Age of the Earth: Formal Debate - NO COMMENTS PLEASE

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lands21

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This will be a formal debate between:
- Lands21 - Young Earth - 7 day 24 hour creation
- gluadys - Old Earth - God used evolution

Here is the format:

Opening Statement: lands21 (L) then gluadys (G) - 1 post each

Cross Examination: Q&A - 3 Questions in the following format:
1 Q L - 1 A G
1 Q G - 1 A L (until each party has asked and answered 3 questions)

Rebutials: 1 post L, 1 post G

Cross Examination 2: Q&A - 3
Questions in the following format:
1 Q G - 1 A L
1 L G - 1 A G (until each party has asked and answered 3 questions)


Concuding Comments: 1 post L, 1 post G

Each party has 48 hours to make their post, this does not include weekends.

A twin thread will be opened for commentary and anyone wishing to comment on the debate or ask questions of the debaters will be welcome to post in the twin thread. We may also create polls to get a fell on how you think each side is doing.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE ANY POSTS TO THIS DISCUSSION!
Thank you!
 

lands21

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First, let me point out that I do not believe this is a salvation issue. Gluadys is no more or less of a Christian then I am, and I look forward to getting all the answers from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.


That being said…


I hold the young-earth position, and do so without compromise, for several reasons:


First, I am absolutely certain that Scripture specifically teaches the young-earth doctrine. The genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 must mean something; the word “day" in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11, etc., can only be interpreted legitimately as a literal day; death entered the world only after Adam sinned; the flood of Noah's day deposited the rock and fossil record worldwide; Christ alluded to a recent creation; etc. A Bible believer must believe all of Scripture.


Second, I am equally certain, after study of and research in the facts, theories, and methods of geology, a reasonable familiarity with the data and methods of radiometric decay, etc., that there is no geological or physical evidence that demands an old earth. There are many interpretations of certain geologic data which propose an old earth, but there is always another, usually better, interpretation of the same data which points to a young earth. The scientific evidence is actually somewhat generic with respect to age; it can be interpreted both ways. I am convinced that the better scientific interpretation is of a young earth. There are problems yet to be solved, but the bulk of the evidence points to a young earth, and no scientific facts are incompatible with that view. Conversely, I am aware of much scientific evidence which is seemingly incompatible with the old-earth view.


Lastly, the old earth concept is a requisite of evolutionism, which is an unmitigated evil. The disgusting and failed systems of fascism, racism, Marxism, social Darwinism, imperialism, etc., etc., have all been based squarely on evolution and the application of an evolutionary world view to society. Likewise, the modern ills of promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion, humanism, new-age pantheism, etc., etc., flower from the same evil root. It is, in essence, the anti-Biblical, anti-theistic world view.


There can be no justification for a Christian adopting the old-earth concept. Most Christians who do hold it, do so because they have been taught nothing else, and are usually relieved when they discover the evidence referred to above.


That is why we are debating today.

 
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gluadys

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I am enough older than lands21 to remember when virtually no one learned about evolution through school or the media. Just as children currently home-schooled often learn nothing about the scientific theory of evolution today. So it happened that the only source of information I had about evolution in my adolescence was the creationist (young earth) perspective. In my early 20s, like many Christians before and after me, I moved from a creationist perspective to a TE position when I became aware that the information I received from creationist sources was incomplete and often fallacious, and that Christians I knew and respected personally upheld the correctness of the science without compromising their faith.

I will discuss evolution and geology only as science, never as metaphysics. To lay the blame for all the social evils of our time on a scientific theory is ridiculous. Those who practice evil did so long before the science was developed and will do so if the science is falsified, using any excuse that comes to hand. How people abuse and misuse science has no relevance to the truth or falsity of the science itself. Just as how people abuse and misuse scripture (e.g. to justify crusades, slavery, colonialism, etc.) has no relevance to the truth or falsity of the message of scripture.

My position in regard to scripture

The Bible is the premier text of the Christian faith and is authoritative for all Christians on matters of doctrine and Christian ethical living. All of scripture is to be believed, but not necessarily to be believed as scientific or historical fact. Much of scripture is intentionally poetic, visionary, didactic, oracular and symbolic. Furthermore, all of scripture is written within a social, historical, cultural and theological matrix whose nature must be understood to determine the meaning of the text to the human author and his/her first hearers. (I say hearers rather than readers, because in a pre-literate society, most writing was written to be read aloud to the illiterate.)

The first step in understanding scripture, therefore, is to determine the literary genre adopted by the writer. I do not accept that Genesis 1-5 is a journalistic-type report of the historical events of creation. There is too much in these accounts that identify them as literary works, not reports.

This is not to be interpreted as not believing this part of scripture. I believe them as I think they were intended to be believed. I believe that treating them as accounts of historical events distorts and misrepresents the intent of the author.

I will note here that my education beyond high school has been in literature. Therefore, I understand how literature works. I know various literary genres. And I have a great respect for the impact of story in shaping cultural attitudes and beliefs. Story is often much more important as a vehicle of teaching than history is.

My position in regard to science

Modern science developed when natural philosophy began to use mathematics and induction as basic tools for studying the natural world in preference to deduction based on the theories of ancient authorities such as Aristotle. It has proven itself to be an extraordinarily fruitful way of learning about the natural world. Modern science includes both deduction and induction, as well as observation, experiment, and model-building, formation of hypotheses and testing the predictions of these hypotheses against observation.

Modern science does not claim absolute proof for its models. It is dependent on evidence and claims only to be the best current explanation of currently observed evidence.

It is my observation that most proponents of young earth creationism do not understand the scientific method and fail to apply it, notably in the areas of evidence, prediction and falsification. Their supposed alternate interpretations of evidence are ad hoc, often mutually contradictory, not substantiated by tested predictions and usually unable to explain much of the evidence. No coherent scientific model of the history of the planet, the universe or of life on earth can be built from YECist propositions.


Concluding remarks

The major topic of the debate is the age of the earth. Therefore, I expect most of the questions to deal with indicators of age such as: the geological column, plate tectonics, and radiometry. Also admissible, as providing peripheral information, are questions on the fossil record, the dispersal of species geographically and genetic inheritance.

Perhaps in another debate we can look in more detail at the question of evolution itself. But for purposes of staying on topic, I will not respond to arguments or questions which are not relevant to the age of the earth.
 
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lands21

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In your opening comments, you make the statement "I do not accept that Genesis 1-5 is a journalistic-type report of the historical events of creation. There is too much in these accounts that identify them as literary works, not reports." Can you please give examples of words/phrases/sentence structures or other "proofs" that "identify hem as literary works, not reports."?

Thank you.
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
In your opening comments, you make the statement "I do not accept that Genesis 1-5 is a journalistic-type report of the historical events of creation. There is too much in these accounts that identify them as literary works, not reports." Can you please give examples of words/phrases/sentence structures or other "proofs" that "identify hem as literary works, not reports."?

Thank you.


First, it has long been recognized that there are two creation accounts. The first to be written begins in the last part of Gen. 2:4 where it says “In the day that the LORD God created the earth and the heavens… and continues uninterrupted through to the end of chapter 4.

A later account appears in Gen. 1:1-2.4a concluding with the words “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.”

The genealogy in Chapter 5 is probably an editorial addition inserted when the various separate documents that became Genesis were brought together into a single scroll.

Each of these requires a separate analysis.

We commonly refer to the man and woman who feature in the second account as “Adam and Eve.” But neither of these names necessarily implies a specific person. Ha-adam in Hebrew simply means “human being”. It does not even specifically imply a male human being, but the context of him being given a wife settles the gender in this case. So a perfectly good translation all through this story is “man”. Nowhere is the man actually named. This implies that the man is not an individual per se, but a figure or type of every man, every human being. This is turn is consistent with Paul’s reference to being “in Adam”. Each of us is ha-adam insofar as we participate in the same nature as ha-adam i.e. human nature. Similarly, when the man does name the woman, her name is that of a typological figure as well—“life”, the mother of all living.

To this we can add the following elements:
the garden with its two mystical trees
the serpent who speaks
the two sons, symbolizing the shepherd and the agriculturalist and the conflict between their ways of life

All of these are indications of a story which falls in the classic genre of mythology. (Not to be confused with the popular definition of myth as falsehood.)

The other account is a carefully crafted and quasi-poetical account with rhythms and choral repetitions that indicate liturgical use. It uses a framework of days to highlight the importance of Sabbath as a creation mandate. Within this framework one has an introduction, a parallel set of three days + three echoing days and a conclusion in the blessing of the Sabbath. The elements created are set out in categories for which there is no basis in any chronology. Light and Day on the first day, yet no lights till the fourth day to point to one common example.

The days make much more sense to me in a framework of created structure followed by populating the structure. So we have on the first three days the temporal structure of light+dark, day+night, the spacial structure of sky/firmament + waters above and below the firmament, and finally, below the firmament the separation of water and dry land (with vegetation). Then each of these is populated: day+night is filled with heavenly lights, the dome of the firmament and the waters beneath are filled with birds and sea creatures, and finally the land is filled with terrestrial beings of all sorts, culminating in humanity.

The repetitions of “And God saw that it was (very) good” and “There was evening and morning, the nth day.” act as refrains.

From a literary point of view this is a small masterpiece of the writer’s craft. But it doesn’t look much like a history.

Genealogies were part of the myth-making of ancient days. They had different uses than simply tracking family ties. And it was not uncommon to invent appropriate ancestors. Nor was it uncommon to inflate life-times well beyond the current norm. It was part of the representation of ancient ancestors as larger than life heroes.



Question: Do you agree with the biblical testimony that creation is a God-given revelation to all humanity?
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
Please elaborate. Are you asking if I believe God reveals himself through creation?

Yes. Not to the extent as he does through the special revelation given to chosen witnesses such as Abraham, Moses, the prophets and apostles, but as a general witness to his existence, power and glory.
 
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lands21

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gluadys said:
Yes. Not to the extent as he does through the special revelation given to chosen witnesses such as Abraham, Moses, the prophets and apostles, but as a general witness to his existence, power and glory.

Yes, I believe God reveals Himself through creation.
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
Fossils have been frequently cited as the main evidence for evolution. Do you agree with agree with this? If so, why?

No, I do not agree with this. Only creationists have ever cited fossils as the main evidence for evolution.

This is not to say they are unimportant. For example, it is significant that, to date, no fossil has been discovered that contradicts the predictions of the theory of common descent. (These predictions include predictions of what we will not find as well as some things that we ought to find. For example, we will not find a Pegasus-type animal with wings as well as four other limbs among vertebrate fossils.)

Furthermore, no fossil has yet been found at an inappropriate time period. There are no fossils of rabbits in the Cambrian. The fact that a team of scientists could successfully predict a type of fossil to be found in a specific type of rock of a certain age, as in the case of Tiktaalik, shows how strong the correlation of fossils and geologic time is.

But no, fossils are not the main evidence for evolution and never have been. Darwin paid as much or more attention to the geographical distribution of living species as to the paucity of fossils known in his day. Why, for example, do species on islands, such as the Galapagos islands off South America, or the Cape Verde islands off Western Africa, always resemble that of the nearest mainland?

Why are islands also the repository of unique biodiversity, host to many species found no where else in the world? For example, why do the Hawaiian islands have over 100 species of fruit fly, a diversity found no where else in the world for this type of fly?

Every major oceanic island or island group has its own particular species of flightless bird. Indeed, this is a specific prediction that Darwin made and it has proven to be true. Why?

The discovery of plate tectonics has also added to the importance of geographical distribution. We can now trace when species were able to move from continent to continent and when their movement was cut off by continental drift. We can make connections between similar species which now live in widely separated places, showing that they could disperse from a common centre of origin.

Today, genetic analysis is contributing hugely to knowledge of the history of evolution. Once the role of genes and DNA were discovered, it was obvious that any serious discrepancy between genetic relationships and relationships deduced on the basis of morphological features (including those of fossils) would be a huge blow to the theory of evolution. Logically, genetic analysis should give relationships parallel to those deduced by other means. So again, it is highly significant that this has proved to be the case.

In fact, genetic analysis has significantly strengthened the evidential basis for evolution. HERVS simply cannot be explained by any theory other than the common descent of humans and other great apes. And overall, the genetic confirmation of the main lines of morphological phylogeny give us a twin-nested hierarchy of familial relationships among all eukaryote species, possibly extending as well into bacterial and archeal species.

In his latest book, The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins affirms that the evidential basis of evolution is so firmly established by other means that we don’t even need any fossil record at all. Yet the fossil record also supplies its own confirmation of what we know by other means.

This is the strength of the theory of evolution. It is not dependent on a single pillar of evidence. It is upheld by numerous different lines of evidence which are all consistent with each other. No one source of evidence is all-important.

Now for your question.

In your opening statement you said

“the flood of Noah's day deposited the rock and fossil record worldwide;”

A predictable consequence of the loss of life due to the flood is a genetic bottleneck occurring in every type of animal found on the ark including humans, datable to the time of the flood. This is not found in humans or most other species. Genetic bottlenecks do occur in many species, but at widely-varying times, including those that occurred barely a century ago and those that occurred hundreds of thousands of years ago.

genetic bottlenecks

Why are the predictable genetic bottlenecks due to the highly reduced post-Flood population not seen in modern species?
 
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lands21

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Why are the predictable genetic bottlenecks due to the highly reduced post-Flood population not seen in modern species?

Very good question, though I think a mis leading one. This is not something I claim to be an expert on though I very much enjoy learning about it. I offer this response:

"Enormous," "tremendous," "staggering"—all these are adjectives used by geneticist Francisco Ayala to describe the amount of variation that can be expressed among the members of a single species.1 Human beings, for example, range from very tall to very short, very dark to very light, soprano to bass, etc., etc. This tremendous amount of variation within species has been considered a challenge to creationists. Many ask: "How could the created progenitors of each kind possess enough variability among their genes to fill the earth with all the staggering diversity we see today and to refill it after a global flood only a few thousands years ago?"
If we use Ayalas figures, there would be no problem at all. He cites 6.7 % as the average proportion of human genes that show heterozygous allelic variation, e.g., straight vs. curly hair, Ss. On the basis of "only" 6.7 % heterozygosity, Ayala calculates that the average human couple could have 102017 children before they would have to have one child identical to another! That number, a one followed by 2017 zeroes, is greater than the number of sand grains by the sea, the number of stars in the sky, or the atoms in the known universe (a "mere" 1080)!

A single human couple could have been created with four alleles (two for each person) at each gene position (locus). Just two alleles for vocal cord characteristics, V and v, are responsible for the variation among tenor (VV), baritone (Vv), and bass (vv) singing voices in men, and hormone influences on development result in soprano (VV), mezzo-soprano (Vv), and alto voices (vv) as expressions of the same genes in women. Furthermore, several genes are known to exist in multiple copies, and some traits, like color, weight, and intelligence, depend on the cumulative effect of genes at two or more loci. Genes of each different copy and at each different locus could exist in four allelic forms, so the potential for diversity is staggering indeed!
Even more exciting is the recent discovery that some genes exist as protein coding segments of DNA separated by non-coding sequences called "introns." In addition to other functions, these introns may serve as "cross-over" points for "mixing and matching" subunits in the protein product. If each subunit of such a gene existed in four allelic forms, consider the staggering amount of variation that one gene with three such subunits could produce! It is quite possible that such a clever—and created—mechanism is the means by which the information to produce millions of specific disease-fighting antibodies can be stored in only a few thousand genes.

Besides the positive contributors to genetic diversity described above, there is also one major negative contributor: megation. Believe it or not, orthodox evolutionists have tried to explain all the staggering variation both within and among species on the basis of these random changes in heredity called "mutations." What we know about mutations, however, makes them entirely unsuitable as any "raw materials for evolutionary progress."

As Ayala says, mutations in fruit flies have produced "extremely short wings, deformed bristles, blindness and other serious defects." Such mutations impose an increasingly heavy genetic burden or genetic load on a species. In her genetics textbook, Anna Pai makes it clear that "the word load is used intentionally to imply some sort of burden" that drags down the genetic quality of a species. The list of human mutational disorders, or genetic diseases, for example, has already passed 1500, and it is continuing to grow.

By elimination of the unfit, natural selection reduces the harmful effects of mutations on a population, but it cannot solve the evolutionists genetic burden problem entirely. Most mutations are recessive. That is, like the hemophilia ("bleeder's disease") gene in England's Queen Victoria, the mutant can be carried, undetected by selection, in a person (or plant or animal) with a dominant gene that masks the mutant's effect.

Time, the usual "hero of the plot" for evolutionists, only makes genetic burden worse. As time goes on, existing mutants build up to a complex equilibrium point, and new mutations are continually occurring. That is why marriage among close relatives (e.g. Cain and his sister) posed no problem early in human history, even though now, thanks to the increase in mutational load with time, such marriages are considered most unwise. Already, 1% of all children born will require some professional help with genetic problems, and that percentage doubles in first-cousin marriages.

Genetic burden, then, becomes a staggering problem for evolutionists trying to explain the enormous adaptive variation within species on the basis of mutations. For any conceivable favorable mutation, a species must pay the price or bear the burden of more than 1000 harmful mutations of that gene. Against such a background of "genetic decay," any hypothetical favorable mutant in one gene would invariably be coupled to harmful changes in other genes. As mutational load increases with time, the survival of the species will be threatened as matings produce a greater percentage of offspring carrying serious genetic defects.

As the source of adaptive variability, then, mutations (and orthodox evolution theories) fail completely. As a source of "negative variability," however, mutations serve only too well. Basing their thinking on what we observe of mutations and their net effect (genetic burden), creationists use mutations to help explain the existence of disease, genetic defects, and other examples of "negative variation" within species.

Mutations are "pathologic" (disease-causing) and only "modify what pre-exists," as French zoologist Pierre-Paul Grassé says, so mutations have "no final evolutionary effect."4 Instead, mutations point back to creation and to a corruption of the created order. There are 40-plus variants of hemoglobin, for example. All are variants of hemoglobin; that points back to creation. All are less effective oxygen carriers than normal hemoglobin; that points back to a corruption of the created order by time and chance.

At average mutation rates (one per million gene duplications), a human population of one billion would likely produce a thousand variant forms of hemoglobin. Lethal mutants would escape detection, and so would those that produced only minor changes, easily masked by a dominant normal gene. It is likely then, that the 40 or so recognized hemoglobin abnormalities represent only a small fraction of the genetic burden we bear at the hemoglobin position.

According to a new school of thought, "the neutral theory of molecular evolution," much of the staggering variation within species is due to mutations that are either neutral (without effect) or slightly deleterious.5 Such a theory offers no comfort to the evolutionist trying to build grander life forms from mutations, but it is an expected consequence of the creation-corruption model. Interestingly, says Kimura, the amount of variation within species is too great for selection models of evolution, but too little for the neutral theory. He suggests that recent "genetic bottlenecks" have set back the "molecular clock" that otherwise ticks off mutations at a relatively constant rate. Scientists who recognize the fossil evidence of a recent global flood are not at all surprised, of course, that data suggest a recent "genetic bottleneck" which only a few of each kind survived!
Now, what about the time factor in the creation model? How long would it take, for example, to produce all the different shades of human skin color we have today?

There are several factors that contribute subtle tones to skin colors, but all people have the same basic skin coloring agent, the protein called melanin. We all have melanin skin color, just different amounts of it. (Not a very big difference, is it?) According to Davenport's study in the West Indies, the amount of skin color we have is influenced by at least two pairs of genes, A-a and B-b.

How long would it take AaBb parents to have children with all the variations in skin color we see today? Answer: one generation. Just one generation. As shown in the genetic square, one in 16 of the children of AaBb parents would likely have the darkest possible skin color (AABB); one brother or sister in 16 would likely have the lightest skin color (aabb); less than half (6/16) would be medium-skinned like their parents (any two "capital letter" genes); and one-quarter (4/16) would be a shade darker (3 capital letter genes) and a shade lighter (1 capital letter).
What happened as the descendants of our first parents (and of Noah's family) multiplied over the earth? If those with very dark skin color (AABB) moved into the same area and/or chose to marry only those with very dark skin color, then all their children would be limited to very dark skin color. Similarly, children of parents with very light skin color (aabb) could have only very light skin, since their parents would have only "small a's and b's" to pass on. Parents with genotypes AAbb or aaBB would be limited to producing only children with medium-skin color. But where people of different backgrounds get back together again, as they do in the West Indies, then their children can once again express the full range of variation.
Except for mutational loss of skin color (albinism), then, the human gene pool would be the same now as it might have been at creation-just four genes, A, a, B, b, no more and no less. Actually, there are probably more gene loci and more alleles involved, which would make it even easier to store genetic variability in our created ancestors. As people multiplied over the earth (especially after Babel), the variation "hidden" in the genes of two average-looking parents came to visible expression in different tribes and tongues and nations.

The same would be true of the other created kinds as well: generalized ("average. looking") progenitors created with large and adaptable gene pools would break up into a variety of more specialized and adapted subtypes, as descendants of each created kind multiplied and filled the earth, both after creation and after the Flood.

There is new evidence that members of some species (including the famous peppered moth) may actually "choose" environments suitable for their trait combinations.6 If "habitat choice" behavior were created (and did not have to originate by time, chance, and random mutations!), it would reduce the genetic burden that results when only one trait expression is "fittest," and it would also greatly accelerate the process of diversification within species.
Research and new discoveries have made it increasingly easy for creationists to account for phenomenal species diversification within short periods of time. These same discoveries have only magnified problems in orthodox neo-Darwinian thinking. It is encouraging, but not surprising, therefore, that an increasing number of students and professionals in science are accepting the creation model as the more logical inference from scientific observations and principles.

The scientist who is Christian can also look forward to the end of genetic burden, when the creation, now "subjected to futility" will be "set free from its bondage to decay, and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Romans 8).

(Thank you Dr. Gary E. Parker)
 
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lands21

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For my final question before the 1st rebutal:

As I review our debate, I think we have made a fatal error in looking to much at science, and not enough at scripture. Science has made many claims / proofs over the past years and not all have turned out to be as factual as once stated. However the claims / proofs of scripture stand strong.

Why would someone use science to interpret scripture instead of scripture to interpret science?
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
Very good question, though I think a mis leading one. This is not something I claim to be an expert on though I very much enjoy learning about it. I offer this response:

Not misleading at all. Direct and to the point. A point which you have apparently not understood. Your reply, though lengthy and articulate, does not respond to the question. The citations make only one refernce to genetic bottlenecks and that a highly misleading one.

It is true that several different phenotypes can be generated by as few as four genes. The point is, for any characteristic, is a species limited to four genes or fewer per characteristic? And how long has that been the case?

Some highly conserved genes are very limited in their range. These are usually those that control very basic features such as bilateral body plan in most animals, or the development of essential organs. Other genes show a huge range of variability. In humans, hemoglobins exist in families of hundreds of genes each.

Such a wide array of hemoglobin genes is only possible when there is a sufficient population to host them. The eight people leaving the ark could have at most 10 different hemoglobin genes. (2 for Noah, 2 for his wife, selections, in pairs, of the same four for his sons + 2 each for their three wives.) And it is highly unlikely that they would have that many, for it is probable that there would be repeats and not all would be different.

Can we go from 10 hemoglobin genes to several hundreds of hemoglobin genes in 4,000 years? Given that the only source of new genes is mutation, how likely is that in just 200 generations (allowing 20 years per generation)?

The same question applies, of course, to any locus in the genome where there are more than ten possibilities in the human gene pool. For clean animals, it applies wherever there are more than 28 possibilities at any locus. For wild animals, it applies wherever there are more than 4 alleles for any given gene.

Ayala's figures do not apply here. He is looking at the proportion of the whole genome that shows any variability at all. He does not discuss the range of variability of each gene. This is what is required when speaking of a genetic bottleneck.

The severe reduction in the population, especially of unclean animals, as a result of the flood, means that every gene had to be restricted to a quite limited range of variability. Furthermore, it means that this restriction in gene by gene variability occurred in all species in the ark at the same time. Is this consistent with the current level of variability in the species?

Let me re-iterate that this is a totally different question to that of how many phenotypes can be derived from as few as four alleles of a gene. It is the question of when was the last time a species which now has many more than four alleles for a particular gene restricted to only four, as it must have been immediately post-flood.

Furthermore, several genes are known to exist in multiple copies, and some traits, like color, weight, and intelligence, depend on the cumulative effect of genes at two or more loci. Genes of each different copy and at each different locus could exist in four allelic forms, so the potential for diversity is staggering indeed!

But how many allelic forms exist at each of these loci? If (for humans) it is more than 10, what time period is necessary to generate the extra alleles through mutation?

Even more exciting is the recent discovery that some genes exist as protein coding segments of DNA separated by non-coding sequences called "introns." In addition to other functions, these introns may serve as "cross-over" points for "mixing and matching" subunits in the protein product. If each subunit of such a gene existed in four allelic forms, consider the staggering amount of variation that one gene with three such subunits could produce! It is quite possible that such a clever—and created—mechanism is the means by which the information to produce millions of specific disease-fighting antibodies can be stored in only a few thousand genes.

Again the question is not about how much phenotypic diversity we can get from four allelic forms, but about how long it takes to generate more than four allelic forms in a population. Can we show that for a gene that has hundreds of allelic forms, that it could have had only four as recently as 4,000 years ago---and more importantly---that in fact it did have only four allelic forms of this gene as recently as 4,000 years ago?

The difficulty for creationists is magnified when one includes the thesis that the species in the ark were ancestors of whole groups called "kinds". It becomes not just a matter of looking at the allelic forms of a gene in lions, but at all the allelic forms of the same gene in the whole cat "kind"--dozens of different species.

The material on harmful mutations is a red herring and does not speak to the point. Even a harmful genetic variant is a variant of a gene and must be counted among the possible allelic forms a gene can take.

So, the original question can be reframed as follows:

Since the Flood reduced most animal species to a population of two, which can host at most four allelic variations of any specific gene, and
since there are a number of genes in animal (including human) populations today which have many more than four allelic variations per species (not to mention kinds),
is the variability seen in these genes today consistent with the existence of only four variants in the species/kind at the time of the Flood?

There are 40-plus variants of hemoglobin, for example. All are variants of hemoglobin; that points back to creation. All are less effective oxygen carriers than normal hemoglobin; that points back to a corruption of the created order by time and chance.

Not only is this a serious under-estimate of the number of hemoglobin variants, it is also not true that all variants are less effective oxygen carriers than normal hemoglobin. More effective oxygen carriers are found among populations living at high altitudes. It is a local adaptation to a local environment.

According to a new school of thought, "the neutral theory of molecular evolution," much of the staggering variation within species is due to mutations that are either neutral (without effect) or slightly deleterious.5 Such a theory offers no comfort to the evolutionist trying to build grander life forms from mutations, but it is an expected consequence of the creation-corruption model.

It is an error to describe neutral mutations as having no effect. A neutral mutation can have a significant effect. But it is described as neutral if the phenotypic effect has no bearing on fitness/survivability.

Parker is also misleading when he describes evolutionists as "trying to build grander life forms from mutations". This is not what evolution is about. Anyone who thinks it is has not grasped one of the basic fundamentals of the theory of evolution.

Interestingly, says Kimura, the amount of variation within species is too great for selection models of evolution, but too little for the neutral theory. He suggests that recent "genetic bottlenecks" have set back the "molecular clock" that otherwise ticks off mutations at a relatively constant rate. Scientists who recognize the fossil evidence of a recent global flood are not at all surprised, of course, that data suggest a recent "genetic bottleneck" which only a few of each kind survived!

At last, a mention of genetic bottlenecks. However, it is misleading to say genetic bottlenecks set back the molecular clock. A genetic bottleneck is due to a severe reduction in population, which reduces the availability of genetic alternatives (See illustration in link). It has nothing to do with a change at the molecular level.

Furthermore, he does not define "recent". As noted in the link on genetic bottlenecks, there has been a recent genetic bottleneck in northern elephant seals. But this was due to over-hunting in the 1890s. Far too late to be related to the flood. The cheetah is another animal which exhibits a recent genetic bottleneck, but the estimated date is 10,000 years ago. Far too early to be related to the flood. And these are both "recent" bottlenecks. The human genome shows a bottleneck or bottlenecks occurring about 70,000 years ago, possibly in response to a volcanic winter.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/bottleneck.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

In short, "recent" does not mean "simultaneous".

Finally, Parker is extremely misleading when he glides without notice from speaking of recent bottleneck events to speaking of a single event which induced a genetic bottleneck in multiple species. The unwary, scientifically uninformed reader is thus led to suppose that evidence of recent genetic bottlenecks in a few species is evidence of a massive simultaneous genetic bottleneck in most animal species datable to the time of the flood. This is not at all the case and Parker has provided not a jot of evidence that it is. This sort of obfuscation on the part of a Christian disgusts me.

How long would it take AaBb parents to have children with all the variations in skin color we see today?

Again, not the bottleneck question. The variation in phenotypes based on a few genetic selections is not what bottleneck is about. What we are looking at is the variability of the genes themselves. Is it consistent with a recent and severe reduction in available allelic forms of the genes? Is it found in all species/kinds presumed to be on the ark? Is it found simultaneously in all such species/kinds?

To give an example of the scale of this question, assuming there were only two bats on the ark, and given that there are now about 900 different species of bats, can all the genetic variability in those 900 species be reduced to no more than 4 alleles per gene as recently as 4,000 years ago? And what is the evidence that it actually was?

As I review our debate, I think we have made a fatal error in looking to much at science, and not enough at scripture. Science has made many claims / proofs over the past years and not all have turned out to be as factual as once stated. However the claims / proofs of scripture stand strong.

You have got to be kidding. Each of us has posed one theological question and one scientific question. How is this looking too much to science? The first thing I asked in our private correspondence was if you were willing to take the science seriously. And you want to turn your back on it after attempting to answer just one scientific question? Is this an admission that there is no scientific support for YECism?

If so, the debate ends here, as you have admitted the truth of my opening statement in regard to science.

If not, we need to continue to give science its due weight.


Why would someone use science to interpret scripture instead of scripture to interpret science?

You have already answered this in your response to my first question. Creation is a God-given revelation to all of humankind. Hence, what we know to be true about creation is a truth from God. In Christian culture this has always been a strong motivation to do science in the first place. It is a way of discovering how God did what he did in creation, of learning to "think God's thoughts after him." What is not true cannot reveal or come from that which is true and I believe you will agree that God is Truth and the source of Truth.

Scripture is not used to interpret science, as the point of scripture is not to witness to the details of creation, but to the human dilemma of sin and God's plan for redemption.

Furthermore, scriptural references to nature are not scientific in nature and often appear to be scientifically erroneous. e.g. in Leviticus 11:19, bats are included in a list of birds.

Nor does science interpret scripture. Science never comments on the principal themes of scripture. However, sound science does provide a backdrop against which scripture must be interpreted.

For example, a strictly literal interpretation of what scripture says about the sun is that it actually moves across the sky and that its motion can be temporarily stopped with no consequence other than a long day.

Science tells us that we must interpret this in light of the fact that it is actually the axial rotation of the earth that causes the apparent movement of the sun. Furthermore, the axial rotation of the earth cannot be stopped without many severe repercussions in addition to a longer day.

In short, while science does not interpret scripture, it does provide a context within which scripture must be interpreted. Just as the Hebrew language does, and the history of the ancient near east and their cultures do.

A sound interpretation of scripture must agree with sound science and vice versa.

And that is why it is important to take sound science into account when interpreting scripture.

Finally, there is your own contention that science supports, or at least does not refute, a young earth as you set out in your OP.


Second, I am equally certain, after study of and research in the facts, theories, and methods of geology, a reasonable familiarity with the data and methods of radiometric decay, etc., that there is no geological or physical evidence that demands an old earth. ...I am convinced that the better scientific interpretation is of a young earth. ... Conversely, I am aware of much scientific evidence which is seemingly incompatible with the old-earth view.

If you are going to uphold this point of view, you must do it with science.


So, I am going to ask another scientific question, again based on your reference to the flood laying down the geological record world-wide.

How does a flood origin for the geologic record account for angular unconformities?
 
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lands21

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lands21 said:
This will be a formal debate between:
- Lands21 - Young Earth - 7 day 24 hour creation
- gluadys - Old Earth - God used evolution

Here is the format:

Opening Statement: lands21 (L) then gluadys (G) - 1 post each

Cross Examination: Q&A - 3 Questions in the following format:
1 Q L - 1 A G
1 Q G - 1 A L (until each party has asked and answered 3 questions)

Rebutials: 1 post L, 1 post G

Cross Examination 2: Q&A - 3
Questions in the following format:
1 Q G - 1 A L
1 L G - 1 A G (until each party has asked and answered 3 questions)


Concuding Comments: 1 post L, 1 post G

Each party has 48 hours to make their post, this does not include weekends.

A twin thread will be opened for commentary and anyone wishing to comment on the debate or ask questions of the debaters will be welcome to post in the twin thread. We may also create polls to get a fell on how you think each side is doing.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE ANY POSTS TO THIS DISCUSSION!
Thank you!


You last post is completly out of context within the rules of this debate. (edit) I request you delete your response and stick to the agreed upon format and answer my question / ask your question ONLY.

Thank you.
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
You last post is completly out of context within the rules of this debate. You have not answered the question I have posed, instead you debated my answers, which is not part of this part of the debate. I request you delete your response and stick to the agreed upon format and answer my question posted above.

I have not debated your answer. I have shown that it is not an answer to the question posed.

99% of it is a red herring that does not bear on the question. The brief reference to genetic bottlenecks (which is what the question was about) does not deal with the facts about genetic bottlenecks. In fact, it relies on innuendo not based in evidence to imply this supports a flood scenario when it does not.

By the terms of the debate, I should require you to delete that answer and post one that deals with my question, not a bunch of irrelevancies.

However, I am willing to overlook the fact that you did not understand the question well enough to answer it appropriately.

And I have answered your question. In case you missed it, here is the question and answer again.

Why would someone use science to interpret scripture instead of scripture to interpret science?

You have already answered this in your response to my first question. Creation is a God-given revelation to all of humankind. Hence, what we know to be true about creation is a truth from God. In Christian culture this has always been a strong motivation to do science in the first place. It is a way of discovering how God did what he did in creation, of learning to "think God's thoughts after him." What is not true cannot reveal or come from that which is true and I believe you will agree that God is Truth and the source of Truth.

Scripture is not used to interpret science, as the point of scripture is not to witness to the details of creation, but to the human dilemma of sin and God's plan for redemption.

Furthermore, scriptural references to nature are not scientific in nature and often appear to be scientifically erroneous. e.g. in Leviticus 11:19, bats are included in a list of birds.

Nor does science interpret scripture. Science never comments on the principal themes of scripture. However, sound science does provide a backdrop against which scripture must be interpreted.

For example, a strictly literal interpretation of what scripture says about the sun is that it actually moves across the sky and that its motion can be temporarily stopped with no consequence other than a long day.

Science tells us that we must interpret this in light of the fact that it is actually the axial rotation of the earth that causes the apparent movement of the sun. Furthermore, the axial rotation of the earth cannot be stopped without many severe repercussions in addition to a longer day.

In short, while science does not interpret scripture, it does provide a context within which scripture must be interpreted. Just as the Hebrew language does, and the history of the ancient near east and their cultures do.

A sound interpretation of scripture must agree with sound science and vice versa.

And that is why it is important to take sound science into account when interpreting scripture.

Finally, there is your own contention that science supports, or at least does not refute, a young earth as you set out in your OP.



Second, I am equally certain, after study of and research in the facts, theories, and methods of geology, a reasonable familiarity with the data and methods of radiometric decay, etc., that there is no geological or physical evidence that demands an old earth. ...I am convinced that the better scientific interpretation is of a young earth. ... Conversely, I am aware of much scientific evidence which is seemingly incompatible with the old-earth view.


If you are going to uphold this point of view, you must do it with science.






If you still want me to delete my last post, I will do so on condition that you delete your post #11 and post an answer that is appropriate and relevant to the question asked.
 
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lands21

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I have not debated your answer. I have shown that it is not an answer to the question posed.

This is not allowed as per the agreed upon rules of the debate. If you do not like my answer, that is what the rebuttal stage is for, you can not change the format or ignore the mutually agreed upon rules whenever you please.

I have also had some issues with your response's to my questions, however I will stick to the format and argue them during the rebutal stage.

If you still want me to delete my last post, I will do so on condition that you delete your post #11 and post an answer that is appropriate and relevant to the question asked.

No need to delete, however I am not changing my response. If you do not like it, then state your reasons in the rebuttal stage. Were it should be.

I will answer you last question, and then we can move to the rebuttal stage.

Thank you.
 
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gluadys

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lands21 said:
This is not allowed as per the agreed upon rules of the debate. If you do not like my answer, that is what the rebuttal stage is for, you can not change the format or ignore the mutually agreed upon rules whenever you please.

I have also had some issues with your response's to my questions, however I will stick to the format and argue them during the rebutal stage.



No need to delete, however I am not changing my response. If you do not like it, then state your reasons in the rebuttal stage. Were it should be.

I will answer you last question, and then we can move to the rebuttal stage.

Thank you.

OK. I should note that this is the first time I have seen this debate format and have never used it before, so I am sorry if I inadvertently crossed a line. Will place future comments in rebuttal.
 
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lands21

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How does a flood origin for the geologic record account for angular unconformities?

I apologize, I know my answer is due for this question, but I have not been able to spend the time required on it. I am requesting more time to give an appropriate response.

I await your answer.
 
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I have asked lands21 to indicate whether he wishes to continue the debate or withdraw since it has been a week of additional time, while the original agreement was a 48 hr. turnaround.

It would be regrettable if he has to withdraw. Nevertheless, life happens, and perhaps something has come up which blocks his further contribution.

Let us keep him in our prayers and hope he can return to the debate soon.
 
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