A thought about the second coming.....

[Tyndale]

....while thinking about how many different beliefs there are within Christianity about the second coming, I was wondering if there's a simpler explanation which we may have missed.

Could it be possible that the second coming doesn't/'didn't' happen as a world-wide historical event, but is a more personal experience between ourselves and our maker when we die? When we die, could we personally see our Lord Jesus coming in the clouds as described by him in the Gospels?

As simply an exercise, is there any scripture which would rubbish this idea?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could it be possible that the second coming doesn't/'didn't' happen as a world-wide historical event, but is a more personal experience between ourselves and our maker when we die? When we die, could we personally see our Lord Jesus coming in the clouds as described by him in the Gospels?

That is an interesting interpretation. [I like your username and siggy ]

That could actually explain this passage in Matt 26 concerning what Jesus spoke to the Chief Priest concerning His coming.

Were they or their descendants alive at that event?

This same greek word for "clouds" is also used in Reve 1:7

Matthew 26:64 Is saying to him the Jesus "thou say, moreover I am saying to ye from present/now ye shall be seeing the Son of the Man sitting out of rights of the power and coming upon the clouds/nefelwn <3507> of the heaven". [Reve 1:7]

Revelation 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds/nefelwn <3507> and shall be seeing Him every eye.........[Jeremiah 4:13/Matt 24:30/26:64]

 

[Tyndale]

In the gospels Jesus said he'll come quick and talked about us not knowing the day or hour of his coming. In Rev (supposadly written after 70AD) John talked of Jesus coming quickly. Has the second coming more to do with our lifespan than an event int he past or future?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In the gospels Jesus said he'll come quick and talked about us not knowing the day or hour of his coming. In Rev John talked of Jesus coming quickly. Has the second coming more to do with our lifespan than an event int he past or future?

Jesus uses the words "in swiftness" and "nigh".

I would say each generation that reads this will believe it applies to them. Thoughts?

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants which-things is binding to be becoming In Swiftness.

Reve 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written for the Time Nigh/egguV <1451>. [Luke 21:31/Reve 22:6,10]

 

[Norbert L]

That would somewhat depend on how much a person want's to create and argument for 1 Th 4:16-17 as an allegory, seeing that it includes -> the living.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Ultimately the line between literal and allegory will be like this ->

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That would somewhat depend on how much a person want's to create and argument for 1 Th 4:16-17 as an allegory, seeing that it includes -> the living.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Ultimately the line between literal and allegory will be like this ->

Tis true

Luke 21:31 "Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these these becoming, ye are knowing that NIGH/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God."

Reve 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written for the Time NIGH/egguV <1451>. [Luke 21:31/Reve 22:6,10]

 

[Tyndale]

Matt 25 v 32 says, "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

When a Shepherd divides his sheep from the goats, he does it individually. Rarely does it happen in one event. He seperates his sheep over a period of time.

'from' "apo" Strongs - away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matt 25 v 32 says, "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

When a Shepherd divides his sheep from the goats, he does it individually. Rarely does it happen in one event. He seperates his sheep over a period of time.

'from' "apo" Strongs - away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation

I think it does help to know the Greek a little.
2 Tim 4:1 is an oft discussed verse concerning the greek word #3195. He uses both "living and dead" whereas Reve 11:18 used only "the dead".
I am still working on this

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the God and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the being-about/mellontoV <3195> (5723) to be judging living and dead according as the appearance/manifestation of Him and the Kingdom of Him [Reve 11:18]

Reve 11:18 And the nations are angered and came Thy wrath, and the Time of the dead to be judged and to give the wages toThy Bond-servants, the prophets, and to the Saints, and to those fearing Thy name, the small, and the great.
And to blight the ones blighting the land

 

[Tyndale]

That would somewhat depend on how much a person want's to create and argument for 1 Th 4:16-17 as an allegory, seeing that it includes -> the living.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

Ultimately the line between literal and allegory will be like this ->

What about the second resurrection described in Rev, where would that fit?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think it does help to know the Greek a little.
2 Tim 4:1 is an oft discussed verse concerning the greek word #3195. He uses both "living and dead" whereas Reve 11:18 used only "the dead".
I am still working on this

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the God and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the being-about/mellontoV <3195> (5723) to be judging living and dead according as the appearance/manifestation of Him and the Kingdom of Him [Reve 11:18]

Reve 11:18 And the nations are angered and came Thy wrath, and the Time of the dead to be judged and to give the wages toThy Bond-servants, the prophets, and to the Saints, and to those fearing Thy name, the small, and the great.
And to blight the ones blighting the land

This is interesting. Both Matt and Acts 23 uses that same word

Matthew 3:7 Seeing yet many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon his baptism he said to them "produce of vipers! who suggested to ye to be fleeing from the being about/melloushV <3195> (5723) Wrath? [Reve 3:10/12:4]

Acts 23:3 Then Paul said toward him, "to be smiting thee is being about/mellei <3195> (5719) the God. Wall! whitewashed!
And thou, thou dost sitting judging me according to the law, and being beside law, ordering me to be being smitten!' [Matt 23:27]

 

[squint]

Clouds are a 'picture' of obscurity.

The 'last siting' of Jesus 'physically' was of Him Rising into a cloud...

Acts 1:
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He was taken UP into OBSCURITY and will ARRIVE in likewise manner. In obscurity. We have other depictions of 'how' that arrival will be as well. Like a THIEF in the NIGHT...again a picture of OBCURITY.

These are all 'allegorical' matters. The 'actual arrival' of Jesus will be an 'INTERNAL MATTER.' There will be no PHYSICAL JESUS entering INTO your or my physical BODY...We will not be 'seeing' this, HIS arrival in a 'physical manner.'

Jesus has arrived MANY times since then. He 'arrived' for Saul on the road to Damascus in this manner:

Acts 9:
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice

As an interesting side note, Paul says here that the others that were with him ALSO heard the 'voice.'

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice

But in Acts 22 Paul gives what appears to be CONFLICTING testimony about them 'hearing.'

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice

There IS a similar account in the Gospels where some 'heard' the voice of God, and others who were also there only heard it as 'thunder.'

These are particularly placed in the texts for very specific reasons as to what they heard or didn't hear and more importantly WHY...

bait for the day...

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

quote squint *snip*
These are particularly placed in the texts for very specific reasons as to what they heard or didn't hear and more importantly WHY...

bait for the day...

enjoy!

squint

LLOJ comes up, sniffs the bait...and flees!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7347885/
Who is the "Cloud of Witnesses"?

 

[squint]

LLOJ comes up, sniffs the bait...and flees!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7347885/
Who is the "Cloud of Witnesses"?

That's OK lloj. I'm just baitin for the GOOD fish....

 

[visionary]

....while thinking about how many different beliefs there are within Christianity about the second coming, I was wondering if there's a simpler explanation which we may have missed.

Could it be possible that the second coming doesn't/'didn't' happen as a world-wide historical event, but is a more personal experience between ourselves and our maker when we die? When we die, could we personally see our Lord Jesus coming in the clouds as described by him in the Gospels?

As simply an exercise, is there any scripture which would rubbish this idea?

Problem... the resurrection of the body happens at the time of His coming.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Problem... the resurrection of the body happens at the time of His coming.

Tis true.
Where is that coming shown in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation in your view?

 

[Tyndale]

Problem... the resurrection of the body happens at the time of His coming.

not our human bodies though. We'll be given new bodies

 

[visionary]

Tis true.
Where is that coming shown in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation in your view?

Coming as the Messiah King to rule.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Coming as the Messiah King to rule.

That is not what I asked

 

[Markus6]

not our human bodies though. We'll be given new bodies

It is still a resurrection which will use our human bodies as a seed.
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;”
(1 Corinthians 15:42 NAS95)
1 Corinthians 15 also shows that our resurrection will be in like manner to Jesus'. He had an empty grave and a recognisable, touchable body but had clearly been changed (walking through walls etc.).

2 Timothy also talks about a group who had said the resurrection had already happened (note the definite article, only one)
“men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.”
(2 Timothy 2:18 NAS95)

 

[visionary]

not our human bodies though. We'll be given new bodies

True but they are our bodies being resurrected into an immortal body. Which means it is a body that will not die. Just as our LOrd was transfigured on the Mount, so also I believe we will be transfigured at the resurrection.