abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

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We don't agree I can't convince you, you can't convince me, we'd just go on and on.
Here's freedom, but you want slavery.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32 To the Jews who believed him Jesus said if you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
And you have to keep reading.

For Jesus said to the Pharisees,
"Everyone who sins is a slave to sin"
(John 8:34) (NIV).

Jesus also said to the Pharisees,
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
(John 8:44) (KJ2000).


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disciple1

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And you have to keep reading.

For Jesus said to the Pharisees,
"Everyone who sins is a slave to sin"
(John 8:34) (NIV).

Jesus also said to the Pharisees,
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
(John 8:44) (KJ2000).


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Everyone sins and you can't please god without faith.
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
galatians chapter 3 verse 12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
 
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Everyone sins

Well, you are free to believe what you like, but this belief would be a denial of 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Revelation 14:4-5.
I urge you to re-read these verses closely in prayer with God, my friend.
For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. But if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
Please do not take that kind of chance, my friend.

and you can't please god without faith.

Whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23).
You just said that everyone sins. So if sinning is the equivalent of not having faith according to Romans 14:23, and if you are agreeing with Hebrews 11:6 that says, "without faith it is impossible to please him." then you have to admit that you are not pleasing God. For sin is anything that is not of the faith (Romans 14:23).

1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

But this has to be read in context of these verses, though.

1 "Since therefore Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life will suffice us to have done the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in licentiousness, lusts, excess of wine, reveling, carousing, and abominable idolatries:
4 In which they think it strange that you run not with them to the same excess of dissipation, speaking evil of you:"
(1 Peter 4:1-4).​

In other words, verse 1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have CEASED from sin.
Verse 2 says these individuals (from verse 1) no longer live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Verse 3 says that these individuals use to live a sinful life as a part of their old life.
Verse 4 says that others in the world think it strange that these individuals no longer run in the type of sins they do, whereby as a result, they then speak evil of them.

galatians chapter 3 verse 12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

First, you have to understand that Galatians is addressing the heresy of "circumcision" in going back to the Old Law.
Second, Paul is talking about one coming to the faith and not what one's faith should look like.

Anyways, Galatians is in context to the Law of Moses and not all whatsoever. For there is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12), the Royal Law (James 2:8), and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) within the New Testament. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So that does not mean God is against that which is lawful under the New Covenant. God is not unrighteous or lawless.

Anyways, we know Galatians 3 is talking about the Law of Moses in the Old Testament and not all law whatsoever because,

Paul says,

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before by God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of no effect." (Galatians 3:17).​

Paul also says,

24 "Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
(Galatians 3:24-25).​

So we can see clearly here that Paul was talking about the Law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. For Paul never says that we can disobey Jesus and what he says. On the contrary,

Paul essentially says in Scripture,

"If any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).​


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disciple1

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Well, you are free to believe what you like, but this belief would be a denial of 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and Revelation 14:4-5.
I urge you to re-read these verses closely in prayer with God, my friend.
For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. But if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
Please do not take that kind of chance, my friend.



Whatever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23).
You just said that everyone sins. So if sinning is the equivalent of not having faith according to Romans 14:23, and if you are agreeing with Hebrews 11:6 that says, "without faith it is impossible to please him." then you have to admit that you are not pleasing God. For sin is anything that is not of the faith (Romans 14:23).



But this has to be read in context of these verses, though.

1 "Since therefore Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life will suffice us to have done the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in licentiousness, lusts, excess of wine, reveling, carousing, and abominable idolatries:
4 In which they think it strange that you run not with them to the same excess of dissipation, speaking evil of you:"
(1 Peter 4:1-4).​

In other words, verse 1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have CEASED from sin.
Verse 2 says these individuals (from verse 1) no longer live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Verse 3 says that these individuals use to live a sinful life as a part of their old life.
Verse 4 says that others in the world think it strange that these individuals no longer run in the type of sins they do, whereby as a result, they then speak evil of them.



First, you have to understand that Galatians is addressing the heresy of "circumcision" in going back to the Old Law.
Also, Paul is talking about one coming to the faith and not what one's faith should look like.

Anyways, Galatians is in context to the Law of Moses and not all whatsoever. For there is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12), the Royal Law (James 2:8), and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) within the New Testament. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So that does not mean God is against that which is lawful under the New Covenant. God is not unrighteous or lawless.

Anyways, we know Galatians 3 is talking about the Law of Moses in the Old Testament and not all law whatsoever because,

Paul says,

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before by God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of no effect." (Galatians 3:17).​

Paul also says,

24 "Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
(Galatians 3:24-25).​

So we can see clearly here that Paul was talking about the Law of Moses and not all law whatsoever. For Paul never says that we can disobey Jesus and what he says. On the contrary,

Paul essentially says in Scripture,

"If any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).​


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Hebrews 11:6New International Version (NIV)

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to himA)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-30179A"> must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
galatians chapter 5 verse 6
the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
 
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Hebrews 11:6New International Version (NIV)

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to himA)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-30179A"> must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
galatians chapter 5 verse 6
the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

Yes, this is true. But you also said we will always sin, too. Scripture says that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. You then quoted Hebrews that says without faith it is impossible to please Him. So that means if you believe a believer will always sin, then you have a contradiction because this type of believer is not pleasing God because of their sin. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin; Or sin is not anything that is of the faith.


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disciple1

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Yes, this is true. But you also said we will always sin, too. Scripture says that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. You then quoted Hebrews that says without faith it is impossible to please Him. So that means if you believe a believer will always sin, then you have a contradiction because this type of believer is not pleasing God because of their sin. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin; Or sin is not anything that is of the faith.


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I think you can't notice your sin, because you notice everyone else's, and won't admit your own.
 
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I think you can't notice your sin, because you notice everyone else's, and won't admit your own.

There are days I do not sin. But if I do sin I confess that sin so as to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) and I forsake that sin and walk in His righteous ways so that the blood of Jesus Christ continues to cleanse me from all sin (1 John 1:7) (Also see Proverbs 28:13).
I also have faith that one day (Which could be today or tomorrow) that God will help me to overcome my sin for good, too. For with God, nothing is impossible. In fact, God's will for our life is that we are to be holy (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

For there is a difference between:

(a) An alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in striving to put his alcoholism behind him so as to be sober one day (versus):

(b) An alcoholic who believes that they will always drink the rest of their life and yet somehow they will also be sober, too.


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disciple1

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There are days I do not sin. But if I do sin I confess that sin so as to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) and I forsake that sin and walk in His righteous ways so that the blood of Jesus Christ continues to cleanse me from all sin (1 John 1:7) (Also see Proverbs 28:13).
I also have faith that one day (Which could be today or tomorrow) that God will help me to overcome my sin for good, too. For with God, nothing is impossible. In fact, God's will for our life is that we are to be holy (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

For there is a difference between:

(a) An alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in striving to put his alcoholism behind him so as to be sober one day (versus):

(b) An alcoholic who believes that they will always drink the rest of their life and yet somehow they will also be sober, too.


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Galatians chapter 5 verse 4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
 
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Galatians chapter 5 verse 4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

It's talking about the Law of Moses and not all Law whatsoever.



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disciple1

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Galatians chapter 5 verse 4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Romans chapter 4 verse 8
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them."
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
 
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Romans chapter 4 verse 8
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them."
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

This is talking about past sin that a believer confesses and forsakes. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Nowhere does the Bible say you can continue in your sin and be right with God. If such were the case, then God would be unrighteous because He would have to agree with that type of wrong thinking.


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disciple1

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This is talking about past sin that a believer confesses and forsakes. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Nowhere does the Bible say you can continue in your sin and be right with God. If such were the case, then God would be unrighteous because He would have to agree with that type of wrong thinking.


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I once thought like you, but I've studied the bible 34 years about two hours a day, since I've studied it sometimes none and sometimes 12 hours in a day, today I would have studied 4 hours, but a sick wife kept me from it, I also would have gone downtown and played hymns on the harmonica an hour.
Jesus said anyone who does not gather with me scatters, that's what hypocrites who preach the law do they drive people away from Christ.
You admitted to sin earlier, so as James says in chapter 2 verse 10
you guilty of every sin including being gay even if you haven't done it, we all are.
you say everything is about the law of Moses.
Nowhere in these verses does it say OK you obeyed the law some of the time, or you tried to, no but it tells about acts done in love, and if you preach the law as you do and don't obey it as you don't your a hypocrite.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
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disciple1

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I once thought like you, but I've studied the bible 34 years about two hours a day, since I've studied it sometimes none and sometimes 12 hours in a day, today I would have studied 4 hours, but a sick wife kept me from it, I also would have gone downtown and played hymns on the harmonica an hour.
Jesus said anyone who does not gather with me scatters, that's what hypocrites who preach the law do they drive people away from Christ.
You admitted to sin earlier, so as James says in chapter 2 verse 10
you guilty of every sin including being gay even if you haven't done it, we all are.
you say everything is about the law of Moses.
Nowhere in these verses does it say OK you obeyed the law some of the time, or you tried to, no but it tells about acts done in love, and if you preach the law as you do and don't obey it as you don't your a hypocrite.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Remember Moses left with 2 million people but only 2 of them entered the promised land.
 
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I once thought like you, but I've studied the bible 34 years about two hours a day, since I've studied it sometimes none and sometimes 12 hours in a day, today I would have studied 4 hours, but a sick wife kept me from it, I also would have gone downtown and played hymns on the harmonica an hour.

Why don't I believe you?

First, you have not addressed all of the verses I brought forth that refutes Eternal Security. You also have not addresed the verses that support Sinless Perfectionism, either. Second, this is not my first dicussion in regards to Eternal Security, either. Not only do Eternal Security proponents ignore many verses (like with your unwillingess to discuss the ones I brought forth), but they also have treated me in a cruel way over the years, too. Are God's people really supposed to act like that? Furthermore, the doctrine itself when you follow it's logical conclusion leads a person into the thinking that they can sin and still be saved. What happens if this type of message is heard by a child? What if your gospel of telling others that they can sin and still be saved leads a child (who hears this message) into sin? Do you know what Jesus said what happens to a person if they lead a child into sin?

Also, people (including a child) have committed suicide thinking they were saved because of Eternal Security. Others have even murdered thinking they were saved because of Eternal Security (if you need links I can provide them for you). So there is nothing good about Eternal Security that I have discovered over the years. The more I study God's Word, the more verses I discover verses that refutes it. The more I investigate Eternal Security and how it effects people's lives, the more I see how destructive it is to their lives. Most of the time, I get the same ole arguments. It is an attack upon me and my personal life (Like what you are trying to do). But the Bible is true regardless of anything that I do. Noah could not look around him and see if other men were being righteous or not. In fact, do you know why God destroyed the world with a global flood? Because they were an example to all who should live ungodly there after.

Second, it does not matter if you were to study the Bible for hundreds of years, my friend. If you do not want to see a particular truth within it's pages, then you are never going to see it. For the Bible is a spiritual book and it is taught to us by the Spirit and not by endless hours of us personally reading it (as if it was dime store novel). God awakens our understanding to what the words on the page are actually saying. If we try to understand God's Word with a natural man perspective, or by the belief of what some religious leaders are saying about it, we will never get what it is actually saying (Unless we are honestly seeking after the truth - no matter how uncomfortable that truth may be to us).

Third, do you believe God is lawless? Do you believe God's people are lawless? I want you to stop for a moment. Go and get a note pad and pencil and crack open the New Testament. Now, start writing down anything you see that looks like a Commandment from God. I am not talking about the Old Testament. I am talking about the Commands given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. What are the Commandments of Jesus Christ? What are the Commands given to us by His apostles? For how can God be against the very Commands that He gives in the New Testament? In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Can a man be proud and know nothing and be saved?

Jesus said anyone who does not gather with me scatters, that's what hypocrites who preach the law do they drive people away from Christ.

Four, when you read Luke 11:23, you also have to read Luke 11:28 that says,

"But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

Yet, by what you have said so far, you are giving me the impression that hearing God's Word and keeping it is wrong because you said that teaching Law is wrong. Is that what you are saying?

You admitted to sin earlier,

I do not make a habit of sinning on a daily basis.
There are days I do not sin. Can you say the same?

Also, as I said before, there is a huge difference between:

(a) The alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober and free from alcohol (versus say);
(b) The alcoholic who enters a drug program with no real intention of them in ever giving up their drink.

The first is an example of what a true believer is like.
The second is the example of an Eternal Security Proponent.

so as James says in chapter 2 verse 10
you guilty of every sin including being gay even if you haven't done it, we all are.
you say everything is about the law of Moses.
Nowhere in these verses does it say OK you obeyed the law some of the time, or you tried to, no but it tells about acts done in love, and if you preach the law as you do and don't obey it as you don't your a hypocrite.

Well, James 2:10 is not saying that you cannot keep the Law or that is impossible to do so (if that is what you are suggesting). James also does not say that you have a license to sin whereby if you break one law you end up breaking them all (As proof that you cannot keep the Law), either (if that is what you believe). On the contrary, James is talking about showing partiality that isnt loving to our neighbor. He is says if you are trying to fulfill the law and yet break one part of the law you are going to be judged by the whole law. - he then says ( in verse: ) 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. ( in verse: ) 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Where in the law of Moses is this? It isn't.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

I am not sure how you think Matthew 25:31-46 helps to prove Eternal Security in any way. On the contrary it is by the person's actions that determine their fate in the after-life with God here. So I really do not see how you think this supports Once Saved Always Saved. Can you maybe offer me a little commentary as to why you think it does support it?



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Remember Moses left with 2 million people but only 2 of them entered the promised land.

I don't see how this helps Eternal Security, my friend.
it was a Condition that the Israelites failed to keep by which the Israelites were not able to enter the Promised Land.
Also, the generation of children of the parents (i.e. the parents who were not able to enter) were also with Caleb and Joshua, too. So it was not just the two of them.

But if your point is narrow is the way that leads unto life, that does not exactly help Once Saved Always Saved, either. Most churches in America today are in support of Eternal Security (Which is contrary to the Bible) and they do not believe the Scriptures that talk about how a believer can stop sinning, too.

....
 
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ToBeLoved

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Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?
What every Christian wants to do is please God out of love. Because they want to be a testimony, a living, breathing testimony of God's love and how it changes someone.

In essence, they are different of course, good actions vs. staying out of sin. But both bring Glory to God. It may not be glory that other people can see, but God knows. That is very important.

The Word tells us that God loves the things that we do for Him that others do not see. Why does He love these things especially? Because there is nothing in it for us. No one to say 'Nice Job', 'Your Great'. You are doing it in secret only for God's glory. God cherishes this.
 
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disciple1

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Why don't I believe you?

First, you have not addressed all of the verses I brought forth that refutes Eternal Security. You also have not addresed the verses that support Sinless Perfectionism, either. Second, this is not my first dicussion in regards to Eternal Security, either. Not only do Eternal Security proponents ignore many verses (like with your unwillingess to discuss the ones I brought forth), but they also have treated me in a cruel way over the years, too. Are God's people really supposed to act like that? Furthermore, the doctrine itself when you follow it's logical conclusion leads a person into the thinking that they can sin and still be saved. What happens if this type of message is heard by a child? What if your gospel of telling others that they can sin and still be saved leads a child (who hears this message) into sin? Do you know what Jesus said what happens to a person if they lead a child into sin?

Also, people (including a child) have committed suicide thinking they were saved because of Eternal Security. Others have even murdered thinking they were saved because of Eternal Security (if you need links I can provide them for you). So there is nothing good about Eternal Security that I have discovered over the years. The more I study God's Word, the more verses I discover verses that refutes it. The more I investigate Eternal Security and how it effects people's lives, the more I see how destructive it is to their lives. Most of the time, I get the same ole arguments. It is an attack upon me and my personal life (Like what you are trying to do). But the Bible is true regardless of anything that I do. Noah could not look around him and see if other men were being righteous or not. In fact, do you know why God destroyed the world with a global flood? Because they were an example to all who should live ungodly there after.

Second, it does not matter if you were to study the Bible for hundreds of years, my friend. If you do not want to see a particular truth within it's pages, then you are never going to see it. For the Bible is a spiritual book and it is taught to us by the Spirit and not by endless hours of us personally reading it (as if it was dime store novel). God awakens our understanding to what the words on the page are actually saying. If we try to understand God's Word with a natural man perspective, or by the belief of what some religious leaders are saying about it, we will never get what it is actually saying (Unless we are honestly seeking after the truth - no matter how uncomfortable that truth may be to us).

Third, do you believe God is lawless? Do you believe God's people are lawless? I want you to stop for a moment. Go and get a note pad and pencil and crack open the New Testament. Now, start writing down anything you see that looks like a Commandment from God. I am not talking about the Old Testament. I am talking about the Commands given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. What are the Commandments of Jesus Christ? What are the Commands given to us by His apostles? For how can God be against the very Commands that He gives in the New Testament? In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Can a man be proud and know nothing and be saved?



Four, when you read Luke 11:23, you also have to read Luke 11:28 that says,

"But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

Yet, by what you have said so far, you are giving me the impression that hearing God's Word and keeping it is wrong because you said that teaching Law is wrong. Is that what you are saying?



I do not make a habit of sinning on a daily basis.
There are days I do not sin. Can you say the same?

Also, as I said before, there is a huge difference between:

(a) The alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober and free from alcohol (versus say);
(b) The alcoholic who enters a drug program with no real intention of them in ever giving up their drink.

The first is an example of what a true believer is like.
The second is the example of an Eternal Security Proponent.



Well, James 2:10 is not saying that you cannot keep the Law or that is impossible to do so (if that is what you are suggesting). James also does not say that you have a license to sin whereby if you break one law you end up breaking them all (As proof that you cannot keep the Law), either (if that is what you believe). On the contrary, James is talking about showing partiality that isnt loving to our neighbor. He is says if you are trying to fulfill the law and yet break one part of the law you are going to be judged by the whole law. - he then says ( in verse: ) 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. ( in verse: ) 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Where in the law of Moses is this? It isn't.



I am not sure how you think Matthew 25:31-46 helps to prove Eternal Security in any way. On the contrary it is by the person's actions that determine their fate in the after-life with God here. So I really do not see how you think this supports Once Saved Always Saved. Can you maybe offer me a little commentary as to why you think it does support it?



....
I can't convince you, you can't convince me, I guess that's it.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I can't convince you, you can't convince me, I guess that's it.

But you didn't even try to put up any kind of debate with Scripture by explaining how you think the passages that refute Eternal Security does not really mean what they say, though. In other words, I would like for you to explain the verses that I believe are against Eternal Security (that we have been discussing) by showing me:

(a) The context (i.e. surrounding text to the verse(s)).
(b) Cross References (i.e. Other related verses in other parts of Scripture).

...
 
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Thursday

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Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?


I think there is a difference between works of the Law and the good works commanded by Jesus.

I don't think there is a difference between sins of omission and sins of commission, though.
 
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Thursday

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For the most part yes.

The Bible tells us 1 John 5:13 that can encompass the whole Bible "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life"

So the Bible can tell us how we can be certain that by studying the Word we can be sure of our salvation and secure in the promises that God provides.

John is referring to that single letter, not the whole bible.

Which things did he write, though?

How about this:

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

That's a little scary for protestants, don't you think?
 
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