AiG responds to Seebs

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah
seebs-

I actually just read their whole response. Did you insult them on talkorigins forum?

What is the link to what they are refering to in their response?

Unfortunately, I no longer remember the URL, but I am suspicious that it would have been a link to my post about this in talk.origins (the Usenet group, not the web site). I'll include a URL for that.

I do not feel that I insulted them in that post; I wrote it at a time when I was ignorant of the fact that they used this argument, too, and simply attacked what I believe to be an exceptionally poor argument based on a very aggressive misunderstanding of Chinese. Literacy in Chinese does not equate to a feel for the etymology of the language; the mistakes made strike me as being on a level with thinking that "homosexual" means "has sex with men" because it's the same letters as "homo sapiens", not realizing that it's actually "same-sex", because the "homo" prefix is coming from Greek, not Latin.

I enclose my original article on this that I wrote for talk.origins. I *think* that's what I linked to when I sent my feedback to AiG, but I don't remember, and I don't have an unedited copy of my message available.

Here's the link:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...2479557%243c090ad1%40news.plethora.net&rnum=1

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

seebs-

So that I represent you correctly, you are saying that this is wrong, correct:

Because the picture for "8" is not right, correct?

 

[blader]

I would have to agree with their interpretation of the pictophenom "kou" as a person. It is often used this way. For example, a family of three is referred to as "yi jia san kou." (literally, one family, three people).

But the "eight", is definitely a "ji" (few or many), as you correctly pointed out. An eight is NEVER written with a connecting line, and boat is never written without a connecting line for the "ba" pictophenom.

To me, it makes sense, because if you dissect word, it's "vessel, few or many, people). A boat is a vessel that holds a few or many people.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by s0uljah
seebs-

So that I represent you correctly, you are saying that this is wrong, correct:

Because the picture for "8" is not right, correct?

Precisely. There shouldn't be a connector between the two strokes. It's an entirely different character that is pronounced "ji" instead of "ba" and means "a few" or "many" instead of "eight."

 

[blader]

That's an eight. The other one is not.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by blader
I'm actually a native chinese speaker. You are correct. The pictograph in the word "boat" that they said was "eight" is really the character for "many."

You also seem to speak and read English. So can you answer these questions for me?

1. Where does the word "glamour" come from?

2. What does it mean today?

If you can't answer the above questions, can you simply give me a yes-or-no answer to the next question:

3. Do you understand that question 1 is not the same as question number 2?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I asked my brother (who will subsequently check with his Chinese wife) and he said it was "close" enough to an eight to be considered as such. "I guarentee that it is an eight" My brother isn't a liar, and has no part in the arguement, and didn't even know what it was refering to...I asked an objective source.

He said it is technically true that / \ is "eight," but that the character in that image I posted is also an eight. In other words, its hair splitting.

So, AiG is hardly misrepresenting anything, or lying. Also, seebs isn't wrong either.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah
seebs-

So that I represent you correctly, you are saying that this is wrong, correct:

Because the picture for "8" is not right, correct?

Well, I'm skeptical of their assertion about the people thing, and I don't agree at all with the 8. It's not something I would have recognized as an 8.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by blader
I would have to agree with their interpretation of the pictophenom "kou" as a person. It is often used this way. For example, a family of three is referred to as "yi jia san kou." (literally, one family, three people).

Hmm. I hadn't seen it used that way; I'd always seen it as 'san kou ren'... Among other things, can't kou be used to refer to things other than people?

Still, I'll accept that... It still leaves the interpretation exceptionally questionable, and every last one of them has, uhm, issues.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

My brother immediately recognized it as an eight...read my last post seebs. But, you are technically correct, / \ is eight...

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I asked my brother (who will subsequently check with his Chinese wife) and he said it was "close" enough to an eight to be considered as such. "I guarentee that it is an eight" My brother isn't a liar, and has no part in the arguement, and didn't even know what it was refering to...I asked an objective source.

He said it is technically true that / \ is "eight," but that the character in that image I posted is also an eight. In other words, its hair splitting.

So, AiG is hardly misrepresenting anything, or lying. Also, seebs isn't wrong either.

Interesting! I wonder if the debate about whether that's an 8, or something else, has to do with regional differences in writing styles.

It may also depend on context. "The foreigner wrote this and asked if it was an 8" is very different from "what is the first word you think of when seeing this".

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by s0uljah
My brother immediately recognized it as an eight...read my last post seebs. But, you are technically correct, / \ is eight...

What was the context? "Is this an eight" and "what is this" are different, and the connecting line is a big difference, at least, it was when I learned it.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by seebs


Interesting! I wonder if the debate about whether that's an 8, or something else, has to do with regional differences in writing styles.

It may also depend on context. "The foreigner wrote this and asked if it was an 8" is very different from "what is the first word you think of when seeing this".

Yes. He says it is a handwriting style, so to speak.  So, you are both right.

Hopefully we can all join hands and sing "kum-ba-yaw" now.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by seebs


What was the context? "Is this an eight" and "what is this" are different, and the connecting line is a big difference, at least, it was when I learned it.

I asked, "is this an eight," and he replied, "absolutely"

Then I asked about the / \, and he said "technically, that is the correct form, but the difference is negligible."

 

[npetreley]

From a site totally unrelated to creation (traditional Chinese medicine):

http://www.giuliaboschi.com/inglese/chinese_char.html

Ba gang

the eight diagnostic principles

(only the eight is represented here - see page for all characters)

Full: (ba1.gif)

Simplified: (ba2.gif)

Old: (ba.gif)

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by npetreley
From a site totally unrelated to creation (traditional Chinese medicine):

http://www.giuliaboschi.com/inglese/chinese_char.html

Ba gang

the eight diagnostic principles

(only the eight is represented here - see page for all characters)

Full: (ba1.gif)

Simplified: (ba2.gif)

Old: (ba.gif)

And since the old form is what is being refered to in the AiG site...

 

[blader]

No argument there, you got me convinced. Interesting stuff.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Susan:

Is there any scripture where Jesus actually claimed to be God? It seems he usually refers to God as the Father, not himself. But maybe it depends upon the version you are reading.


Here are a few translations of the same verse from the OT, there are likely many many more. How can you be absolutely sure that KJV is the most "accurate"? BTW, it appears that"Lucifer" means "light bearer" or "morning star" (Venus), a Babylonian King - not Satan.

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"
Isaiah 14:12 (NASB) "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!"
Isaiah 14:12 (RSV) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!"
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Helel, son of Shahar! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Oddly enough, Jesus is refered to as the "morning star" in revelation:

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Revelation 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

 

[RufusAtticus]

The problem with this argument is that some Chinese speakers will recongize it as an "eight" and some not. So it's not reliable to just ask any ole' speaker (well reader) of Chinese. Take this example from English:

"Ye Ole Shoppe:" Now, can anyone tell me what the "Y" in "Ye" represents? It doesn't represent the same sound as the "Y" in "you." Modern English speakers might think it does, but they are mistaken.

Until some one with more authority than "I know Chinese," enters the discussion it is unclear if that character actually is an eight, or if that is a simple mistake that even native speakers make.

 

[Didaskomenos]

I heard a little about this when I was in high school. Since this one example is not enough to argue convincingly either way to the exclusion of the other, what are some other examples?