Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay.

Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay?

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JeremiahsBulldog

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Scrupulosity was mentioned in several previous posts.

It is real, a type of cumpulsive disorder.

Sometimes, it could come as an attack from the demons, who always want us to lose hope in our salvation.
Sometimes it's a mental illness. And there is a danger of that, if one focuses too much on his sins and the toll-houses.

Martin Luther fell into this disorder as a RC monk. He actually got depressed from thinking too much about his sins.

The RC Church in Martin Luther's time

The RC Church didn't help much. By Luther's time, it had turned the Orthodox doctrine of salvation it once had - that of cooperation between our will and God's - into a whole obstacle course.

FIRST, there was the doctrine of God. Just as you have an essence (the stuff you are made of) and energies (How you interact with the world around you), so does God. For us Orthodox, God's essence is utterly transcendent (above and beyond all creation) and unknowable (a mystery never to be solved). God's energies are also mysterious, but we can "know" them by their interaction with us.
As an illustration, imagine a town without any physicists. No-one in that town will truly understand how gravity works. But everyone there can "Know" gravity by experiencing its effect. Similarly, we'll never understand God's energies, but we can experience them. They are God's interaction with His creation.

In the middle-ages, the Western Church lumped God's essence and energies together, by teaching that they are the same thing. This can lead to one of two things.

(1) They could emphasize God's transcendent essence. But if His energies are the same as His essence, it would mean that His energies are also infinitely transcendent. This cuts God off from His creation. Or . . .
(2) They could emphasize God's energies interacting with creation. But if His essence is the same as His energies, that would mean that His essence interacts with creation. That amounts to Pantheism.

The scholastic theologians chose option #1. But now, their God was disconnected from creation. So they invented "created grace". Created grace is a kind of Divine "Plasticine". God could make as much of it as He wants, form it into anything He wants, and shoot it into His cosmos. By Luther's time, various created graces had been identified and cataloged.

THEN there was your personal, heavenly bank-account. You had to balance it every day by doing more good deeds than bad ones. Even the smallest bad deed had to be counter-balanced. The easiest way to balance your account was through confession, which wiped out most of the "red ink" of your bad deeds.
If you had too many bad deeds in your account, the Church had a short-cut to help you balance them. If you did a small spiritual act - like saying the "Our Father" or donating money for the upkeep of St. Peter's Basilica - the Church could then dip into a special heavenly bank-account, owned jointly by Christ and the saints, called supererogatory works. It could take a dollop of created grace from that account and deposit it to yours. This heavenly charitable donation from the Church to you, was called an indulgence.

FINALLY, when you died, God would sit in His courtroom as Judge, you would stand in the witness-box, and He would open your heavenly bank-book. If there were more good works than bad works in it, He would say, "you are forgiven", erase all your bad works, and send you off to Heaven. If there were more bad works than good, He would get really angry and punish you by sending you to Hell.

But what if your bank-book was almost, but not quite balanced? What if you left some small bad deeds unconfessed; or had confessed everything, but didn't have time to do a few small good deeds to balance the book? Then, the Lord, after stroking His long white beard for a while, would turn to you, and with a jolly smile and a wink, would say, "Aw, shucks! That's close enough. You're forgiven". But that didn't mean you went to Heaven. Instead, you had to spend some time in Purgatory, where the good Lord would char-broil you until He was satisfied that, by your suffering, you had balanced your bank-account to perfection. Only then would your bad deeds be erased, and you would get to go to Heaven.

Given all of the above, no wonder poor Brother Martin got depressed!

Martin Luther's solution

He invented the equally false doctrine of "salvation by faith alone". From now on, one didn't have to be an accountant to go to Heaven. One simply had to stand before God and admit that: (a) he was a sinner, and (b) he could never do enough good works to earn his salvation (take that, RCC!). Then he had to ask Jesus (apparently Dr. Luther and our Saviour were on a first--name basis) to be his "personal Lord and Saviour". At this point, Jesus would oblige by sending His (created?) Saving Grace. One effect of this grace was that the person praying would become utterly convinced of his salvation. This meant that, in practice, one could "pray the prayer", get convinced that he was saved, and - Bingo! - he was saved! Never mind that, for some, it seemed as if he had simply convinced himself that he was saved.

Calvinism

Other reformers, like former RC priest John Calvin, went even further. They believed in salvation by Divine Election. This meant that, Before God created the Universe, He held a lottery for everyone who would ever be born (even though they weren't born yet). The winners - the "elect" - got a free pass to Heaven, which they could use upon their deaths. The losers - the "vessels of wrath" - were out of luck.

The Orthodox solution to scrupulosity

FIRST, don't get rid of traditional doctrines. That's never a good idea. For instance, imagine a man lives near a forest and visits it often. Some visitors come to his house. He tells them, "be careful of the wolves in the forest. If you go there, protect yourselves by travelling in groups, or some other way". Some of the visitors use this advise wisely. But others might develop an irrational fear of wolves. Does that mean that he shouldn't warn anyone about the wolves?

SECOND, we don't need toll-houses to make us overly scrupulous. Biblical passages like Mt. 5:17-20 work just as well (at least for me).

FINALLY, we should learn the EO doctrine of salvation. If the Orthodox Church ever gets a catchphrase for its doctrine of salvation, it would probably be, "Salvation by God's mercy, through synergy". Synergy, of course, refers to the cooperation between our will and God's will.

(1)We fight the devil by submitting to God, and uniting our will/energy with His uncreated Will/energy/Grace, starting with prayer. (Jms. 4:7-10).
(2)As our will becomes more "in tune" with the Lord's will, God grants us greater virtues - the "Armor of God". (Eph. 6:10-18). The overly-scrupulous should pay particular attention to the shield of faith, and the helmet of salvation. These offer strong protection against the despair that the demons try to put into us.
(3)Finally, we will be able to say, "God is with us, who could be against us? . . . ". (Rm. 8:31-39).


In cases where scrupulosity does come from a mental illness, the person in question might need to be referred to a mental health professional. This must be done with compassion and without judgement.
Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that, because of a few cases, we should hide the truth from everybody.
 
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JeremiahsBulldog

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Hmm, toll house! That gets a Yay! from me on the poll. :yum:

165827-albums4706-47134.jpg


HERESY! There should be 20 toll-houses! I count only six here!;)
.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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As earlier posts mentioned, we must distinguish two things about the toll-house doctrine.

One, the imagery with which it is described, which is metaphorical (see jckstraw72 post #148).

Two, the substance of the doctrine, which is real and, as jckstraw72 wrote in post #91, based on the saints' experience, not speculation. It concerns the very real war between God and the Devil (Rv. 12:7-17). This war is, according to Fr. John Romanides, the whole basis of EO theology.(see, The Ancestral Sin). Even Protestant writers are becoming aware of this war (see, God At War).

After his rebellion against God, Satan also made war on us by asking for and receiving God's permission to: tempt us (Job. 1:6-12) and even the saints (Lu. 22:31-32). He, and his demons, can trap people and hold them captive to their will (2 Tim 2:25-26). In fact, they prey on us like lions (1Pt. 5:8).

He even has the power of death (Hb. 2:14). Sinners are not taken by angels to heaven, but end up in hades being tormented (Lu. 16:22-23). who drags them there and torments them? The Devil and his demons.

To be "allowed" is not the same as to be "appointed". God never appointed Satan as a judge or prosecutor. He simply allowed Satan to exercise his free-will. The Devil then appointed himself, as an unjust accuser of man.

As such, he attacks, after their deaths, not only sinners - but also saints! (Jude. 1:9).

He even dared to attack our Lord, and - by the Lord's allowance - caused Him to be crucified and even took His soul to hades, briefly. It was only then that Christ released the Old Testament Saints from Satan's grip. (Jn. 14:30-31, 1Pt. 3:18-20).

Given this incessant war that the Devil carries on, what do you think he will do to us sinners at the hour of our death? He won't just "back off" and call a "time-out". War is not a game, and what's happening between the Devil and God is a real war. So he won't "back off" from us even after our deaths. Rather, he will continue to attack us through: (1) accusations, some true and some false, and, (2) by tempting us with various thoughts - until he is forced to leave us alone, by our guardian angel and God's Grace.

War is not a courtroom-drama, either. Satan is not a prosecutor, much less a judge. He is an enemy, fighting us relentlessly, even after death.

Such is the substance of the toll-house doctrine.

And yes, I voted "Yay".

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
 
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JeremiahsBulldog

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Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

I agree. Christ indeed has all authority. This includes the authority - if He so chooses - to allow His rational creations: angels, demons, and humans, to use their free-will. How they use their free-will is up to them (or it wouldn't be free).
The demons choose to use their free-will to destroy that part of God's creation they have access to. Us.
And they can fight us ceaselessly, since they don't eat, go to the bathroom, sleep, go on vacation, get sick, or die. They will keep fighting us until God takes us out of their reach, to Heaven. This might happen at the moment of our deaths or later.
 
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AV1

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How about this? No one who has written on this has been there to see, and the Church does not have an official position either way (solidified at least). Why is that the case?

My suspicion is that it is irrelevant to the way in which we live our faith. We work each day to grow closer to God, and cast off the sinful nature that Paul so eloquently detailed in his letters to the Church. We control only the work and accountability in this life for the time being, because it is all we have physical access too.

We will be judged later, in a manner detailed only in the Love and Mercy of God...which is a mystery. Do any of us really care or hope to understand how that works? We have the instructions we need for our time on Earth, provided by Christ and the Holy Spirit to the Church.

"It is finished."
 
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inconsequential

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From the little I've read and heard taught on them, the are basically a continuation of our earthly struggle with sin. The demons last attempt to make us stumble. If you are prepared to die, they won't be too bad, if you're not prepared to die, well, it's your lack of preparation that is the issue, not the toll houses.

I guess that's why they don't terrify me more than the thought of facing my Lord with unrepented sin in my heart.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

yes, and the demons still test and tempt us. because they do so, no matter when, by God's allowance and for His glory. read Job, and then just apply that to man's last hours on this earth.
 
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Great point.

yes, and the demons still test and tempt us. because they do so, no matter when, by God's allowance and for His glory. read Job, and then just apply that to man's last hours on this earth.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So not only is this similar to the Egyptian book of the dead but also some Jewish kabbalistic thought. In the Book of the dead, the deceased are required to pass a series of gates, guarded by demons. If all the obstacles of the gates could be negotiated, the deceased would be judged in the "Weighing of the Heart" ritual. If the heart was out of balance because of sins, then another demon, the Devourer, stood ready to eat it and put the dead person's afterlife to an early and unpleasant end. If the scales balanced, this meant the deceased had led a good life. Anubis would take them to Osiris and they would find their place in the afterlife.

In some Kabbalistic thought there is a similar story. The entrance to heaven is blocked by a series of gates. Each gate must be passed through before reaching heaven. Each gate is guarded by angels and demons who keep the unworthy from reaching heaven.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So not only is this similar to the Egyptian book of the dead but also some Jewish kabbalistic thought. In the Book of the dead, the deceased are required to pass a series of gates, guarded by demons. If all the obstacles of the gates could be negotiated, the deceased would be judged in the "Weighing of the Heart" ritual. If the heart was out of balance because of sins, then another demon, the Devourer, stood ready to eat it and put the dead person's afterlife to an early and unpleasant end. If the scales balanced, this meant the deceased had led a good life. Anubis would take them to Osiris and they would find their place in the afterlife.

In some Kabbalistic thought there is a similar story. The entrance to heaven is blocked by a series of gates. Each gate must be passed through before reaching heaven. Each gate is guarded by angels and demons who keep the unworthy from reaching heaven.

so what? critics of the Resurrection point out Resurrection stories in other myths, as well as Floods, Virgin Births, etc. just because other religions had the concept, does not make it wrong. it just means other faiths had a proper understanding to a small degree.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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so what? critics of the Resurrection point out Resurrection stories in other myths, as well as Floods, Virgin Births, etc. just because other religions had the concept, does not make it wrong. it just means other faiths had a proper understanding to a small degree.

I made no judgements in my post, just thought it was interesting that both had very similar concepts as the toll house theory and much much earlier.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I made no judgements in my post, just thought it was interesting that both had very similar concepts as the toll house theory and much much earlier.

and pagan Egypt had concepts of the Resurrection and Virgin Birth long before Christ. it's a weak argument to say that it has been found in earlier pagan culture, considering we all come from Noah.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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and pagan Egypt had concepts of the Resurrection and Virgin Birth long before Christ. it's a weak argument to say that it has been found in earlier pagan culture, considering we all come from Noah.

Why, because YOU say so...THAT is a weak argument LOL
 
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jckstraw72

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Against the claim that the teaching as a whole is Gnostic, Met. Hierotheos Vlachos provides the obvious answer. Acknowledging that similar ideas can be found in Gnostic texts, he notes that the teaching about the immortality of the soul, the ecstasy of man and the dispassion of the soul and body, the triparatite soul and many other things also originated outside the Church but were placed in a proper ecclesiastical atmosphere by the God-bearing Fathers.[57] In fact, Origen in his Contra Celsium 6.22 provides and dismisses the Persian Mithraist ascent of the soul, but elsewhere, referencing John 14:30[58] writes that we shall encounter toll collectors who search us to find something that belongs to them at the end of our lives.[59]

[57] Life After Death, p. 77-78.

[58] “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”

[59] Hom. in Luc., 23 (PG 13:1862).
 
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