Again, the entire debate between Catholcism and Protestantism hinges upon salvation

Athanasias

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Wait a second, I thought you were mysteriously a Baptist at CF for a while. I seem to recall someone pointing that out to you and getting no explanation.


LOL all that was my experiment to try to understand how protestants think, I never was anything but a Catholic but I argued like I was baptist for a while as a experiment to see their strength and weakness of the Catholic and protestant position. I actually got booted off of here for 3 months for that. but it was fun!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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CryptoLutheran

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2 Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This isn't directed at the picture only.

Such as those who deny the efficacy of Holy Baptism?

Simply quoting a passage which talks about false prophets and heretics does not a valid critique of a theological position make. After all, it's those who reject the historic position of Baptism who are committing hairesis. The passage could easily be turned around toward those who reject the Christian teaching on Holy Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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After all, it's those who reject the historic position of Baptism who are committing hairesis.

-CryptoLutheran
At least I have some hair :D

Isaiah 3:12 My people, ones exacting of him, unweaned child, and women they rule in them.
My people, ones making happy thee, ones leading-straying and way of thy path they swallow up

Reve 9:7 And the likenesses of the locusts like horses having been made ready into battle, and upon the heads of them, as crowns, like gold, and the faces of them as faces of men,
8 and they had hairs as hairs of women, and the teeth of them were as of lions,
[Isaiah 3:12]
 
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princess_ballet

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I plead with Catholics... the entire debate between us hinges upon salvation alone. Sure there are secondary matters, but this is the key thing...

You think it's evil that we preach salvation by faith alone, but that's what is biblical. When a person is saved they'll produce good works, but you don't do good works to become saved.

Infant baptism isn't needed for salvation, God has to open the heart first, and after you're saved, you must be baptized only to show you're faith.

Please reject the false doctrines of Roman Catholicism, look to the Lord alone to save you, and be saved, then reach out to those that are still holding to the false doctrines.

^_^:doh:^_^
 
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Athanasias

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His heart is in the right place but he does not really understand what we teach and would do well to take a college class on Catholic theology from Ave Maria U to see his misconceptions. So we should pray for Mr Bob Jones. Some people have a conversion of the heart first then later after they study the actual faith they have the conversion of the intellect. Alot of converts have this.
 
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Chris81

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LOL all that was my experiment to try to understand how protestants think, I never was anything but a Catholic but I argued like I was baptist for a while as a experiment to see their strength and weakness of the Catholic and protestant position. I actually got booted off of here for 3 months for that. but it was fun!

Wow that sounds like a lot of fun! Maybe I should pretend to be a stereotypical Catholic and troll around the site to see what makes these Catholics tick. Or, I could just do what most everyone else does on this site and just ask Catholics what they believe.:doh:
 
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Bob Jones Student

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Oh good heavens.

Everyone here read:

The Gospel
According to Rome

It's not a perfect book, but maybe it'll get some good ideas across

LittlelambofJesus, how do we reach these people? We show them, clearly from the scriptures that salvation is by faith alone, and they run back to what the church teaches which completely confuses the situation. Ephesians 2:8-9 can be shown, and then the Catholics twist it. I could even use official Catholic Bibles and they still won't get it.

Nevertheless, let's do this... What do these verses say to you, those who are Catholic:

New American Bible (One of the Official Catholic Bibles)

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

All of Romans 4:

1 1 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 3 4 A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record." 9 Does this blessedness 4 apply only to the circumcised, or to the uncircumcised as well? Now we assert that "faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or not? He was not circumcised, but uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, 12 as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised. 13 It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. 14 For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. 5 16 For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, 17 as it is written, "I have made you father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. 18 He believed, hoping against hope, that he would become "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "Thus shall your descendants be." 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body as (already) dead (for he was almost a hundred years old) and the dead womb of Sarah. 20 He did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; 6 rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God 21 and was fully convinced that what he had promised he was also able to do. 22 That is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 But it was not for him alone that it was written that "it was credited to him"; 24 it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification.

Romans 5:

1 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace 2 with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
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Athanasias

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Oh good heavens.

Everyone here read:

The Gospel According to Rome

It's not a perfect book, but maybe it'll get some good ideas across

LittlelambofJesus, how do we reach these people? We show them, clearly from the scriptures that salvation is by faith alone, and they run back to what the church teaches which completely confuses the situation. Ephesians 2:8-9 can be shown, and then the Catholics twist it. I could even use official Catholic Bibles and they still won't get it.

Nevertheless, let's do this... What do these verses say to you, those who are Catholic:

New American Bible (One of the Official Catholic Bibles)

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

All of Romans 4:

1 1 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 3 4 A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record." 9 Does this blessedness 4 apply only to the circumcised, or to the uncircumcised as well? Now we assert that "faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or not? He was not circumcised, but uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them (also) righteousness might be credited, 12 as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised. 13 It was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes from faith. 14 For if those who adhere to the law are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation. 5 16 For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, 17 as it is written, "I have made you father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. 18 He believed, hoping against hope, that he would become "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "Thus shall your descendants be." 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body as (already) dead (for he was almost a hundred years old) and the dead womb of Sarah. 20 He did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; 6 rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God 21 and was fully convinced that what he had promised he was also able to do. 22 That is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 But it was not for him alone that it was written that "it was credited to him"; 24 it was also for us, to whom it will be credited, who believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification.

Romans 5:

1 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace 2 with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Actually the gospel according to Rome by James MCarthy is not accurate at all. Reading Catholic sources not anti-Catholic sources help but really one needs to go to class and see how Catholics pray and study and what we study. One would do well to take a course in college on Catholic theology from a devout Catholic university like Ave Maria University or Fransican Univeristy and then they would see exactly what is taught and why. This would help them clear up any misconceptions and show the follies in James McCarthy books..

BTW If yall are in St. Louis I invite you all to see for yourself and ask the professors of Catholci theology questions for free:

Ave Maria University St. Louis campus for IPT Grad school in theology is having a open house Nov 12th-14th. Come sit in and listen to some great Theology lectures by outstanding orthodox Catholic professors Classes will be on Genesis and the theology of the the Fall of Man, St. John of the Cross, and the book of Leviticus.
 
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Bob Jones Student

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Actually the gospel according to Rome by James MCarthy is not accurate at all. Reading Catholic sources not anti-Catholic sources help but really one needs to go to class and see how Catholics pray and study and what we study. One would do well to take a course in college on Catholic theology from a devout Catholic university like Ave Maria University or Fransican Univeristy and then they would see exactly what is taught and why. This would help them clear up any misconceptions and show the follies in James McCarthy books..

BTW If yall are in St. Louis I invite you all to see for yourself and ask the professors of Catholci theology questions for free:

Ave Maria University St. Louis campus for IPT Grad school in theology is having a open house Nov 12th-14th. Come sit in and listen to some great Theology lectures by outstanding orthodox Catholic professors Classes will be on Genesis and the theology of the the Fall of Man, St. John of the Cross, and the book of Leviticus.



So I'm going to try this, but keep in mind I'm only saying this to get people thinking...

What if everyone that accepts the Catholic doctrines, etc. are wrong, and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the Catholic Church was wrong, that you were deceived, and that those who preached and taught salvation by faith alone were indeed correct, and that all those who believed upon Jesus alone were the only saved ones?
 
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Dark_Lite

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So I'm going to try this, but keep in mind I'm only saying this to get people thinking...

What if everyone that accepts the Catholic doctrines, etc. are wrong, and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the Catholic Church was wrong, that you were deceived, and that those who preached and taught salvation by faith alone were indeed correct, and that all those who believed upon Jesus alone were the only saved ones?

Pascal's wager is silly.
 
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Athanasias

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So I'm going to try this, but keep in mind I'm only saying this to get people thinking...

What if everyone that accepts the Catholic doctrines, etc. are wrong, and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the Catholic Church was wrong, that you were deceived, and that those who preached and taught salvation by faith alone were indeed correct, and that all those who believed upon Jesus alone were the only saved ones?


You Can't really know or begin to even understand what Catholics beleive unless you really take a good college class on Catholic theology from a faithful Catholic school and see what we teach and how we pray and how our life is. I invite you to do so then make your judgment.

So I invite you or any one again :

Ave Maria University St. Louis campus for IPT Grad school in theology is having a open house Nov 12th-14th. Come sit in and listen to some great Theology lectures by outstanding orthodox Catholic professors on the Fall of Man, St. John of the Cross, and the book of Leviticus.
 
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Athanasias

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Pascal's Wager isn't any less silly than it was 25 minutes ago.


Actually pascal was catholic and his wager is a good one. Its not the strongest reasons to believe in God but it will get us to think and its logical. Catholic philosophers like my Thomist teacher Dr Feingold and Dr Peter Kreeft talk about this. so its not silly its logical.
 
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Bob Jones Student

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You Can't really know or begin to even understand what Catholics beleive unless you really take a good college class on Catholic theology from a faithful Catholic school and see what we teach and how we pray and how our life is. I invite you to do so then make your judgment.

So I invite you or any one again :

Ave Maria University St. Louis campus for IPT Grad school in theology is having a open house Nov 12th-14th. Come sit in and listen to some great Theology lectures by outstanding orthodox Catholic professors on the Fall of Man, St. John of the Cross, and the book of Leviticus.


Ok, let's steer away from this constant invitation to a Catholic school... please just answer the questions posted :thumbsup: :amen:
 
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laconicstudent

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Ok, let's steer away from this constant invitation to a Catholic school... please just answer the questions posted :thumbsup: :amen:

But you have insisted that your goal is to save people here from their heresies. Wouldn't a Catholic university fair be the perfect opportunity for a Bob Jones student like yourself to do that?
 
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Athanasias

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But you have insisted that your goal is to save people here from their heresies. Wouldn't a Catholic university fair be the perfect opportunity for a Bob Jones student like yourself to do that?


Good point. and he may found out that what he think is heresy is not.
 
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Erose

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So I'm going to try this, but keep in mind I'm only saying this to get people thinking...

What if everyone that accepts the Catholic doctrines, etc. are wrong, and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the Catholic Church was wrong, that you were deceived, and that those who preached and taught salvation by faith alone were indeed correct, and that all those who believed upon Jesus alone were the only saved ones?
Let me think. What if everyone that accepts the doctrine you believe are wrong and deceived, and when you die, the Lord tells you that the heresy you are part of is wrong and you have been deceived and that those who followed the teachings of the Apostles where correct and the only saved ones where the ones that followed Jesus through those teachings of the Apostles?

What if God says to you that yes you believed in me, but even the devils believe that I am the Lord and when they hear my name they tremble. And since you have faith, but with no works or fruit from that faith, then your faith is dead and there is no life within you.

Catholics believe in Jesus. We also believe that it is only through Jesus Christ that we are saved. But we also believe that God calls us to do something with that belief and the graces that comes from justification. As Jesus taught us in the parable of the talents, He gives us grace, but He doesn't want us to sit on it. He wants us to use that grace to go out into the world to do His work. He also wants us to be Holy as He is Holy. Holy people do not live in sin do they? And when Holy people fall into sin which the Bible tells us we are going to do, then holy people fall down upon their knees and beg God to forgive us. Then God forgives us, picks us back up on our feet and tells us to get back out there and do His Holy work and follow His Holy life. That is what Catholics believe.

As Jesus said there will be many that call to me Lord, Lord and He will tell them that I know you not.
 
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chestertonrules

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What about you Dark Lite? Why not just look to Jesus alone to save you, and not cling to traditions, false works, etc, etc.


Jesus started a Church, gave this Church authority, and told us to listen to the Church.

Why would you ignore the teachings of Jesus?
 
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