abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

EmSw

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You have either believed in and rested in the provisions of the gospel or you have not. If you have - you are justified by your "genuine" faith. If you have not - you are still in your sins and are not justified before God.

You keep dodging my question. Here you say believing and resting in the provisions of the gospel indicates genuine faith.

Works follow faith and are the evidence thereof.

You have saving faith before any works are likely to be seen.

Now you say works follow genuine faith. I keep asking if works are necessary to prove genuine, or saving faith; you will not say yes or no.

Let's look at this another way. Jesus said in John 14:21 - He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.

Genuine love for Jesus is keeping His commandments; do you agree? Now if a person does not keep His commandments, does he have a genuine love for Jesus? If you say no, then you have to agree keeping His commandments is necessary to love Him, though it may follow love.

If works follow and prove genuine, saving faith, then works are necessary for salvation. If works are neglected and missing, then genuine, saving faith is not present. How can a person have genuine, saving faith without works?

Although judging the works of a new baby in Christ would be a pretty tricky proposition - works of some kind will follow faith.

This is all basic Christianity 101 stuff is it not?

I like the way you say, 'works of some kind will follow faith', and yet deny works are necessary for salvation. If works do not follow faith, does he have genuine, saving faith?
 
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Marvin Knox

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You have either believed in and rested in the provisions of the gospel or you have not. If you have - you are justified by your "genuine" faith. If you have not - you are still in your sins and are not justified before God.

Works follow faith and are the evidence thereof.

You have saving faith before any works are likely to be seen.

Although judging the works of a new baby in Christ would be a pretty tricky proposition - works of some kind will follow faith.

You keep dodging my question. Here you say believing and resting in the provisions of the gospel indicates genuine faith.

Now you say works follow genuine faith. I keep asking if works are necessary to prove genuine, or saving faith; you will not say yes or no.
I have answered your question completely as anyone can see from my quote above.

I did not say that "believing and resting in the provisions of the gospel indicates genuine faith".

Works "indicate genuine faith.

Yes is your answer. I have answered your question before as anyone who can read will see from my quote at the beginning of this post.
Let's look at this another way. Jesus said in John 14:21 - He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.

Genuine love for Jesus is keeping His commandments; do you agree? Now if a person does not keep His commandments, does he have a genuine love for Jesus? If you say no, then you have to agree keeping His commandments is necessary to love Him, though it may follow love.

If works follow and prove genuine, saving faith, then works are necessary for salvation. If works are neglected and missing, then genuine, saving faith is not present. How can a person have genuine, saving faith without works?
I agree that genuine love for Jesus is keeping His commandments.

If a person does not keep His commandments he does not have genuine love for Jesus.

Keeping His commandments is necessary to love Him.

If works are neglected and missing, then genuine, saving faith is not present.

A person cannot have genuine, saving faith without works.

Whether the world or the church can see those works clearly is another matter.

If works do not follow faith, does he have genuine, saving faith?
No.

Surely I have answered all of your questions here in a forthright manner.

You just don't like the way I answer so you accuse me of dodging your questions. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
 
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hedrick

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A few years ago I read a statement by some NT scholar or other (I don’t recall which) saying roughly the following: It’s pretty well agreed by exegetes that Paul’s scheme is justification by faith and judgement by works. When I first read this it seemed weird. If we’re judged by works, why wouldn’t that be what justifies us, and the converse. But over time I’ve come to think that this is right.

Yes, Christians will show it in their actions. And Jesus’ parables of judgement all show people judged by their actions. But in the sheep and the goats, the sheep are surprised. They don’t realize that they’ve been doing “good works.” Is this an anomaly, or is it normal? I think maybe it’s normal.

Jesus tells us not to judge, and Paul understands this as applying even to himself. I commented in my initial answer to the OP that the moment you start focusing on yourself, to judge whether you’re saved, you’re like the kid trying to learn to ride a bike and watching his feet. You get into the whole set of questions that always follow: how many good works do I need? Does it count if I have mixed motives? People who look to works usually end up being legalistic.

So I think it’s best to say that we look to Christ for salvation, but once you’re Christ’s follower, to make it clear that this is expected to show in your life. I hate the term “works,” because it tends to imply “good deeds,” and even legalism. Often love is shown not so much in doing good deeds as in the way in which we do things. And of course for Paul, “works” always seems to have a negative connotation, because it always means “works of the Law.” But still, saying that faith is expected to show in your life is talking about what you probably mean when you say works.

In a purely logical sense, then, this is saying that works (or at least showing love to others) are necessary for salvation. At least if we’re not talking about deathbed conversions or new Christians — who haven’t had time for much visible effect in their lives. But practically, I think it’s safer and better to say that salvation means being a follower of Jesus, and that shows in love. I.e. we are justified by faith and judged by works.
 
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EmSw

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I have answered your question completely as anyone can see from my quote above.

I did not say that "believing and resting in the provisions of the gospel indicates genuine faith".

Works "indicate genuine faith.

Yes is your answer. I have answered your question before as anyone who can read will see from my quote at the beginning of this post.

I agree that genuine love for Jesus is keeping His commandments.

If a person does not keep His commandments he does not have genuine love for Jesus.

Keeping His commandments is necessary to love Him.

If works are neglected and missing, then genuine, saving faith is not present.

A person cannot have genuine, saving faith without works.

Whether the world of the church can see those works clearly is another matter.


No.

Surely I have answered all of your questions here in a forthright manner.

You just don't like the way I answer so you accuse me of dodging your questions. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Thank you Marvin. You have answered plainly. No further questions your Honor. : )
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The whole point of justification by faith is that it’s not about us. Any attempt to judge whether your faith is sufficiently genuine is likely to lead to trouble, because it causes you to start paying attention to your own thoughts, to doubt them, and to try and manufacture certainty. This is a trap. It’s like a young kid trying to ride a bike and looking at what his feet are doing.

Our confidence should come from how much God loves us. If you’re having trouble, look at him.

Of course we should also examine our lives to make sure we’re living up to our faith. Jesus talks a lot about how God holds us responsible for what we do. But that’s for living as Jesus’ followers. It’s not a test to figure out whether he’s accepted us.

It feels odd being in agreement with you, Hedrick, and I'm sure it won't happen again ;), but your post is spot on.

The proof of my salvation is in the promise of the gospel of Christ. This IS the battle of faith that we fight! This is precisely what the Christian life is all about. Do we believe God's promise or the reflection in the mirror? That's the struggle.

As one who has been saved from introspection that nearly drove me insane (much like the story of Luther) I can testify that introspection only produced more sin whereas looking to Christ in faith produced works of righteousness, which I happily take no credit for. This is the gospel. This is living the Christian life. "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)
 
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disciple1

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Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?
James chapter 2 verse 13 Judgement without mercy will be shown anyone who hasn't been merciful mercy triumphs over judgement.
Love also covers many sins.
 
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Do you think there is a difference between what the Bible calls good works and the abstinence from sin?

It seems to me that good works are things like adopting a child, giving money to the poor, helping your neighbor (good Samaritan), doing your best at your job. In general, doing good things.

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

What do you think? Is there a difference or are they one and the same as far as what the Bible calls good works?

Both sins like:

(a) "Murdering", "Committing adultery", and "Stealing" versus say:
(b) Not doing "Doing good works":​

are all Commandments from God (In His Word) that a person would be breaking.

Breaking any Commandment from God is a sin.
For Scripture says, "sin is transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
Laws are Commandments.

Paul even says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Anyways, there are many "good works" listed in God's Word that are commanded for us to do like preaching the gospel and helping the poor (Both of which are serious sins that can put at risk a person's salvation if they refuse to do them in this life as believers in Jesus Christ - See Luke 9:26, Romans 10:10-18, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:17-20.).

However, just so that there is no confusion, Christians are to obey the Laws or Commandments under the New Testament and not the Old Testament, though. For even the moral laws in the Old Testament were attached with death penalties (Which is not the case under the New Testament). For Christ fulfilled the Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament when He died upon the cross.
The "Prophets" or "prophecies" portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament has yet to be fulfilled and is still yet future.
But the Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

In any event, the Commandments or Laws of God can be broken up into different categories
(Based upon the type of punishment that is to take place in disobeying them):

The Bible mentions three different types of sins
(or the breaking of God's Commandments).

1. Unforgivable sins.
(These types of sins would be: suicide or self murder (where a person does not come back from the dead) (1 Corinthians 3:17) (1 John 3:15), speaking bad things against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), and rejecting Jesus Christ as one's Savior after abiding with the Holy Ghost and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6).

2. Sins that do not lead unto death
(1 John 5:16-18).
(These types of sins would be refusing to be baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21, or any hidden or secret fault - Psalm 19:12).

3. Sins that do lead unto death (which is also known as the Second Death or the Lake of Fire)
(1 John 5:16-18) (Revelation 21:8).
(These types of sins would be: murder, idolatry, stealing, fornication, drunkeness, and lying, etc.). (These types of sins if not confessed and forsaken can lead to one's destruction in the Lake of Fire - For Jesus said if one looks upon a woman in lust, he warns them that their entire body can be cast into hell-fire. - See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 as the solution to rectifying these types of sins).​

Unofficially, God's Commandments can also be broken up into two additional categories, as well
(Which I believe answers your question).

For there are:

1. Passive type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: not murdering, not stealing, not committing fornication, and not getting drunk, etc.).
(For they do not require any action on your part to partake in them) (One can simply be passive and obey these commandments).

2. Pro-Active type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: Love the Lord your God, love your neighbor, preach the gospel, and help the poor and unfortunate).
(For they do require some type of action on your part - Which could also be labeled as good works).​

Please take note that we are not saved by any effort on our part alone.
For we are saved by God's mercy and by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:15).
This means we can be saved by confessing sin
(Which is by God's mercy).
This means we can be saved by forsaking sin
(Which is a part of our new nature given to us by the Spirit).
Also, a Christian is ultimately saved by abiding in Christ (God) who is the source of a person's salvation, too (See 1 John 5:12).
Works are merely the proof that Christ (God) lives in you.
For without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
In other words, a believer is to have the fruits or works of God in their life because He lives within them.
This is not man directed works on your part to be saved or Works Salvationism. This is Relationship-ism; And anyone who truly has a relationship with the Lord will have His fruit or work done thru their hearts and lives.
For it's why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus.
Man submits to God and His Word and the Lord then can do His good work in him.


....
 
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Here is a list of 1,050 Commands found in the New Testament.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands
(Please take note that I may not endorse everything this website or church teaches; I merely agree with the list of Commands they provided).

_____________________________________________________________________________

The only commands that I did not see on their list is the following:

  • Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
  • Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).
  • Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35, 36).
  • "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)
  • Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
  • Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)
  • Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)
  • How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.
  • Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I am sure there are more.

As for the Old Testament Law of Moses:

Again, I believe Jesus Christ has nailed the Old Law to the cross and implemented the New Covenant Law of Christ or rules under the New Testament; For Jesus said sometime before cross that the Old was about to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13).

Oh, and just so that there is no confusion. We are not saved by any man directed Law keeping in and of itself, but we are saved by Jesus Christ when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Keeping the New Testament Law of Christ is merely the proof that God lives within you. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. For salvation is not a super power but it is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). Holiness and fruitful works is just evidence that you have been saved.

Hope this helps.

And may God bless you all.


...
 
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disciple1

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Both sins like:

(a) "Murdering", "Committing adultery", and "Stealing" versus say:
(b) Not doing "Doing good works":​

are all Commandments from God (In His Word) that a person would be breaking.

Breaking any Commandment from God is a sin.
For Scripture says, "sin is transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
Laws are Commandments.

Paul even says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Anyways, there are many "good works" listed in God's Word that are commanded for us to do like preaching the gospel and helping the poor (Both of which are serious sins that can put at risk a person's salvation if they refuse to do them in this life as believers in Jesus Christ - See Luke 9:26, Romans 10:10-18, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:17-20.).

However, just so that there is no confusion, Christians are to obey the Laws or Commandments under the New Testament and not the Old Testament, though. For even the moral laws in the Old Testament were attached with death penalties (Which is not the case under the New Testament). For Christ fulfilled the Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament when He died upon the cross.
The "Prophets" or "prophecies" portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament has yet to be fulfilled and is still yet future.
But the Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

In any event, the Commandments or Laws of God can be broken up into different categories
(Based upon the type of punishment that is to take place in disobeying them):

The Bible mentions three different types of sins
(or the breaking of God's Commandments).

1. Unforgivable sins.
(These types of sins would be: suicide or self murder (where a person does not come back from the dead) (1 Corinthians 3:17) (1 John 3:15), speaking bad things against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), and rejecting Jesus Christ as one's Savior after abiding with the Holy Ghost and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6).

2. Sins that do not lead unto death
(1 John 5:16-18).
(These types of sins would be refusing to be baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21, or any hidden or secret fault - Psalm 19:12).

3. Sins that do lead unto death (which is also known as the Second Death or the Lake of Fire)
(1 John 5:16-18) (Revelation 21:8).
(These types of sins would be: murder, idolatry, stealing, fornication, drunkeness, and lying, etc.). (These types of sins if not confessed and forsaken can lead to one's destruction in the Lake of Fire - For Jesus said if one looks upon a woman in lust, he warns them that their entire body can be cast into hell-fire. - See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 as the solution to rectifying these types of sins).​

Unofficially, God's Commandments can also be broken up into two additional categories, as well
(Which I believe answers your question).

For there are:

1. Passive type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: not murdering, not stealing, not committing fornication, and not getting drunk, etc.).
(For they do not require any action on your part to partake in them) (One can simply be passive and obey these commandments).

2. Pro-Active type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: Love the Lord your God, love your neighbor, preach the gospel, and help the poor and unfortunate).
(For they do require some type of action on your part - Which could also be labeled as good works).​

Please take note that we are not saved by any effort on our part alone.
For we are saved by God's mercy and by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:15).
This means we can be saved by confessing sin
(Which is by God's mercy).
This means we can be saved by forsaking sin
(Which is a part of our new nature given to us by the Spirit).
Also, a Christian is ultimately saved by abiding in Christ (God) who is the source of a person's salvation, too (See 1 John 5:12).
Works are merely the proof that Christ (God) lives in you.
For without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
In other words, a believer is to have the fruits or works of God in their life because He lives within them.
This is not man directed works on your part to be saved or Works Salvationism. This is Relationship-ism; And anyone who truly has a relationship with the Lord will have His fruit or work done thru their hearts and lives.
For it's why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus.
Man submits to God and His Word and the Lord then can do His good work in you.


....
Both sins like:

(a) "Murdering", "Committing adultery", and "Stealing" versus say:
(b) Not doing "Doing good works":​

are all Commandments from God (In His Word) that a person would be breaking.

Breaking any Commandment from God is a sin.
For Scripture says, "sin is transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
Laws are Commandments.

Paul even says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Anyways, there are many "good works" listed in God's Word that are commanded for us to do like preaching the gospel and helping the poor (Both of which are serious sins that can put at risk a person's salvation if they refuse to do them in this life as believers in Jesus Christ - See Luke 9:26, Romans 10:10-18, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:17-20.).

However, just so that there is no confusion, Christians are to obey the Laws or Commandments under the New Testament and not the Old Testament, though. For even the moral laws in the Old Testament were attached with death penalties (Which is not the case under the New Testament). For Christ fulfilled the Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament when He died upon the cross.
The "Prophets" or "prophecies" portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament has yet to be fulfilled and is still yet future.
But the Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

In any event, the Commandments or Laws of God can be broken up into different categories
(Based upon the type of punishment that is to take place in disobeying them):

The Bible mentions three different types of sins
(or the breaking of God's Commandments).

1. Unforgivable sins.
(These types of sins would be: suicide or self murder (where a person does not come back from the dead) (1 Corinthians 3:17) (1 John 3:15), speaking bad things against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), and rejecting Jesus Christ as one's Savior after abiding with the Holy Ghost and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6).

2. Sins that do not lead unto death
(1 John 5:16-18).
(These types of sins would be refusing to be baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21, or any hidden or secret fault - Psalm 19:12).

3. Sins that do lead unto death (which is also known as the Second Death or the Lake of Fire)
(1 John 5:16-18) (Revelation 21:8).
(These types of sins would be: murder, idolatry, stealing, fornication, drunkeness, and lying, etc.). (These types of sins if not confessed and forsaken can lead to one's destruction in the Lake of Fire - For Jesus said if one looks upon a woman in lust, he warns them that their entire body can be cast into hell-fire. - See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 as the solution to rectifying these types of sins).​

Unofficially, God's Commandments can also be broken up into two additional categories, as well
(Which I believe answers your question).

For there are:

1. Passive type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: not murdering, not stealing, not committing fornication, and not getting drunk, etc.).
(For they do not require any action on your part to partake in them) (One can simply be passive and obey these commandments).

2. Pro-Active type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: Love the Lord your God, love your neighbor, preach the gospel, and help the poor and unfortunate).
(For they do require some type of action on your part - Which could also be labeled as good works).​

Please take note that we are not saved by any effort on our part alone.
For we are saved by God's mercy and by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:15).
This means we can be saved by confessing sin
(Which is by God's mercy).
This means we can be saved by forsaking sin
(Which is a part of our new nature given to us by the Spirit).
Also, a Christian is ultimately saved by abiding in Christ (God) who is the source of a person's salvation, too (See 1 John 5:12).
Works are merely the proof that Christ (God) lives in you.
For without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
In other words, a believer is to have the fruits or works of God in their life because He lives within them.
This is not man directed works on your part to be saved or Works Salvationism. This is Relationship-ism; And anyone who truly has a relationship with the Lord will have His fruit or work done thru their hearts and lives.
For it's why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus.
Man submits to God and His Word and the Lord then can do His good work in you.


....
As these verses show it means commands in the old or new testament, 1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
love covers many sins.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
 
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As these verses show it means commands in the old or new testament, 1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
love covers many sins.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Belief is proven true if it is followed up by action. For example: I can say that I trust you to catch me if I fall backwards, but my action to actually do so would prove my trust on whether or not you were to actually catch me. For Hebrews 11 defines faith as both a belief and as an action; And James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Anyways, do a keyword search at BlueLetterBible.org for the word "circumcise" and the word "circumcised." You will find that this word appears in both the book of Romans and the book of Galatians. When you read the context or the surrounding words for the appearance for these words in these books, it is clear that Paul was trying to attack the heresy of going back to the Old Law or the Law of Moses by being circumcised. For circumcision was a part of the Old Law and it was not a part of the Commands given to us in the New Testament. In other words, when you read the word "Law" in the book of Romans and Galatians, it is referring to the Law of Moses and not all Law whatsoever. For God is not against us obeying the Commands in the New Testament.

Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15). Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say? (Luke 6:46). Jesus says, "Every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).

Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So God still has Laws for us to obey and there are consequences in not obeying them. For example: 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust he is in danger of having his whole body cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Also, God's Word does not distinguish between sins like murder, hate, fornication, etc.as being any different for believers as it would be for unbelievers. Sin always has the same result. A loss and break in fellowship with God that brings spiritual death (Like it did with Adam).


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disciple1

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Belief is proven true if it is followed up by action. For example: I can say that I trust you to catch me if I fall backwards, but my action to actually do so would prove my trust on whether or not you were to actually catch me. For Hebrews 11 defines faith as both a belief and as an action; And James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Anyways, do a keyword search at BlueLetterBible.org for the word "circumcise" and the word "circumcised." You will find that this word appears in both the book of Romans and the book of Galatians. When you read the context or the surrounding words for the appearance for these words in these books, it is clear that Paul was trying to attack the heresy of going back to the Old Law or the Law of Moses by being circumcised. For circumcision was a part of the Old Law and it was not a part of the Commands given to us in the New Testament. In other words, when you read the word "Law" in the book of Romans and Galatians, it is referring to the Law of Moses and not all Law whatsoever. For God is not against us obeying the Commands in the New Testament.

Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15). Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say? (Luke 6:46). Jesus says, "Every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).

Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16).

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So God still has Laws for us to obey and there are consequences in not obeying them. For example: 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust he is in danger of having his whole body cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Also, God's Word does not distinguish between sins like murder, hate, fornication, etc.as being any different for believers as it would be for unbelievers. Sin always has the same result. A loss and break in fellowship with God that brings spiritual death (Like it did with Adam).


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Nowhere here does it say you obeyed the commands in the new testament.
No but it shows love will cover many sins.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
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Nowhere here does it say you obeyed the commands in the new testament.
No but it shows love will cover many sins.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Well, the Bible is not the type of book that hits you over the head by using words that we prefer. The Bible says in many other ways that we are to obey the New Testament Commands and not the Old Testament Commands. This is obvious when one pieces together all the evidence available to us in Scripture. Yes, some Commands like loving God and loving your neighbor have carried on over from the Old Covenant into the New. But you have to realize that there are many Laws or Commands that are different in the Old versus the New.

A good website that helped me to understand the difference between what Covenant I should obey were the many articles on such a topic (that includes lots of Scripture) at Grace Community International. I would recommend in beginning with this article here:

https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses

As for Matthew 25: Well, to love one's neighbor (like in helping the poor) is a Command that has been carried over into the New Testament (obviously). In the Old Testament, neglecting the poor was an insult one's maker (Proverbs 14:31) (Proverbs 17:5) and the ignoring of the cry of the poor would mean God would ignore their cry as a result (Proverbs 21:13). But helping the poor according to Matthew 25 (Whereby love covers a multitude of sins) is not something I disagree with. I agree that we have to help the poor or there are dire consequences to one's soul in the after-life in not doing so.


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Well, the Bible is not the type of book that hits you over the head by using words that we prefer. The Bible says in many other ways that we are to obey the New Testament Commands and not the Old Testament Commands. This is obvious when one pieces together all the evidence available to us in Scripture. Yes, some Commands like loving God and loving your neighbor have carried on over from the Old Covenant into the New. But you have to realize that there are many Laws or Commands that are different in the Old versus the New.

A good website that helped me to understand the difference between what Covenant I should obey were the many articles on such a topic (that includes lots of Scripture) at Grace Community International. I would recommend in beginning with this article here:

https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses

As for Matthew 25: Well, to love one's neighbor (like in helping the poor) is a Command that has been carried over into the New Testament (obviously). In the Old Testament, neglecting the poor was an insult one's maker (Proverbs 14:31) (Proverbs 17:5) and the ignoring of the cry of the poor would mean God would ignore their cry as a result (Proverbs 21:13). But helping the poor according to Matthew 25 (Whereby love covers a multitude of sins) is not something I disagree with. I agree that we have to help the poor or there are dire consequences to one's soul in the after-life in not doing so.


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Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
so the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law, before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Love covers many sins.
 
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Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
so the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law, before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
Love covers many sins.

Okay, so what do you believe? Do you believe in Eternal Security whereby a person can sin and still be saved? For example: Do you believe a person can die in unrepenant sin (like murder, lying, and not forgiving another) and still make into Heaven? Do you believe that a saint will always have sin in their life? Meaning, do you believe it is impossible for a believer to stop sinning? Please answer these questions first; For it will help me to know how to proceed in answering to what you had written above.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


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Okay, so what do you believe? Do you believe in Eternal Security whereby a person can sin and still be saved? For example: Do you believe a person can die in unrepenant sin (like murder, lying, and not forgiving another) and still make into Heaven? Do you believe that a saint will always have sin in their life? Meaning, do you believe it is impossible for a believer to stop sinning? Please answer these questions first; For it will help me to know how to proceed in answering to what you had written above.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


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I believe we will always sin
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
This is the way to repentance.


Matthew chapter 21



32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

I believe the more we love the greater our reward, because everyone sins every pastor and every pope.
 
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Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I cannot see how you can think that the the Law is in reference to both to the Old Testament and the New Testament when the Laws in the New Testament clearly contradict Old Testament Law.

For the Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

Also, if you are implying faith is something that came about until the New Testament: Well, that is not exactly true (if that is what you are saying). Faith is not something that only existed in the New Testament. Faith also existed in the Old Testament, too. Just as Law exists in both Testaments. Obedience to the Law in both Covenants was merely the evidence of one's faith. The problem only arises when someone tries to turn God's plan into salvation into a "To Do List" without recognizing God's grace and mercy and in not loving others (Which is a reflection of loving God). But make no mistake, though. Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my Commandments" (John 14:15).

But we know Paul was referencing the Law of Moses in the book of Romans and Galatians with the word "Law" because he was warning against the heresy of circumcision within those books. So that is the context of the word "Law." For Paul even says, "shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?" "God forbid" is what Paul says in reply to that question. Does that mean we should go back to the Old Law and be circumcised? No. That was a part of the Old Law and not the New Law.

Paul even said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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disciple1

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Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I cannot see how you can think that the the Law is in reference to both to the Old Testament and the New Testament when the Laws in the New Testament clearly contradict Old Testament Law.

For the Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

Also, if you are implying faith is something that came about until the New Testament: Well, that is not exactly true (if that is what you are saying). Faith is not something that only existed in the New Testament. Faith also existed in the Old Testament, too. Just as Law exists in both Testaments. Obedience to the Law in both Covenants was merely the evidence of one's faith. The problem only arises when someone tries to turn God's plan into salvation into a "To Do List" without recognizing God's grace and mercy and in not loving others (Which is a reflection of loving God). But make no mistake, though. Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my Commandments" (John 14:15).

But we know Paul was referencing the Law of Moses in the book of Romans and Galatians with the word "Law" because he was warning against the heresy of circumcision within those books. So that is the context of the word "Law." For Paul even says, "shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?" "God forbid" is what Paul says in reply to that question. Does that mean we should go back to the Old Law and be circumcised? No. That was a part of the Old Law and not the New Law.

Paul even said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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No one but Christ was ever strong enough to turn the other cheek, it means you let them do anything they want to you, if they want to take every thing you got you give it to them, you let them poke out both your eyes without a word.
No we're not like Christ the closest we can come to him is love. And Christ and god are love 1 john chapter 4 verse 8 and 16
 
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I believe we will always sin
1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Actually, 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believers against the false gnostics who denied the existence of sin. Christian Scientists deny the existence of sin. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security proponents partially deny the existence of sin, too. They say they sin on a physical level but they do not sin on a spiritual level because their sins are all paid for: Past, present, and future. So this verse would be for them, as well (for they are saying they have "no sin" (spiritually). The New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).​

In other words, 1 John 1:8 is a declaration of one saying that they have no sin if they do sin. For John tells us that we are not to sin, but if do sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ that we can go to (1 John 2:1) whereby if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Also, 1 John 2:4 refutes the Eternal Security Proponent's false thinking in regards to 1 John 1:8, as well.

How so?

Well, 1 John 2:3-4 says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

Did you catch that? Verse 4 says, he that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Is one keeping God's Commandments if they say they will always be breaking them? No. See, 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are essentially saying the same thing. For 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." A Law is a Commandment. 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin (i.e. We break God's Commandments) we lie and do not the truth. 1 John 2:4 says roughly the same thing. It says if we say we know Him and do not keep His Commandments (i.e. sin) we lie and do not the truth.

See, believers do not deny the existence of sin if they do happen to sin. For they follow John's instructions as per 1 John 1:9 in confessing their sins if they do happen to sin. However, the Eternal Security Proponent partially denies the existence of sin. Therefore, as a result, they are denying both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:9. For the Eternal Security Proponent does not actually believe they are being forgiven of sin by confessing sin as per 1 John 1:9. They think 1 John 1:9 is just a forgiveness of sin on a physical level and it is talking about a break in fellowship (with them still being saved). But John's epistle makes no mention how one is saved even while being out of felllowship with God by breaking God's Commandments, though. For 1 John 2:4 refutes such an idea.

James chapter 2 verse 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James is talking about the "Law of Liberty" in the New Testament (See James 2:12) and not the Law of Moses or all Law (Which would include the Law of Moses). The "Law of Liberty" are the Commands or Laws given to us under the New Testament and not the Old Testament.

This is the way to repentance.

Repentance is the Sinner's Prayer which then leads to the fruits or deeds befitting of repentance.
A good example of Repentance is what Jesus said about it.
He said that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah.

If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would see that they put on sack cloth and ashes (Which is common in confessing one's sins to God elsewhere in the Bible) which was then followed by the fruits of repentance by them turning from their evil and wicked ways.

Matthew chapter 21
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.

First, this is Matthew 21:32 and not Matthew 21:26, etc.
Second, lets read the context or the verses leading up to Matthew 21:32.

It says,

28 "But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Which of the two did the will of his father? They said unto him, The first."

Here we see the one who did the Father's will is the one who repented and then obeyed God.

However, by what you said so far, you are giving me the impression that Jesus will save us despite them not doing the will of the Father.

Is that what you are saying?

Well, if that is the case, Jesus said elswhere in Scripture,

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).​

Did you catch that?

Jesus says not everyone who says unto Him, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father.

What is the will of the Father or the will of God?

The answer is "Sanctification."

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, ..." (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (King James).
"God's will is for you to be holy" (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (New Living Translation).​

For it is written...

"Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16).​

Scripture also says,

"Follow .... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14).​

Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

This was said in light of John's warning that if they did not bring forth fruit or deeds, they would be cast into to the fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

"And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire." (Luke 3:9).​

I believe the more we love the greater our reward, because everyone sins every pastor and every pope.

Well, there are no such things as popes in the Bible. Many of the teachings in the Catholic church are unbiblical, my friend. They pray to Mary and use her as a mediator when Christ Jesus is our one and only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). They also bow down to idols and say that this is not idol worship - even when Daniels friends were willing to be put to death for not making it appear that they were bowing down with the rest of the others towards a statue made of their king. God's Word says we are not to even an appearance of any evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22).

Also, it is not true that everyone sins. This is not what the Bible teaches.
1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have CEASED (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have CRUCIFIED the affections and lusts.
The 144,000 who will live on the Earth in the future will be found without fault before the Throne of God (Revelation 14:4-5).
This means, that if they can be without fault before God, then you can, too.
In fact, Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
Jesus told TWO people to: "Go and sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11).
Paul says, "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Paul says, "sin shall not have dominion over you." (Romans 6:14).
John says, "he that sins of the devil." (1 John 3:8).
John also says, "everyone that does evil hates the light. (John 3:20).

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No one but Christ was ever strong enough to turn the other cheek, it means you let them do anything they want to you, if they want to take every thing you got you give it to them, you let them poke out both your eyes without a word.
No we're not like Christ the closest we can come to him is love. And Christ and god are love 1 john chapter 4 verse 8 and 16

Right, so Christ was telling us to do something that only He could do?
I am sorry, that doesn't make any sense.


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disciple1

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Right, so Christ was telling us to do something that only He could do?
I am sorry, that doesn't make any sense.


....
We don't agree I can't convince you, you can't convince me, we'd just go on and on.
Here's freedom, but you want slavery.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32 To the Jews who believed him Jesus said if you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
 
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