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after reading the bible i think i am loosing my faith.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by rockyjohn, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. trishshaw

    trishshaw keep getting back up!!

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    Or Angels and Demons... those books have been known to create doubters
     
  2. jgleason

    jgleason Yahshua=Yah is Salvation

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    I do not mean to be inflammatory or start any trouble, but you all are wrong, and none of you will ever "figure it out", it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and until then you will be just comparing carnal ideaes, concepts, theories among men.

    Isaiah 55:9
    8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Yahweh/the LORD.
    9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Isaiah 45:5-10
    5I am Yahweh/the LORD, and there is none else, there is no Elohim/God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am Yahweh/the LORD, and there is none else. 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yahweh/the LORD do all these things. 8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I Yahweh/the LORD have created it. 9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

    Isaiah 54:16
    16Behold, (Yahweh/the Lord) I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

    Let us all step back and consider how great our creator is and let him do the work, all praise and glory in the name of Yahshua the Messiah! Halleluyah!
     
  3. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Moderator Supporter

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    ...and so does Ancient Aliens...you seen that show? Really makes me question a lot of things :|
     
  4. icedbun

    icedbun Newbie

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    Good point there and well taken. BUT, is this then not taking the responsibility for deciding what is a good action away from God and making that judgement ourselves?

    You mention Abraham who was prepared to do just what god told him. He didn't think to himself, 'heck, this is a bad idea - it is probably not God tellling me to do this.' No, he got on with doing as he had been told. That God then did not require the killing at the end does not mean the Abraham had not already done what he had been asked to do.

    A more recent case of God instructing a person is, of course, George Bush. God told him, Bush says, to invade Iraq - something which he did to the effect of huge numbers of deaths and much suffering. I am not getting into politics here and do not want to discuss this war, but am simply mentioning another person who did what God told him.

    So, what this comes down to is this - are we the judge of whether what God tells us is moral before we do it - in which case we are judging God?
     
  5. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Moderator Supporter

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    Do you have any faith that what Bush said was true? I dont.

    Im sure if God is really and truly speaking to a person they'd know it. I am also sure that a lot of people claim "God told me to this" or "God told me to do that" are lying and making God into their own scapegoat to do evil deeds that their hearts' desire.

    We are not to question God, but we do it all the time. I think it's about how you question God: whether it be in hostility toward His Will or a submissive request for knowledge (like Solomon or David).

    It's not about judging God, it's more about discerning His Will in which He has already revealed to us. I will say it again (as I have said many times on this board): You cannot love your neighbor as yourself and kill them at the same time.
     
  6. icedbun

    icedbun Newbie

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    Well, I agree with you - I won't trust Bush with a barge pole! The point was, though, that the only way we have to judge if someone, even ourselves, has been told to do something by God is by using our own judgement of right and wrong. Thus, although God is the embodiment of moral perfection, we humans never know if we have got the message right and then have to judge it by our own standards.
     
  7. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    Well, with respect to Abraham, it wasn't just a test of his loyalty...there is a LOT more to it than just that.

    Also, the quote I put was from another forum I post on.
     
  8. badtim

    badtim Vatican Warlock Assassin

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    the only doubt anyone should have regarding those books is doubt in those who believe they are anything other than fiction - and not particularly awesome fiction at that ;)
     
  9. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    ^^

    And that is why I reject the New Atheist movement and it's torchbearers as serious critiques of Christianity. There was a time when I would have felt the need to rebut every point there, but now that I've come to the conclusion that the NA movement isn't even attacking my belief system ( or that of anyone I know who claims to be a Christian), I pretty much regard the NA movement and it's proponents (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc) as crazy people who are (A) ranting something that they don't even think exists, and (B) unwilling to take the time and effort to really understand what they are attacking, and as a result of that making themselves look like fools and (C) not really saying anything, since their attacks are unfounded, uneducated and not attacks on anything I or anyone else who is a sincere follower of Christ professes to believe. Academically, intelectually and in most every other way, the New Atheist movement is one of the weakest 'intellectual' movements of recent times and resembles a religion moreso than the belief systems it attacks (Christianity in particular).

    Though based on the posters number and style of posts, I believe we are dealing with a troll, and not someone interested in actual dialogue.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  10. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    I don't regard you're points as somehting that concern me, because as I stated, they do not attack what I believe; you cannot make up attributes based on out-of-context verses, ascribe them to followers, and attack based on that. So yes, I, don't plan on refuting your points. They are false points.

    "All atheists are weak, cowardly individuals who simply want to live a sinful lifestyle by not acknowledging any kind of ultimate moral code or answer for anything in their life. It's just an excuse to do whatever they want."

    Would you not agree that that bears a striking similarity to what you posted, in terms of applying false attributes to followers of a certain worldview?
     
  11. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    Correct.

    Did he literally catch anti-aircraft fire?
     
  12. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    I don't play Black Ops (I still maintain that COD2, the WW2 one, is their best game). Nor am I a Gingerich fan.

    I'll make my point here: did he literally? The words are here, period (to paraphrase you). Any attempt to contextualize them, by your own reasoning, would be an excuse...or is context actually important in figuring out what texts mean?

    Or has Newt Gingerich actually taken AA fire, as well as hostile flak vests being thrown at him?
     
  13. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    Im going to paste some commentary here (NOT MINE) that had to do with this very subject.

    "XXX supposes, as so many atheists today do, that any rational observer should be able to clearly understand the meaning of Christ's words (or the reality of God's 'existence' and nearness etc.); Christ, by contrast, spoke in parables that those embracing darkness would see but not see. If indeed they saw and rejected, there would be no other recourse but apocalyptic battle, of which the time is not yet; therefore the Son of God remains hidden and though the people of God become the object of the world's hatred still they will not be destroyed before the time.


    “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3)

    The weakest spot in his position is the claim that God should be "morally bound "to be perfectly clear to all observers on an epistemological level. Why should God cast pearls to those whose faces are set to reject Him? Is that really so "logical" or "ethically irrefutable"? If God or Christ are obligated to present an unambiguous and clear message, they are already condemned, since scripture affirms they set out to present quite the opposite (Christ's speaking in parables/Mk 12:40-41; cf.). XXX will claim this is "convenient" for you and/or scripture but will have a hard time grounding his false moral absolute (atheists often do, but they are usually moral absolutists in one manner or another), but "convenient" or not, he's going to need to argue with the Christian faith as it is witnessed to in the prophets and the Gospel (hidden God/ parables/ wise cannot see when babes can in 1 Cor 2) AS THEY ARE GIVEN if he is to suppose he has presented a real challenge to them AS THEY ARE GIVEN, not to mention -if push comes to shove, the likes of St. Ephrem the Syrian, Barth, Torrance, Bloesch et al."
     
  14. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    Nah, that's a weak definition of faith. Plus, it was written to me personally and not as a public declaration or proof, but I thought the point remained.

    Faith does NOT equal belief in that which cannot be proven, on the contrary, when revelation is given and proof not asked for in the Bible, kings and leaders are rebuked for not being skeptical.

    "Faith in the biblical sense is substantive, based on the knowledge that the One in whom that faith is placed has proven that He is worthy of that trust. In its essence, faith is a confidence in the person of Jesus Christ and in His power, so that even when His power does not serve my end, my confidence in Him remains because of who He is."
    - Ravi Zacharias
     
  15. Walter Kovacs

    Walter Kovacs Justice is coming, no matter what we do.

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    Faith in the BIBLICAL sense, which is what we are talking about here. But does the quote say if you believe something then it's true? Does it mention belief at all? The Hebrew/Greek texts use the words trust for faith; faith has really not meant belief but in recent times, rather it's historical meaning has been trust based on knowledge. To understand the concept of Christianity, you have to understand that BELIEF in something is not what I mean when I say faith; I will NEVER say to take somehting on "faith," or use it as an excuse to not think critically.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  16. noweeds

    noweeds Newbie

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    If we take a look at the main figures of the old testament we'll see that a lot of the people who are close to God's heart were some pretty messed up folks. Noah drank, Ambraham and his decendants lied, Moses took God's power for himself, David cheated and murdered his mistresses husband, the list goes on for miles. This only attests to the fact that man IS failiable. We are going to mess up and yet still we can be counted as men and women after God's own heart.

    Trust me brother I have struggled with the same thing, even so far as to confess my unbelief at times. Adk God to give you clarity and patiently wait for it, being open to whatever comes your way and consider it as best you can with His guidance, especially His word.

    The pharo was in charge of a kingdom. Just as the actions of parents affect their children so the actions of a leader affect his people.
    I think God was mad that the Jews were inslaved because they were his chosen people...period. They were chosen to rule over other peoples and so the right was theirs. Jesus's blood has made us all sons of Abraham, grafting us to the same tree. Therefore all who believe are now a part of God's chosen people. So, through Christ all those things were negated, but if we don't follow His word we can be cut of and a new branch can be put in our place.

    When Jesus prayed to God he spoke of Him as the Father, signifying that Jesus was under His Father, that there is a part of God that is higher even than Jesus. And through Jesus all things were made, I'm not sure if that includes the divine wisdom, but what ever Jesus said was true because He only spoke what the Father had told Him to speak at ALL times. It's hard to understand, trust me, but keep seeking his face and don't lose faith in the bible man. It's His word.
    Someone said that you really have to look at the bible as a whole and not in individual pieces. Evem though we mess up, laws and customs are crazy, and we don't understand everything, everything that happens works out for God's benifit and just as when a good father is benifited so are his children. That's why we've got to try and win hearts for God and glorify Him.

    I think a lot of the time we look for things to disagree with and focus on the negative aspects of the bible, but judge with a sober mind. God really has taken care of everything for us. If we simply follow the laws of our leaders, so long as they donlt contradict the laws and fundamental truths of God, He'll take care of us. And we don't have to worry about those who prosper because of wicked ways...He tells us not to. All we have to focus on is speaking on His behalf, and we may not even be able to do that all the time like Peter. But just as Paul said just because we are free of the law doen't mean we shouldn't strive with every fiber not to sin. Just cause Peter denied Christ doesn't give us the ok, but it does tell us that we are definitely going to mess up, that without God we are nothing, and we've gotttttaaaa trust Him.

    I hope you find some of this helpful and I could only comment on what I know. Keep asking and He'll keep giving. Know that without Him we wouldn't be here and His word is one of the most powerfuls we have to understand Him, and I think that takes time.
     
  17. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Moderator Supporter

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    But you have to understand that it's not "our own" judgement, but the judgements that God has laid out regarding how He will judge us.

    Biblical faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 to the letter.
     
  18. CDMartinJr

    CDMartinJr Newbie

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    Hebrews 11 is an excellent definition of faith! We believe, not based on blind belief, but on evidential belief. Based on the Scriptures, we cannot fashion a God who is all judgment without mercy, nor can we fashion a God who is all mercy with no judgment. The Scriptures portray a God who consistently has compassion on His creation, but also deals with sin in sometimes drastic ways.

    One thing that really jumped out at me a couple of years ago, however, is how slow God really is to anger. Based on the chronology of Genesis, mankind was degenerating into a selfish, murderous, godless mess for roughly one thousand years before the Flood came.

    Israel had roughly nine hundred years of turning from God, turning back to God, turning from God, turning back, etc. before the Exile. And during that nine hundred years God used His prophets to try and bring His people back to Him, reminding them that He was a God of mercy.

    So far, we've had two-thousand years since Christ ascended to be His witnesses and to lead people to His mercy and grace. We know that a time of wrath and judgment is coming, but there have been two thousand years of what we commonly call "The Age of Grace." If that isn't "slow to anger," then I don't know what is. . . .
     
  19. Achilles6129

    Achilles6129 Veteran

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    Indeed. It is not uncommon for an individual unfamiliar with God to be "shocked" at the "brutality" of it all. But I have news for them. They're actually the ones who are brutal.

    In point of fact, I believe you were shocked at what you read for several reasons which you may want to consider:

    "20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." Jn. 3:20

    "7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom. 8:7

    Another one of your problems is that you are coming to the Scriptures all the while denying what the Scriptures really state. In other words, it is apparent from your post that you believe that there is some good in the human race. There is no good in the human race. The only definition of good is God:

    "18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mk. 10:18

    "4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest." Rev. 15:4

    There is no good in the human race:

    "9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer. 17:9

    "5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 6:5

    "11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Mt. 7:11

    "4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:" Gal. 1:4

    "19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 Jn. 5:19

    Now that we've established these Biblical principles, we'll move on to the rest of your post:

    Quite. One of my many "beefs" with the pastors of modern christianity is that they attempt to seduce and beguile people into the faith without telling them anything about what real Christianity is all about or what the Bible really states. That sounds like what happened to you.

    Because you were seduced or beguiled into the faith by some emotionally-wrenching modern christian preacher, in my opinion. It is good that you are finally starting to examine what real Christianity is all about.

    Nope. The Old Testament is just as true as the New Testament, and the Old Testament is just as much the word of God as the New Testament is. Therefore, being "afraid" of the Old Testament is harmful. If you cannot reconcile the Old Testament with your version of Christianity and realize that every single act performed in the Old Testament by God is righteous on a scale which you cannot imagine then it is best for you to leave Christianity.

    You're correct.

    I believe that this is because you are interpreting what you read through the prism of your own evil heart. See a few of the verses I quoted up above. In addition, I believe that your idea of the "God of the OT" is just a reflection of the monstrous evil that is in your own heart.

    Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God allowed Pharaoh to harden his heart. Anytime anything happens, God may be said to *allow* said event to happen. This is the intent of the text in Exodus. In other words, God wasn't going to soften Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh wasn't obedient to him. Therefore, Pharaoh's heart remained hardened. Therefore, God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh was not obedient, which would have led to a softening of his heart.

    Nonsense. I went into the reason why *God* hardened Pharaoh's heart up above. He was disobedient.

    God didn't "lighten" his heart because he was disobedient. In short, God gave him exactly what he deserved.

    Firstly, the Egyptians killed every Hebrew male born for an unstated amount of time (Ex. 1:16). Having killed other people's children, it is certainly just for them to lose their own in like manner.

    In addition, God did not "murder children." Your accusation here stems from a complete misunderstanding of what death actually is. This, I may add, was also something that the Jews in Jn. 8, who are described by Jesus Christ as "children of the devil" also had, apparently. Here we go:

    "51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." Jn. 8:51

    Jesus Christ claims that if you obey his gospel you will never die. Since anyone who keeps Jesus Christ's gospel is defined as righteous, we may assert that anyone who is righteous will never die. Since any individual under a certain age who was "killed" in the slaughter of the firstborn could not be judged for their sins, they were thus defined as "righteous" and cannot die. In other words, the Egyptian children did not die whatsoever. They only died by your definition of what death is.

    Your understanding of death is an exact replica of the children of Satan's understanding of death. After Jesus Christ claims that the righteous can never die, the children of Satan respond:

    "52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death." Jn. 8:52

    Are you beginning to see? Death as you define it is not really death at all. Abraham never died. Neither did any of the prophets. The only thing that they can do is live.

    You have fallen for an old argument made by the children of Satan (Jn. 8:52). The refutation is in Jn. 8:51 (and also at the end of Mt. 16).

    May I also add that the same people who make this ridiculous argument that God "murdered children" support the murder of countless millions of unborn children through something called "abortion" which the nations of the world (notably, the U.S.) are absolutely in love with.

    Turns out the human race is more evil than they thought they were.

    As for the rest of your post, I will leave other posters to deal with the questions you have raised (some already have) since responding to it would take too much time for me currently. Suffice it to say that everything you have raised is either based upon a misinterpretation (such as your comments on slavery) or a mischaracterization.


    Oh right. Since all Christians contemplate those things, right?

    You've never seen a good answer for, or you've never wanted to see a good answer for?

    Stop right there. I gave the correct explanation to your preposterous accusations of murder up above in several different ways (you can even glean the explanation from the verses that I quoted), and I will not repeat them here.

    As to your accusation of rape, something that the human race is quite fond of: This is something that you're reading into the Scriptures, again sickly projected from your own tremendously evil heart. Elsewhere, you attempted to state that God "supported rape" in Numbers 31.

    What you were unaware of is that the women who were "kept alive for the Israelites" in Numbers 31 were kept alive to be taken care of, not to be raped as your desperately evil heart interpreted. Elsewhere, OT law affirms this, and one poster did a good job of posting OT stipulations about captured individuals.

    I guess you just can't read the Bible, can you? Because Jesus Christ already answers all of your questions, which I bet you think are really wise and well-informed. God is the only definition of good - see the verses I quoted up above.

    Your definition of death is wrong.

    God never murdered an innocent baby. Again, your definition of death is incorrect.

    No, he did not. Not one single righteous individual has ever really died. Not a one.

    God would never tell you to do a wrong act. Only the human race murders and desires to kill - God does not. To attempt to compare a human being killing someone with God killing someone is completely irrational. As I said, with God the righteous never die and cannot die - the human race attempts to kill the righteous all the time. Case closed.
     
  20. The Outlier

    The Outlier Regular Member

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    As for Pharoah, God used a heart already prone to hardness to do His will. We have to not just read, but also read into the Bible. A similar situation happened to Baalam- God told him not to do something, but Baalam insisted so God basically said: Alright, do it and see what happens. The same approach is often used toward children. Our definition of good and evil must come from Him; not from us. We don't know anything about good or evil.

    We are not God's boss, He is ours. We may not like everything He does, but its still better to be on His good side than His bad side. Needless to say, I will be praying for you.
     
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