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a third of the angels fell?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by chunkofcoal, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Senior Member

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    I know people talk about "a third of the angels fell", and that comes from this verse, I think -

    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    But couldn't that verse be along the lines of this one? -

    Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.


    In Rev. 12:4 it says the tail drew the third part of the stars and cast them to the earth - Why would the dragon cast his own angels to the earth?

    It's written later in the chapter -

    Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    In those verses there was a war, and the dragon and his angels were cast out.
    But in verse 4, the dragon's tail had cast out one third of the stars.

    So, I have two questions - does the term "stars" actually mean "angels" in that chapter or are they two different things?
    If the two terms are interchangeable, then why would the dragon cast out his own angels/stars?
     
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Reminds me of the Book of Enoch. He talks about the connections between angels and stars..
     
  3. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua New Member

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    The word "star-s" is often used as a parable to refer to man or men.

    Numbers 24:17
    “I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the people of Sheth.
    Stars:
    BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: \"stars\"
     
  4. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua New Member

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    There is no such thing as "angel-s." The correct translation into English is "messenger-s."
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven.

    Is 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

    Yeshua said Luke 10:18 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,

    and in the book of the Revelation Satan is seen as Rev 9:1 ..a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth.

    It shouldn't be too hard of a stretch to put two and two together and agree that the stars=fallen angels in the verses you used. Especially when the Bible itself makes the connection...

    Rev 12:9 the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him
     
  6. Shimshon

    Shimshon Jewish Believer קדוש לישוע

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    The book is not a linear book. Such as Rev 12 is not a chronological account. As my wife likes to accuse me of, the writer seems to be reiterating. Verses 1- 6 appear to outline verses 7-17.

    The reference in verse 4 refers to how the angels followed the apostasy of the dragon. Since they followed the dragon (tail) they were cast out of heaven, as described more (again) in verse 9.

    I believe its two ways of looking at (describing) the same thing. Yes, angels are referred to as stars of heaven. Yes, a third of them were cast out because of following the dragon (Satan). Yes, they are interchangeable in this account. No, you can’t read this as though it was a chronological account. If you did you would see the angels cast down twice...which is what I believe you are stumbling with. You would also see the woman first in heaven (verse 1), then after the dragon is cast to earth he chases the woman (verse 13). If the woman was in heaven, how did the dragon chase her 'after' he was cast down to earth.

    To me, God tends to communicate to us polyphonically. Um, I mean prophetically. ;P He shows you the feet then you see how the body stands. Though, some just stand there staring at the feet in ignorance of the body attached to it. They freek out when a hand reaches down and touches them, cause they can't focus on the body. Just the feet.

    This account is a very intricate word painting that if you follow in chronological order you will get tripped up. Stand back and look at the whole painting, stop focusing on the order the strokes were layed.

    HTH
     
  7. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua New Member

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    This world is also called "Heaven."
    And God called the firmament heaven.


    Genesis 1:6
    And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    9. And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
    10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


    Luke 17:21
    nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is among you."
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    :wave:
    :clap:good to see you again..
     
  9. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua New Member

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    Rev 12:9 the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent / snake called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the [earth / ground], and his [angels / messengers] with him.
     
  10. Lulav

    Lulav Messianic Maven Supporter

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    I think the keyword to concentrate on here is, 'tail'. Various translations translate it as drew, swept away, etc.

    I think it should be more correct to translate it as 'dragged'. As he is the head, and his sins against G-d lead the others into sinning, thus they were dragged away on the 'tail' of his sins and cast out of heaven with him.
     
    visionary and Tishri1 like this.
  11. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Senior Member

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    Well, it seems as you all are in agreement, so there's no sense in my questioning a commonly held belief. :p

    BUT what about Daniel 8:10? Who or what is that which will cast down "some of the host and of the stars to the ground" and then stamp on them?
    If you don't think that it's the dragon's tail that did it, then what or whom?

    And Shimshon is right - the woman in Rev. 12 is seen in heaven first -

    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    And then the dragon chases her after he is cast to earth -

    Rev 12:13-16 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    So was the woman in heaven, on earth? Both? Heaven first and then earth? Would this woman be considered among "the host and the stars" like mentioned in Daniel?

    I still think Rev. 12:4 sounds like the dragon is trying to take over heaven, in which case, knocking stars out of heaven and trying to devour the child which is going to rule seems to be something he would try. :p
     
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    That would definitely cause a war of all out wars in heaven .. to have an upstart in the midst... esepcially one who is trying to sit on the throne of the Most High..........
     
  13. Shimshon

    Shimshon Jewish Believer קדוש לישוע

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    The common held beleif is that it was Antiochus... You can find this on crosswalk from The Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible ....



    I believe it's both. It happens in heaven and a shadow of it appears here on earth. We are forever, linked.

     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2010
  14. Shimshon

    Shimshon Jewish Believer קדוש לישוע

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    :wave:
     
  15. GuardianShua

    GuardianShua New Member

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    Genesis 1:14
    14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    Genesis 37:9
    Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”


    Curious: Rev 1:12. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

    "A woman clothed with the sun,..." symbolizes the Catholic Church. But a woman with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head symbolizes Israel.


    Why are those who keep the commandments addressed separately from that woman?

    Revelation 12:17
    Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

    Revelation 14:12
    This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.



    Woman of Revelation:
    BibleGateway.com - Keyword[bless and do not curse]Search: woman
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2010
  16. Lulav

    Lulav Messianic Maven Supporter

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    There is a woman in the heavens, also there is a dragon as well.

    The woman reference is to a particular time.

    Notice carefully what it says:

    Remember that 'heaven' is not necessarily where HaShem is, but it is also where the stars reside.

    This 'wonder' that 'appeared' (came into being as it was hidden before) is described next as

    the woman who was 'clothed with the sun' and the moon was under her feet.

    On her head was a 'crown' of twelve stars.

    The woman is in the nightly sky. The moon and sun move around. There are times when the moon would appear under her feet, and twelve stars could be seen over the head.

    As for the sun 'clothing her' it means to surround as clothes surround our bodies.

    Now read this with the understanding from Genesis 1:14

    This passage in Revelation speaks of a specific time in history. When did that happen? What was the sign in the sky?
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Antiochus can not be the right answer.. because Yeshua used Daniel for future reference of prophetic events yet to be fulfilled...
     
  18. Shimshon

    Shimshon Jewish Believer קדוש לישוע

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    I assume your refering to Matt 24:15. I think your fusing two vision into one, Dan. 8 (Evenings and Mornings) and Dan. 9 (Seventy Weeks).

    Dan 8 is detailing the first coming of the annointed one (Messiah). Dan 9 is giving the perspective of the second coming.

    Either way, Antiochus had yet to desolate Yisrael when Yeshua used Dan 9 in reference. So I believe Dan 8 very well could still refer to Antiochus.

    Dan 8 representing the forerunner of the Antichrist in Dan 9. Both had yet to arrive when Yeshua referenced Dan 9 in Matt 24.
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I tried to find out the timeing when the stars, moon and such were in the right positions in the sky... and did find out it was a rare event.. but can't remember much more than that.
     
  20. Lulav

    Lulav Messianic Maven Supporter

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    This Antiochus?

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 163 BC

    :scratch:
     
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