Acts 15: Circumcision and the Law

[ContraMundum]

Sins are defined in the TEN .... those commands to wear tzitis, circumcision etc are for the walk.

The Sabbath is in the ten, no? Still applies to my post then.

 

[ErezY]

How strange she divided out the Torah into moral and civil definitions. Isn't that a Christian thing to do? And the Shabbat is always the hitch in that fallacy.

 

[Open Heart]

How strange she divided out the Torah into moral and civil definitions. Isn't that a Christian thing to do? And the Shabbat is always the hitch in that fallacy.

In spite of its claim to be a Judaism, MJ is fraught with Christian traditions and theologies, especially Protestant Evangelicalism (and sometimes even Pentecostalism). Vis is just being a normal MJ in this regard.

 

[Lulav]

In spite of its claim to be a Judaism, MJ is fraught with Christian traditions and theologies, especially Protestant Evangelicalism (and sometimes even Pentecostalism). Vis is just being a normal MJ in this regard.

And that comes from the leadership of MJ. Jews who were taught in Gentile Christian seminaries, of course these things would rub off on them.
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This is the second thread I've read so far to day that seems to be directing unkind and unloving darts at long time members here by those who have only been here a brief amount of time or haven't participated much yet seem to think it OK to push others out.

It is not OK. Some of us have been around a very long time, have contributed much to what this forum is and deserve the respect that entails. I have been here since early of 2002, right at the beginning of the formation of this forum and I can tell you it's never been a 'Mainstream' MJ forum. The fact is that those who 'practice Mainstream MJ' are sadly not those who want to study much, or delve further, or look for other like minds in how to please G-d. Some may come through under certain life circumstances that may lead them here to 'check us out' but they don't stay long, or participate much.

We have gone rounds and rounds of 'Who is a MJ', 'What is an MJ' and other like topics ad nausium. This usually happens when newbies come along and want to change the dynamics of the forum .

We all must remember that this forum is located on Christian Forums, one of the few forums that allow MJ to exist in peace, it is not a forum on MJAA, nor UMJC or any other alphabet MJ organization so it is not going to reflect certain beliefs by any of the MJ orgs, but to say that it is more conservodox in it's membership.

The Gentiles that come here and stay are ones I would say are like Ruth, they want to attach themselves to Israel and are willing to do what that takes.

It is wrong on this forum to try and convince any Gentile that they shouldn't seek to please the L-RD by keeping his commandments. There are plenty of places on the site that allow this, as well as encourage no laws, but this forum is not the place.

OK, I"ve said my piece, now to get some in me so I can make descent sense.............................

 

[Lulav]

A common analogy but a flawed one. Simple question- is something that is a sin allowed to be done just because one is a "beginner"? Obviously not. So, if the Apostles did not teach the Gentiles to be circumcised (a Torah commandment) nor teach them to be shomer shabbos (a Torah commandment) nor teach them to wear tzitzis (a Torah commandment) then aren't the Apostles guilty of allowing and propagating sin? Aren't they compromising on the Torah by not clearly telling their talmidim to keep the whole of the Law?

This would be unthinkable in a Jewish setting.

So the analogy is flawed because it makes the Apostles out to be antinomian according to convenience, and thus makes their Lord and the Holy Spirit who led them guilty of moral and legal cowardice!

So, obviously the fact of the matter is that the Jews (and thus the Church in agreement with them!) then and now are right: Gentiles have never been, nor ever will be bound to the whole of the Torah, in same manner that not every law applies to every person. Laws for women don't apply to men, vice versa, laws for priests don't apply to the people etc etc. Laws specifically for Jews don't apply to Gentiles and vice-versa. It's not rocket science. Live according to all the Laws that apply to you personally- found in both Testaments.

CM, your post makes sense and would to most Gentiles who don't understand that still today when someone wishes to convert they are actually told to NOT keep Shabbat fully, they are told to purposefully desecrate the Sabbath.

 

[Open Heart]

And that comes from the leadership of MJ. Jews who were taught in Gentile Christian seminaries, of course these things would rub off on them.

Thank goodness MJ seminaries are opening!

As to the rest of your post, I have not meant to run anyone out. I don't think ANYONE should be run out. I'm perfectly comfy with having One Law folks in the forum. I do think, however, that the forum should naturally go through alterations, sometimes be more this way, sometimes more that way, depending on who is here.

 

[visionary]

How strange she divided out the Torah into moral and civil definitions. Isn't that a Christian thing to do? And the Shabbat is always the hitch in that fallacy.

Sabbos is in the ten which are definitive of what is sin. As far as moral ... that is where the definition of sin comes from.

 

[ContraMundum]

CM, your post makes sense and would to most Gentiles who don't understand that still today when someone wishes to convert they are actually told to NOT keep Shabbat fully, they are told to purposefully desecrate the Sabbath.

Yep!

 

[ContraMundum]

How strange she divided out the Torah into moral and civil definitions. Isn't that a Christian thing to do? And the Shabbat is always the hitch in that fallacy.

Good point but I've read such divisions in Jewish literature too, and they are quite useful in Judaism. The point is how one is using the divisions. Or course the Reformers used them quite forensically, and perhaps a little too much so. But then again, I think the whole Law vs Grace issue is a result of problematic processes born out of the debate over justification. In time I believe these things will sort themselves out.

 

[ContraMundum]

And that comes from the leadership of MJ. Jews who were taught in Gentile Christian seminaries, of course these things would rub off on them.

I wouldn't call Christian seminaries "Gentile" though. There is no such emphasis, and even if it were so that wouldn't necessarily make them worse than "Jewish" seminaries, if such existed. Every institution has good and bad points and should be taken on their own individual merits. But the point I would make here is that seminarians are not just dull parrots spouting out what they are taught. We are taught to learn for ourselves, first and foremost. Just like any good university would have its students do. The emphasis these days is to make good theologians and more importantly good pastors. Pastoral work is not sitting around trying to figure out what laws to keep. It's day to day hard work on day to day problems and knowing the Sermon on the Mount is way more important than knowing the ritual for the washing of hands (for example).

 

[Lulav]

I wouldn't call Christian seminaries "Gentile" though. There is no such emphasis, and even if it were so that wouldn't necessarily make them worse than "Jewish" seminaries, if such existed. Every institution has good and bad points and should be taken on their own individual merits. But the point I would make here is that seminarians are not just dull parrots spouting out what they are taught. We are taught to learn for ourselves, first and foremost. Just like any good university would have its students do. The emphasis these days is to make good theologians and more importantly good pastors. Pastoral work is not sitting around trying to figure out what laws to keep. It's day to day hard work on day to day problems and knowing the Sermon on the Mount is way more important than knowing the ritual for the washing of hands (for example).

Ok, how about Protestant? better?

 

[Open Heart]

It's day to day hard work on day to day problems and knowing the Sermon on the Mount is way more important than knowing the ritual for the washing of hands (for example).

Good summary.

 

[Gregory Wilson]

So, obviously the fact of the matter is that the Jews (and thus the Church in agreement with them!) then and now are right: Gentiles have never been, nor ever will be bound to the whole of the Torah, in same manner that not every law applies to every person. Laws for women don't apply to men, vice versa, laws for priests don't apply to the people etc etc. Laws specifically for Jews don't apply to Gentiles and vice-versa. It's not rocket science. Live according to all the Laws that apply to you personally- found in both Testaments.

Hello ContraMundum. I have a disagreement about the above, because the whole Law was to the Jews, and so the whole law, unles some parts doesn't apply for some reason, is for the gentiles as well - because Jesus said whoEVER keeps and teaches the least of the laws would be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Thanks,

Greg

 

[Hoshiyya]

It is wrong on this forum to try and convince any Gentile that they shouldn't seek to please the L-RD by keeping his commandments.

Amen to the power of ten.

 

[Hoshiyya]

In spite of its claim to be a Judaism, MJ is fraught with Christian traditions and theologies, especially Protestant Evangelicalism (and sometimes even Pentecostalism).

I agree. The Protestant connection / legacy of MJ is problematic.

But Protestantism and its influence on MJ is a problem because it is merely a diluted, Germanic / North European form of Catholicism, (they lost some of their fascinans with Rome, but couldn't think of a non-Roman way of doing things...) or in other words, it is (gentile) antinomianism.
Protestantism is therefore less of a problem than Catholicism is, relative to its de facto influence, and not coincidentally, more Protestants turn to MJ than Catholics.

MJ will be gradually purified, and become more Heavenly, and less "human". We will have to learn to set our sights on the Millennial Kingdom and the post-Millennial Kingdom, rather than defining ourselves as belonging to this or that political group, this or that synagogue or chuch, this or that denominator.

Also, anyone who messes with Visionary is messing with the Hosh !

 

[Steve Petersen]

A common analogy but a flawed one. Simple question- is something that is a sin allowed to be done just because one is a "beginner"? Obviously not. So, if the Apostles did not teach the Gentiles to be circumcised (a Torah commandment) nor teach them to be shomer shabbos (a Torah commandment) nor teach them to wear tzitzis (a Torah commandment) then aren't the Apostles guilty of allowing and propagating sin? Aren't they compromising on the Torah by not clearly telling their talmidim to keep the whole of the Law?

This would be unthinkable in a Jewish setting.

So the analogy is flawed because it makes the Apostles out to be antinomian according to convenience, and thus makes their Lord and the Holy Spirit who led them guilty of moral and legal cowardice!

So, obviously the fact of the matter is that the Jews (and thus the Church in agreement with them!) then and now are right: Gentiles have never been, nor ever will be bound to the whole of the Torah, in same manner that not every law applies to every person. Laws for women don't apply to men, vice versa, laws for priests don't apply to the people etc etc. Laws specifically for Jews don't apply to Gentiles and vice-versa. It's not rocket science. Live according to all the Laws that apply to you personally- found in both Testaments.

Actually, you will find the sages opined that one should not be overly meticulous with converts, but to give them a few light and a few heavy commandments at first. I think this is entirely in line with Acts 15.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/proselyte.html

 

[visionary]

Amen to the power of ten.

It was what Yeshua pointed to when talking about the law...

 

[Hoshiyya]

It is better to have a millstone tied to your neck and be thrown off a bridge than to actually teach people they shouldn't or don't need to try to keep the law. Even if you commit sin, you must at least acknowledge mentally that there is no other law, and that it is the will of God, now as before, to keep the law, becuase God's judgments are good. They apply to me, you and your neighbor, and better our lives immeasurably.

We are not always perfect. But just having the presence of the law in our lives, and the attempt to live with it and perfect its application, purifies us gradually, and that is what growing and maturing is all about.

 

[pinacled]

Amen to the power of ten.

Amen

 

[Open Heart]

But Protestantism and its influence on MJ is a problem because it is merely a diluted, Germanic / North European form of Catholicism, (they lost some of their fascinans with Rome, but couldn't think of a non-Roman way of doing things...) or in other words, it is (gentile) antinomianism.

Odd that you would say that. I know that Protestantism is faith only, but Catholicism has always stressed obedience. At any rate, the good news is that at least out of both traditions is coming an appreciation for MJ ways.