is binding only upon the Jewish people.

It's talmudic tradition my friend. Please know the difference betwee the talmud and God's Holy Word in the Torah. The only covenenat God made with Noah is never to let loose a global flood again. Thats it. the rest of this garbage comes from the talmud.

So what has transpired is that one man, Joop Theunissen, from the ECOSOC has committed himself to the Noachide laws as a symbol of universal human ethics.

Why do you keep saying 'commited himself'. Was he at a social even here or was he at an official conference representing the U.N. and clearly stated the keeping the NL's is for the benefit of the U.N.'s vision for the world?

Whatever Jewish rabbis and sages past and present have to say about Jesus or Christian adoration of Him is completely unrelated to Theunissen's personal adoption of the Noachide laws.

There it is again??? Why are you trying to make out that this U.N. rep was declaring a personal adoption that has nothing to do with the U.N.?

Nothing is going to come from this. No global one world religion, no international persecution against "Christian idolaters". It's not happening. It's not going to happen. It's paranoia and nothing else.

So theres no persecution coming for Christians? We're not warned that we are to expect to be delivered up?

I have more fear about being accidentally stabbed by a unicorn than the U.N. establishing religious courts to persecute Christians for worshiping Jesus. The very notion is absurd and has no basis in fact or reality.

Is there a biblical basis for talmudic courts persecuting Christians?

10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils,
and they will scourge you in their synagogues;​

Courts: 4892. sunedrion
Original Word: συνέδριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sunedrion
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-ed'-ree-on)
Short Definition: a council, the Sanhedrin
Definition: a council, tribunal; the Sanhedrin, the meeting place of the Sanhedrin.

4892 synédrion (from 4862 /sýn, "identified with" and hedra, "a convening, sitting together") – "a council of leading Jews (Mk 13:9, Mt 10:17), or the Jewish council at Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin (Aramaic form of synedrion), the High Court, the Senate, composed of 71 members comprising members of: high-priestly families, Pharisees learned in the law, and a lay element of Elders" (Souter).

4892 (synédrion) is also used of the smaller councils ("lower courts") throughout Israel which consisted of 23 members (cf. Mt 5:21,22).
[The Great Sanhedrin met in Jerusalem and basically lacked jurisdiction in Galilee and Samaria (Dr. Maclean, Hasting's Dict. of Ap. Ch.). Local synagogues however exercised considerable authority (see C. Bigg, St. Peter and Jude, 25).]

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Just so we're clear...

You're suggesting that the U.N. is going to establish an international and systematic court system to prosecute idolaters (just Christians? or does this include Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Wiccans, Atheists, Neo-Pagans, Animists, Spiritualists, New Agers, Aboriginal religions, Taoists, Sikhs et al?) as part of some agenda to enforce the dictates of the Talmud upon the world?

That is, some grand Jewish conspiracy to persecute Christians?

Am I getting this right?

Because, as it so happens I have it on good authority that, in fact, the real threat are the Reptilian underlords hidden amongst us who are secretly replacing our children with their own, and that they control the weather through the chem trails left by jets.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Just so we're clear...

You're suggesting that the U.N. is going to establish an international and systematic court system to prosecute idolaters (just Christians? or does this include Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Wiccans, Atheists, Neo-Pagans, Animists, Spiritualists, New Agers, Aboriginal religions, Taoists, Sikhs et al?) as part of some agenda to enforce the dictates of the Talmud upon the world?

Correct. Although obviously this satanic movement will concentrate on breaking the faith of Christians as the other religions are already lost. Certainly a means to control and manipulate those though.

That is, some grand Jewish conspiracy to persecute Christians?

Am I getting this right?

Actually that would be the jews who say they are jews but do lie, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Same old same old. Pharisees in the form of modern day zionism. Real Jews (like me) have accepted their Messiah Jesus Christ.

But, of course...your itching to paint me up as an antisemite. **yawn**.

Because, as it so happens I have it on good authority that, in fact, the real threat are the Reptilian underlords hidden amongst us who are secretly replacing our children with their own, and that they control the weather through the chem trails left by jets.

-CryptoLutheran

Thats nice for you. Maybe you can start a thread warning brethren of the threat and documenting how these Reptilians are conspiring with the U.N. to implement their legal system and how the bible warns Christians of being delivered up to reptilian councils. Maybe David Icke can help you with your disinformation mission.

But,,,,to be honest..I think you've discredited yourself enough already.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Let's just get a few facts out of the way.

Joop Theunissen is Deputy Chief of the Non-Government Office branch of ECOSOC - Economic and Social Council, within the United Nations. So yes, he is a representative of the UN in that role.

The original article can be found here at Chabad.info, which from what I can tell is a nexus of information relating to global events pertinent to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. The other named person at the event in which Theunissen's words were spoken is Rabbi Yakov D. Cohen, founder of the Institute of Noahide Code, Rabbi Cohen is himself a Lubavitcher from New York City.

What distinguishes Lubavitchers from not only Orthodox Jewish but other Chasidic communities is the messianism of many of them, claiming that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is or will become the messiah, whom Lubavitchers affectionately call "the Rebbe".

Theunissen' comment,

"Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations – to have a settled and civilized world, in which economic justice and righteousness will prevail - can be fulfilled, with all of us working together in unison."

Lacks certain necessary context, what can be largely ascertained is the Deputy Chief's belief that the Noachide Laws provide a fundamental representation of universal ethics, a basic foundation of human ethics--given the nature of the Noachide Laws for the children of Noah.

What can neither be ascertained nor inferred is that Deputy Chief Theunissen is planning a formal adoption of the Noachide Laws for the entire U.N. Such is unascertainable with only the information presented in the article

Unless it is possible to supply the necessary contextual information in order to infer or ascertain that such a meaning is intended or applicable, then it remains unascertainable and thus certain conclusions which have been made on the basis of this inference remain untenable.

Thus

A) Deputy Chief Joop Theunissen is not in the position to be making certain unilateral choices regarding the religious or spiritual observances of the United Nations, which as noted would violate some of the most basic governing laws of the U.N., which states

"The Purposes of the United Nations are: [...]To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion;" - Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1, Article 1.3 (emphasis in bold, mine)

B) The article, as written, was intended for a specifically Lubavitch audience, and thus ought to be read and understood in that context; it is, therefore, possibly biased in favor of demonstrating a form of [minuscule] approval of the Noachide Laws by representatives of the U.N. and, particularly, the relevance of the event given the presence of Rabbi Cohen from the INC. Bias, in this case, does not mean deception, only that the article is clearly written for the Lubavitcher community and must be understood in that context.

C) The Lubavitch community is an extremely controversial Chasidic community amongst worldwide Jewry, with many Jews from many Jewish "denominations" and schools of thought regarding Lubavitchers as heretics or apostates, regarding Lubavitcher messianism to be regarded as enough to classify one as a non-Jew, in much the same way that the Jewish community classifies one who believes in Jesus as Messiah a non-Jew. It cannot be stressed enough that the Lubavitch community, though a large Chasidic community, does not represent normative, mainstream Judaism as practiced in Orthodox, Reform, Conservative (et al) communities around the globe.

D) There is seemingly exceedingly little information regarding these events as recorded in the article outside of the article itself and its distribution through several websites. I say seemingly, as my own personal researching into this, came up empty handed. Though I most certainly welcome anyone who can find some good, solid objective information about this to present it, the more facts the better. So, as-is, all we have is the article and what it says, apart from which nothing can be inferred or ascertained.

As far as the conclusions reached.

1a) It is hardly a secret that, as far as the Talmud is concerned, certain unscrupulous and easily gullible people within the Christian community have continued to press forward in dissiminating bad information and downright fabrications. I have time and again found certain claims made as pertaining to the Talmud, and when going to the source, found such claims as having no basis in fact; in neither the Mishna proper nor the Gemara (for those unfamiliar, the Talmud contains both the Mishna, the collection of Oral Law put down in writing and Gemara, which is rabbinical commentary on the Mishna, often rabbinical commentators do not agree and come to often highly disparate and contradictory positions, the whole point being that one needs to read, study, ask questions and study some more).

1b) An example of the above fabrication, misinformation, and downright antisemitic nature of trying to pin the Talmud as somehow some really scary thing which teaches Jews to hate Gentiles and/or Christians, or that it somehow contains intentionally blasphemous things about Jesus (it's actually debatable if the Talmud even or ever mentions Jesus at all...) can be found in claims such as this, found in the clearly conspiracy-stricken and paranoia fest of protocolz.com (methinks someone's taken the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" a wee bit too seriously, also, as a disclaimer, the link contains plain nasty and false statements that are not only offensive to Jewish persons, but should be offensive to any decent human being),

"In the Talmud Christ is called Otho Isch - "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath""

Hint hint, there is no tract in the Talmud called "Abhodah Zarah". It doesn't exist (see for yourself).

Another,

"In the Tract Sanhedrin (103a) the words of Psalm XCI, 10: "No plague shall come near thy dwelling," are explained as follows:
"That thou mayest never have a son or a disciple who will salt his food so much that he destroys his taste in public, like Jesus the Nazarene."
To salt one's food too much or to destroy one's taste, is proverbially said of one who corrupts his morals or dishonors himself, or who falls into heresy and idolatry and openly preaches it to others."

In this case there actually is a Sanhedrin 103a, in fact they almost got it right, here's what Tract Sanhedrin 103a actually says,

"Another interpretation: 'There shall no evil befall thee' — thou wilt not be affrighted by nightmares and dread thoughts; 'neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling' — thou wilt not have a son or a disciple who publicly burns his food. Thus far his father blessed him: beyond this, his mother blessed him." Sanhedrin 103a

So in light of this, I would ask that primary sources be given as concerning the claim that the Tosefta and Talmud, in their mention of the Seven Noachide Laws proscribes the death penalty for Christians because they are idolaters for worshiping Jesus.

And by primary sources I do not mean polemical websites such as the one I referenced above, I mean primary sources. I want to see actual quotes from either the Talmud or Tosefta, or both, that backs up the claim that has been made.

Because, as it stands, the conclusions drawn do not follow the objective and actual information we have, but is instead on the same level as those who claim a cabal of international Jewish bankers (blah blah blah).

I would also ask that everyone who has read this thread, please, utilize your critical thinking skills. You have them, God gave them to you. You are a thinking adult, you have grown up past the age of believing everything you read or see, and are capable of making reasonable and informed opinions.

As Christians we have a commitment to truth, to be fair and good toward our fellow human beings. We cannot do this if we cave into our baser instincts, for, as St. Paul says, the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of sound mind.

In Christ, sincerely,
-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Let's just get a few facts out of the way.

Joop Theunissen is Deputy Chief of the Non-Government Office branch of ECOSOC - Economic and Social Council, within the United Nations. So yes, he is a representative of the UN in that role.

The original article can be found here at Chabad.info, which from what I can tell is a nexus of information relating to global events pertinent to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. The other named person at the event in which Theunissen's words were spoken is Rabbi Yakov D. Cohen, founder of the Institute of Noahide Code, Rabbi Cohen is himself a Lubavitcher from New York City.

What distinguishes Lubavitchers from not only Orthodox Jewish but other Chasidic communities is the messianism of many of them, claiming that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is or will become the messiah, whom Lubavitchers affectionately call "the Rebbe".

Theunissen' comment,

"Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations – to have a settled and civilized world, in which economic justice and righteousness will prevail - can be fulfilled, with all of us working together in unison."

Lacks certain necessary context, what can be largely ascertained is the Deputy Chief's belief that the Noachide Laws provide a fundamental representation of universal ethics, a basic foundation of human ethics--given the nature of the Noachide Laws for the children of Noah.

What can neither be ascertained nor inferred is that Deputy Chief Theunissen is planning a formal adoption of the Noachide Laws for the entire U.N. Such is unascertainable with only the information presented in the article

Unless it is possible to supply the necessary contextual information in order to infer or ascertain that such a meaning is intended or applicable, then it remains unascertainable and thus certain conclusions which have been made on the basis of this inference remain untenable.

Thus

A) Deputy Chief Joop Theunissen is not in the position to be making certain unilateral choices regarding the religious or spiritual observances of the United Nations, which as noted would violate some of the most basic governing laws of the U.N., which states

"The Purposes of the United Nations are: [...]To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion;" - Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1, Article 1.3 (emphasis in bold, mine)

B) The article, as written, was intended for a specifically Lubavitch audience, and thus ought to be read and understood in that context; it is, therefore, possibly biased in favor of demonstrating a form of [minuscule] approval of the Noachide Laws by representatives of the U.N. and, particularly, the relevance of the event given the presence of Rabbi Cohen from the INC. Bias, in this case, does not mean deception, only that the article is clearly written for the Lubavitcher community and must be understood in that context.

C) The Lubavitch community is an extremely controversial Chasidic community amongst worldwide Jewry, with many Jews from many Jewish "denominations" and schools of thought regarding Lubavitchers as heretics or apostates, regarding Lubavitcher messianism to be regarded as enough to classify one as a non-Jew, in much the same way that the Jewish community classifies one who believes in Jesus as Messiah a non-Jew. It cannot be stressed enough that the Lubavitch community, though a large Chasidic community, does not represent normative, mainstream Judaism as practiced in Orthodox, Reform, Conservative (et al) communities around the globe.

D) There is seemingly exceedingly little information regarding these events as recorded in the article outside of the article itself and its distribution through several websites. I say seemingly, as my own personal researching into this, came up empty handed. Though I most certainly welcome anyone who can find some good, solid objective information about this to present it, the more facts the better. So, as-is, all we have is the article and what it says, apart from which nothing can be inferred or ascertained.

As far as the conclusions reached.

1a) It is hardly a secret that, as far as the Talmud is concerned, certain unscrupulous and easily gullible people within the Christian community have continued to press forward in dissiminating bad information and downright fabrications. I have time and again found certain claims made as pertaining to the Talmud, and when going to the source, found such claims as having no basis in fact; in neither the Mishna proper nor the Gemara (for those unfamiliar, the Talmud contains both the Mishna, the collection of Oral Law put down in writing and Gemara, which is rabbinical commentary on the Mishna, often rabbinical commentators do not agree and come to often highly disparate and contradictory positions, the whole point being that one needs to read, study, ask questions and study some more).

1b) An example of the above fabrication, misinformation, and downright antisemitic nature of trying to pin the Talmud as somehow some really scary thing which teaches Jews to hate Gentiles and/or Christians, or that it somehow contains intentionally blasphemous things about Jesus (it's actually debatable if the Talmud even or ever mentions Jesus at all...) can be found in claims such as this, found in the clearly conspiracy-stricken and paranoia fest of protocolz.com (methinks someone's taken the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" a wee bit too seriously, also, as a disclaimer, the link contains plain nasty and false statements that are not only offensive to Jewish persons, but should be offensive to any decent human being),

"In the Talmud Christ is called Otho Isch - "That man," i.e. the one who is known to all. In the tract Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man, who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath""

Hint hint, there is no tract in the Talmud called "Abhodah Zarah". It doesn't exist (see for yourself).

Another,

"In the Tract Sanhedrin (103a) the words of Psalm XCI, 10: "No plague shall come near thy dwelling," are explained as follows:
"That thou mayest never have a son or a disciple who will salt his food so much that he destroys his taste in public, like Jesus the Nazarene."
To salt one's food too much or to destroy one's taste, is proverbially said of one who corrupts his morals or dishonors himself, or who falls into heresy and idolatry and openly preaches it to others."

In this case there actually is a Sanhedrin 103a, in fact they almost got it right, here's what Tract Sanhedrin 103a actually says,

"Another interpretation: 'There shall no evil befall thee' — thou wilt not be affrighted by nightmares and dread thoughts; 'neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling' — thou wilt not have a son or a disciple who publicly burns his food. Thus far his father blessed him: beyond this, his mother blessed him." Sanhedrin 103a

So in light of this, I would ask that primary sources be given as concerning the claim that the Tosefta and Talmud, in their mention of the Seven Noachide Laws proscribes the death penalty for Christians because they are idolaters for worshiping Jesus.

And by primary sources I do not mean polemical websites such as the one I referenced above, I mean primary sources. I want to see actual quotes from either the Talmud or Tosefta, or both, that backs up the claim that has been made.

Because, as it stands, the conclusions drawn do not follow the objective and actual information we have, but is instead on the same level as those who claim a cabal of international Jewish bankers (blah blah blah).

I would also ask that everyone who has read this thread, please, utilize your critical thinking skills. You have them, God gave them to you. You are a thinking adult, you have grown up past the age of believing everything you read or see, and are capable of making reasonable and informed opinions.

As Christians we have a commitment to truth, to be fair and good toward our fellow human beings. We cannot do this if we cave into our baser instincts, for, as St. Paul says, the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of sound mind.

In Christ, sincerely,
-CryptoLutheran

 

[child of Jesus]

So the Genaral Assembly has passed a resolution that worshipping Jesus is idolatry, have they? I reckon I missed that one. I must have also missed the part what the UN decided to try and enforce the Noahide laws, or showed any interest in them whatsoever.

Hogwash, says I.

ya....and arabs from caves used boxcutters to do 9-11.



hogwash, i say.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

To add to my previous post, several years ago a rather extensive collection of how to fulfill the obligations of the Noachide Laws for those Gentiles who choose to commit themselves to them was written, the work is in two volumes and known as the Sefer Sheva Mitzvot Hashem, literally "Book of God's Seven Laws", and has been endorsed by Chasidic and non-Chasidic rabbis across the planet. Surely, if there were information detailing the putting to death of "Christian idolaters", it would be found in what may be regarded one of the most authoritative and extensive texts on Noachide practice in Judaism today.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[child of Jesus]

Mr. Theunissen is welcome to his own personal religious beliefs. As for the UN, the rest of us all know that such a move would require ratification in the Assembly, and such a resolution would never occur, as it would be a violation of the UN Charter.

/thread

hi laconicstudent.

you may want to look at this group....a daughter of the monster.
please remember the UN is A PRIVATE CORPORATION.


United Nations - Alliance of Civilizations - Home

 

[child of Jesus]

[thread reopened]

Was Mr. Theunissen voicing is own personal opinion in that article or was he representing the U.N.?

As the U.N.'s rep. he has SIGNED A PROCLAMATION vowing to KEEP the Noahide Laws as part of the broader vision of the U.N.

Even if the adoption of the Noahide Laws by the U.N. did violate some small print in the U.N. charter (documentation please), when have rules not been made to be broken in history?

Please dont deny something thats happening right in front of your face.

they are telling us (as usual) EXACTLY how it's going down. you just happen to be an alert watchman, Doc: which i thank you for.

let's look at the text of the bulletin again, AND the source the Christian News source linked to.

"Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations – to have a settled and civilized world, in which economic justice and righteousness will prevail - can be fulfilled, with all of us working together in unison."


SOURCE: NOAHIDE.ORG
Noahide.org - UN NGO Reps Pledge to Follow Noahide Laws

Noahide.org - Home Page

 

[child of Jesus]

It's probably worth pointing out that the Noachide laws roughly correlate to what the Council of Jerusalem expected out of Gentile Christians. They aren't the same, but they're substantially similar.

How this represents some eschatological one world religion, I have no idea. I'm going to keep my tin foil hat on the shelf for now.

-CryptoLutheran

hi Crypto:

there are plenty of wolve...i mean shepherds to help you go down that path if you choose.

here's one example that performs the dialectic quite nicely:

THE COVENANT OF NOAH & THE LAWS OF NOAH AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

what we easily now find in research is that THE SECRET some of the pseudo-judeo-christian esoteric societies have been carrying forward these millennia is exactly this LIE: that God gave Oral Laws to men (certain men, men of old, men of renown? *cough*) that are now to be lorded over mankind.

the Freemasons call themselves the orginal B'nei Noach....they also call themselves THE BUILDERS. this has a hot and heavy focus on SOLOMON, but goes all the way back to Nimrod.

Psalm 118:22
The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

if you like that stuff, they're there to help.(i know you don't: we need to help each other)




love you,
~ c.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I would, again, like to stress the importance of critical thinking.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Let's just get a few facts out of the way.

Right. Glad yer finally willing to do some actual research on the issue. Watcha got for us?

Joop Theunissen is Deputy Chief of the Non-Government Office branch of ECOSOC - Economic and Social Council, within the United Nations. So yes, he is a representative of the UN in that role.

Ok so no more ridonculous pretence that this guy is acting on a totally personal level. Good. Whats next?

The original article can be found here at Chabad.info, which from what I can tell is a nexus of information relating to global events pertinent to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. The other named person at the event in which Theunissen's words were spoken is Rabbi Yakov D. Cohen, founder of the Institute of Noahide Code, Rabbi Cohen is himself a Lubavitcher from New York City.

What distinguishes Lubavitchers from not only Orthodox Jewish but other Chasidic communities is the messianism of many of them, claiming that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is or will become the messiah, whom Lubavitchers affectionately call "the Rebbe".

Right ok....so we're talking about a definate SECT of Judaism. Great, we're on the same page.

Theunissen' comment,

"Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations – to have a settled and civilized world, in which economic justice and righteousness will prevail - can be fulfilled, with all of us working together in unison."

Lacks certain necessary context, what can be largely ascertained is the Deputy Chief's belief that the Noachide Laws provide a fundamental representation of universal ethics, a basic foundation of human ethics--given the nature of the Noachide Laws for the children of Noah.

What can neither be ascertained nor inferred is that Deputy Chief Theunissen is planning a formal adoption of the Noachide Laws for the entire U.N. Such is unascertainable with only the information presented in the article

So he's representing the U.N., he's stated that observance of the NL's is REQUIRED for the wider vision of the U.N., the U.N. has a specific NGO set up to spread the Noahide laws "Seven Laws for 70 Nations' and he's PLEDGED in a PROCLAMATION ON BEHALF OF THE the U.N. to KEEP the Noahaide Laws........

.......and you see no inference that the U.N. is planning formal adoption of these laws? Nada? Not a sign? Are you serious?

Unless it is possible to supply the necessary contextual information in order to infer or ascertain that such a meaning is intended or applicable, then it remains unascertainable and thus certain conclusions which have been made on the basis of this inference remain untenable.

What remains untenable is your ability to look at patently obvious information and recognize what it actually says.

Did you know that the Noahide Laws are recognized in U.S. Public Law and have been for 20 years?

Does it bother you in the slightest?

Thus

A) Deputy Chief Joop Theunissen is not in the position to be making certain unilateral choices regarding the religious or spiritual observances of the United Nations, which as noted would violate some of the most basic governing laws of the U.N., which states

"The Purposes of the United Nations are: [...]To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion;" - Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1, Article 1.3 (emphasis in bold, mine)

Who said the guy was making a unilateral choice for the U.N.? We are discussing the fact that the U.N. is PRO-NOAHIDE. Thats fact should be disturbing enough as it is. The fact that these laws are even up for discussion should be piquing the interest of Christians. But some people want to handwave it. Curious.

Right so, some preamble in the U.N. charter says no distiction in regard to religion. So that begs the question, why are these Noahide Laws being lauded as a REQUIRED OBSERVANCE by the U.N.? Does it makes sense to you Crypto? Do you think they are happy to push observance of these laws onto countries under the U.N. umbrella (all countries basically), then they may actually be prepared to FORCE observance too? At a later date?

B) The article, as written, was intended for a specifically Lubavitch audience, and thus ought to be read and understood in that context; it is, therefore, possibly biased in favor of demonstrating a form of [minuscule] approval of the Noachide Laws by representatives of the U.N. and, particularly, the relevance of the event given the presence of Rabbi Cohen from the INC. Bias, in this case, does not mean deception, only that the article is clearly written for the Lubavitcher community and must be understood in that context.

LOLZ! MINISCULE APPROVAL?? Oh boy. PLEDGE to KEEP the laws and required observance is not miniscule my friend. You should see what some U.S. politicians have said about these laws. I or someone else will vring forth more documentation for you so you can see how the political elites are FULL STEAM BEHIND these laws.

So this is just all a feel good back slapping even for the benefit for the lubavichers and the U.N. thought it would be nice to send their representative along to butter up to them and provide some form of [miniscule...lolz] support yeah? Why would the U.N. want to do that if they got nuffin to do with making distinctions regarding religion like their charted says? Answers on a postcard.

C) The Lubavitch community is an extremely controversial Chasidic community amongst worldwide Jewry, with many Jews from many Jewish "denominations" and schools of thought regarding Lubavitchers as heretics or apostates, regarding Lubavitcher messianism to be regarded as enough to classify one as a non-Jew, in much the same way that the Jewish community classifies one who believes in Jesus as Messiah a non-Jew. It cannot be stressed enough that the Lubavitch community, though a large Chasidic community, does not represent normative, mainstream Judaism as practiced in Orthodox, Reform, Conservative (et al) communities around the globe.

Agreed, They are a definate SECT of Judaism. Unfortunately they have much political and social influence in the state of isreal and on the world stage. They are the driving force behind ZIONISM.

D) There is seemingly exceedingly little information regarding these events as recorded in the article outside of the article itself and its distribution through several websites. I say seemingly, as my own personal researching into this, came up empty handed. Though I most certainly welcome anyone who can find some good, solid objective information about this to present it, the more facts the better. So, as-is, all we have is the article and what it says, apart from which nothing can be inferred or ascertained.

Yes news on this is on the small side right now COZ IT ONLY HAPPENED 8 DAYS AGO!

But fear not. We have PLENTY more documentation for you to consider. Coming up at a forum near you.

More to follow...........................

 

[child of Jesus]

Nothing in the article mentions Mr. Theunissen saying that praying to Jesus is idolatry, or mentions setting up religious courts.

hi Crypto.
can we get real please?

quote:

Mr Joop Theunissen Deputy Chief of the NGO branch of ECOSOC signed a proclamation pledging to keep the Laws of Noah.

conclusive data that the UN is moving to do what a High Ranking Official is doing:

Mr.Theunissen [is] saying that praying to Jesus is idolatry, [and] setting up religious courts [is required]:

Theunissen is Deputy Chief of the NGO branch of ECOSOC - United Nations.
Theunissen represents the United Nations.

Theunissen signed a proclamation - we may assume he read it.
Theunissen signed a proclamation - this means it is formal.

The proclamation he signed is a Pledge - this makes it formal.
The proclamation he signed is a Pledge - this makes it an oath.

quote:
Mr Joop Theunissen Deputy Chief of the NGO branch of ECOSOC signed a proclamation pledging to keep the Laws of Noah.

the Pledge is an oath to keep the Laws of Noah.

Theunissen has pledged to keep the Laws of Noah.
Theunissen knows what the laws of Noah are.

the Laws of Noah/Noahide Laws declare worshipping Jesus Christ, recognizing Him as God is BLASPHEMY AND IDOLATRY.

the punishment ON THE BOOKS is beheading.

Instead the article states that Theunissen has committed himself to the Noachide laws; which say nothing about Jesus specifically (positively or negatively) and mention nothing about "religious courts".

we'll get to this.

i'm suprised, frankly, that you are familiar with The Noahide Laws and have not already denounced them as counterfeit and antichrist, blasphemous in and of themselves.

can we consider that the head that received the deadly wound (70AD)has come back to life?

are we to pay serious heed to Paul's warning of another gospel in Galatians?

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

The Seven Noachide laws are regarded in the Jewish tradition (having a pedigree no later than the Second Temple Period, as can be seen from the quote from the Book of Jubilees) as a general ethical code expected of mankind in general, distinct from the more complex system of instruction (Torah) given to Israel on Mt. Sinai, which is binding only upon the Jewish people.

not so.

So what has transpired is that one man, Joop Theunissen, from the ECOSOC has committed himself to the Noachide laws as a symbol of universal human ethics.

Whatever Jewish rabbis and sages past and present have to say about Jesus or Christian adoration of Him is completely unrelated to Theunissen's personal adoption of the Noachide laws.

are you serious?
interesting.

Nothing is going to come from this. No global one world religion, no international persecution against "Christian idolaters". It's not happening. It's not going to happen. It's paranoia and nothing else.

I have more fear about being accidentally stabbed by a unicorn than the U.N. establishing religious courts to persecute Christians for worshiping Jesus. The very notion is absurd and has no basis in fact or reality.

-CryptoLutheran

the UN won't establish the courts.
THE SANHEDRIN already have.

The Sanhedrin - en

Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah - The Sanhedrin - en

the UN is the political power head of this monster.
what's behind it is a Theocracy....it always has been.

the Noahide Laws are the visible front for the world's people to obey: but the Theocracy running the show is Babylonian Mystery Religion TO THE HILT. it has ZERO to do with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

but, you are in denial...you'll change your mind when this happens (unless you are a full preterist...not interested in that on this thread):

Mark 13
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
1And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

Signs of the Close of the Age
3And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?” 5And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray. 6Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. 7And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. 8For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. 10And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. 11And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. 13And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The Abomination of Desolation
14“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man
24“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

The Lesson of the Fig Tree
28“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

No One Knows That Day or Hour
32“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard, keep awake.a For you do not know when the time will come. 34It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servantsb in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows,c or in the morning— 36lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.”

even if you believe all the above has already been completely fulfilled, please consider the revival of the Sanhedrin after 1600 years...and These Laws, and COUNCILS.

councils
συνεδρια noun - accusative plural neuter
sunedrion soon-ed'-ree-on: a joint session, i.e. (specially), the Jewish Sanhedrin; by analogy, a subordinate tribunal -- council.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

As far as the conclusions reached.

Who's reached conclusions? I put a tabloid headline on the topic thats all. We're discussing the issue together.

1a) It is hardly a secret that, as far as the Talmud is concerned, certain unscrupulous and easily gullible people within the Christian community have continued to press forward in dissiminating bad information and downright fabrications. I have time and again found certain claims made as pertaining to the Talmud, and when going to the source, found such claims as having no basis in fact; in neither the Mishna proper nor the Gemara (for those unfamiliar, the Talmud contains both the Mishna, the collection of Oral Law put down in writing and Gemara, which is rabbinical commentary on the Mishna, often rabbinical commentators do not agree and come to often highly disparate and contradictory positions, the whole point being that one needs to read, study, ask questions and study some more).

~ Snipped lenghty talmud strawman hitpeice~

So in light of this, I would ask that primary sources be given as concerning the claim that the Tosefta and Talmud, in their mention of the Seven Noachide Laws proscribes the death penalty for Christians because they are idolaters for worshiping Jesus.

Ok so how about we discuss information from the talmud and the talmudic AUTHORITIES about what they think of Christians, idol worship, courts of law and wotnot instead of you bringing forward your own irrelevant talmud quotes which you know you can shoot down?

Plenty of good stuff coming up I assure you.

And by primary sources I do not mean polemical websites such as the one I referenced above, I mean primary sources. I want to see actual quotes from either the Talmud or Tosefta, or both, that backs up the claim that has been made.

And yet this is a real world political situation we are talking about, that happens to tie in with the Bible. So we are here to discuss Bible and politics together. That means stuff in God breathed scripture (OT & NT), writings of Jewish traditions (talmud, mishna, tosefta etc) AND what the lubavitchers, talmudic rabbis and zionists are saying themselves in the political spectrum and in their institutions. Ok? It's all relevant to this topic. Fair?

Because, as it stands, the conclusions drawn do not follow the objective and actual information we have, but is instead on the same level as those who claim a cabal of international Jewish bankers (blah blah blah).

So you see no evidence whatsoever for Christians to be sitting up and taking notice of these things then? Coz thats what we want to do is to talk about this without simply dismissing it. And you seem to be putting in a WHOLE lot of effort to dismiss this stuff outright. Curious.

I would also ask that everyone who has read this thread, please, utilize your critical thinking skills. You have them, God gave them to you. You are a thinking adult, you have grown up past the age of believing everything you read or see, and are capable of making reasonable and informed opinions.

I absolutely second that. I urge people to check the sources on all evidence brought forward.

As Christians we have a commitment to truth, to be fair and good toward our fellow human beings. We cannot do this if we cave into our baser instincts, for, as St. Paul says, the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of sound mind.

Indeed. I'm not scared of the Noahide Laws. I just want people to be aware of them. And ready to reject them. Even in the face of persecution.

Glad you are commited to the truth. Lets get to the bottom of this.

So, you never got back to me regarding my questions:

Is there persecution coming for Christians?

Is the idea of being delivered up to religious courts still absurd in your opinion?

(you might wanna edit your double post by the way #51, taking up a lot of space)

Doc.