A Picture = a 1,000 words

[WisdomTree]

HI Zeke

I know you are lost in that false belief LOL I am teasing you. I know you have come to believe that but I am convinced that over the next few months I can show you that is just not what this is about. When the majority is Christian it is Green when it is not a majority I did light green and I am aware that for parts of Africa, Korea and Japan it may not be very accurate.

Hi Bible

I decided to go about this a bit differently so I wish to ask you a couple of Questions so I understand what you believe.

You believe that this Chapter ie Dan 11 starts with Alexander and Ends with the return of Jesus Correct?

So you're saying that Robb Stark doesn't actually own Eurasia while Tywin Lannister don't actually own Africa and West Asia via Jeoffrey Baratheon!?

 

[zeke37]

lol...folks have no idea what u are talking about..
I had to google it

 

[WisdomTree]

Oh dear... Come on people, it's Game of Thrones!!!

 

[Douggg]

The Leopard is Greece. Greece is the Goat that defeats the Ram/ Bear (Russia and Iran) in Daniel 8

What? You think Greece can defeat Russia and Iran?

Doug

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

I decided to go about this a bit differently so I wish to ask you a couple of Questions so I understand what you believe.

You believe that this Chapter ie Dan 11 starts with Alexander and Ends with the return of Jesus Correct?

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

I decided to go about this a bit differently so I wish to ask you a couple of Questions so I understand what you believe.

You believe that this Chapter ie Dan 11 starts with Alexander and Ends with the return of Jesus Correct?

This is correct. I believe that the purpose of verses 4 through 35 is to identify the characters discussed in verses 40 through 45.

In between these sections, we have first the definition of a gap in time, "until the time of the end," in verse 35, and then a description of the evil end time king of Judah, which is now called Israel. His wickedness is punished by the two pronged attack described in verses 40 through 45.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

So who is this talking about

32: And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33: And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34: Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35: And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Who are those who act wickedly against the Covenant? What do they do that is against the Covenant?

Who are those who are wise, who instruct many in the truth, who are made captives and burned, who receive a helper, who have many false people cling to them with false words, who are killed and made White...............all of this happening while many people are believing this is the time of the end?

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

So who is this talking about

32: And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33: And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34: Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35: And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Who are those who act wickedly against the Covenant? What do they do that is against the Covenant?

Who are those who are wise, who instruct many in the truth, who are made captives and burned, who receive a helper, who have many false people cling to them with false words, who are killed and made White...............all of this happening while many people are believing this is the time of the end?

In Daniel 11, verses 21 to 31 clearly describe the infamous career of Antiochus Epiphanes. His career begins with obtaining the kingdom by flatteries in verse 21 and ends with corrupting "such as do wickedly against the covenant" (of God, through Moses) in verse 32, after placing the "abomination that maketh desolate" in verse 31.

Then the pre-written divine history jumps to the time of the Maccabees, saying, "the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:" This continues to verse 35, where we read, "And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end:" this last situation was to last "even to the time of the end." This is where the big time jump occurs. Not a single item from the rest of the account has happened.

 

[Time Watcher]

You are absolutely correct BW ... this one is a slam dunk by the prophetic scriptures involved and by the corresponding historical record

Many do not know this truth and have been taught otherwise

It is very significant to know that Daniel 11:21-35 is an exact accounting of the career of Antiochus IV

The very next king beginning in 11:36 is the future little horn of Daniel's other visions

And herein lies the breach between .... an indeterminate period of silence in which none of the prophets see or tell of any events upon the earth .... all of them then move directly to the time appointed still pending today

If one does not understand this profound truth, nothing but confusion will result and why there are so many distorted views

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

Ok I am very familiar with this traditional understanding of Daniel 11.

So do you see Desolation as the many desolations of Daniel 9:

So then who is this

36: And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37: Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38: But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39: Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Also who's ships come from Kittam

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

Ok I am very familiar with this traditional understanding of Daniel 11.

So do you see Desolation as the many desolations of Daniel 9:

So then who is this

36: And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37: Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38: But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39: Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Also who's ships come from Kittam

The abomination of desolation was when Antiochus sacrificed a pig on the altar. It had to be cleansed before it could be used again.

Verses 36 to 39 describe the end time king of Judah, whom I, but not most, identify as the Antichrist.

As to the ships from Kittam, this word is plural in the Hebrew. It literally means "the Cypruses," and to the ancient Hebrews it meant the islands of the sea generally, and the coastlands beyond them. The ships from Kittam were the Roman ships sent to stop Antiochus from invading Egypt. All this (up to the middle of verse 35) literally happened, exactly as written, down to the smallest detail.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

So you see Kittim as being Rome, or at least Roman controlled territory.

Maccabees 1 states it was where Alexander came from

1Mac.1:[1] After Alexander son of Philip, the Macedonian, who came from the land of Kittim, had defeated Darius, king of the Persians and the Medes, he succeeded him as king.

So you see the Maccabees as being good and properly keeping the laws of Moses.

We know that the during the beginning of the reign of the Hasmoneans is the first mention of the Sect of the Pharisees. It is generally believed that it was the Hasideans who where the origin of the Sect. They gained power in the revolt of 167BC. In Alliance with Simon they instituted the Oral tradition and imposed it on the people. This Oral law was then banned in a power struggle with John Hyrcanus. Then reinstituted by Alexander in 103BC. So the oral law taught in Jesus time was actually brought and forced upon Judea by the Hasmoneans IE: the Maccabees.

So you believe the following????? Somewhere between the introduction of the Oral law introduced by the Maccabees and Jesus's Ministry what the Maccabees taught went from being Wise and Worthy of God's praise (Dan 11:33 )to being totally disgraced by Jesus.

Is that correct?

We know that all the High priests from 167BC (except during the reign of John Hyrcanus) to Jesus time where Pharisees. We know that the Romans kept Pharisees as High priest while putting Herod as King because Herod supported the Sadducees. This kept ambiguity between the office of King and High priest and insured there would never be a union of Power in Judea against Rome.

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi

So you see Kittim as being Rome, or at least Roman controlled territory.

Maccabees 1 states it was where Alexander came from

1Mac.1:[1] After Alexander son of Philip, the Macedonian, who came from the land of Kittim, had defeated Darius, king of the Persians and the Medes, he succeeded him as king.

You did not carefully read what I wrote. The Kittim was a Hebrew term for the islands of the sea generally, and for the coastlands on the far side of the sea. This included both modern day Greece and Italy.

So you see the Maccabees as being good and properly keeping the laws of Moses.

We know that the during the beginning of the reign of the Hasmoneans is the first mention of the Sect of the Pharisees. It is generally believed that it was the Hasideans who where the origin of the Sect. They gained power in the revolt of 167BC. In Alliance with Simon they instituted the Oral tradition and imposed it on the people. This Oral law was then banned in a power struggle with John Hyrcanus. Then reinstituted by Alexander in 103BC. So the oral law taught in Jesus time was actually brought and forced upon Judea by the Hasmoneans IE: the Maccabees.

So you believe the following????? Somewhere between the introduction of the Oral law introduced by the Maccabees and Jesus's Ministry what the Maccabees taught went from being Wise and Worthy of God's praise (Dan 11:33 )to being totally disgraced by Jesus.

Is that correct?

We know that all the High priests from 167BC (except during the reign of John Hyrcanus) to Jesus time where Pharisees. We know that the Romans kept Pharisees as High priest while putting Herod as King because Herod supported the Sadducees. This kept ambiguity between the office of King and High priest and insured there would never be a union of Power in Judea against Rome.

Jesus denounced the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I do not know when their teaching went astray. But I have personally traced a modern Christian group that totally reversed its stand on numerous major issues in a space of only around sixty to eighty years, without even knowing that anything had changed. In fact they were proud of the fact that they had maintained ALL of their original tradition. So what a group taught in 25-35 AD is no indication whatsoever of what that same group taught 200 years earlier in 167 BC.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

Quote
You did not carefully read what I wrote. The Kittim was a Hebrew term for the islands of the sea generally, and for the coastlands on the far side of the sea. This included both modern day Greece and Italy.
End Quote

I read it and summarized your position it was Roman ships that came from Kittim. I do not disagree at all with that statement. History shows that this is what happened.

Quote
Jesus denounced the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I do not know when their teaching went astray. But I have personally traced a modern Christian group that totally reversed its stand on numerous major issues in a space of only around sixty to eighty years, without even knowing that anything had changed. In fact they were proud of the fact that they had maintained ALL of their original tradition. So what a group taught in 25-35 AD is no indication whatsoever of what that same group taught 200 years earlier in 167 BC.
End Quote

I am assuming you are talking about the JW however they would certainly not be the only candidate.

So you believe that the King in verse 36 changes from being the King of the North to the King of Judah?

I am assuming you feel that because it does not say in his place shall rise etc etc.

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

Quote
You did not carefully read what I wrote. The Kittim was a Hebrew term for the islands of the sea generally, and for the coastlands on the far side of the sea. This included both modern day Greece and Italy.
End Quote

I read it and summarized your position it was Roman ships that came from Kittim. I do not disagree at all with that statement. History shows that this is what happened.

Quote
Jesus denounced the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I do not know when their teaching went astray. But I have personally traced a modern Christian group that totally reversed its stand on numerous major issues in a space of only around sixty to eighty years, without even knowing that anything had changed. In fact they were proud of the fact that they had maintained ALL of their original tradition. So what a group taught in 25-35 AD is no indication whatsoever of what that same group taught 200 years earlier in 167 BC.
End Quote

I am assuming you are talking about the JW however they would certainly not be the only candidate.

Actually, I was talking about the Plymouth Brethren, That is the only group whose doctrinal history I have studied in detail, but yes, I have heard it about the JWs as well.

So you believe that the King in verse 36 changes from being the King of the North to the King of Judah?

I am assuming you feel that because it does not say in his place shall rise etc etc.

No, "the king" does not change at all. Verse 36 starts an entirely new time, as clearly demonstrated in the text itself, as verse 35 transitions from ancient times to "the time of the end." Then verse 36 takes up a new subject. The comments about "the king" open an entirely new subject at a new time. So no change whatsoever is involved.

Biblical prophetic language is very precise. "the king" is an entirelty different designation than either "the king of the south" or "the king of the north," as they appear in order in this new subject and new time.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

I am curious why do you think any Jewish person in 167BC would have thought this was the end.

It is clear from Jewish writings they fully understood the 490 years of Punishment laid out in Daniel 9:

They could count no one in 167 BC was thinking the end was upon them.

However from about 47BC through to the destruction in 70 AD it is clear that almost everyone thought the end was tomorrow.

It is clear that from verse one to 28 we have 380 years of History unfolding with different verses covering differing amounts of time. Often there is no distinction between one King and the Next King only a reference to some time later.

Yet you seem to be willing to bunch literally a half dozen verses into one person. verse 28 to 35

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

I am curious why do you think any Jewish person in 167BC would have thought this was the end.

It is clear from Jewish writings they fully understood the 490 years of Punishment laid out in Daniel 9:

They could count no one in 167 BC was thinking the end was upon them.

However from about 47BC through to the destruction in 70 AD it is clear that almost everyone thought the end was tomorrow.

It is clear that from verse one to 28 we have 380 years of History unfolding with different verses covering differing amounts of time. Often there is no distinction between one King and the Next King only a reference to some time later.

Yet you seem to be willing to bunch literally a half dozen verses into one person. verse 28 to 35

I said absolutely nothing about whaty anyone thought in 167 BC. I only said that what the same group thought 200 years later was no indication of what they might have thought then.

As to what Antiochus Epiphanes did, it is simply a matter of history. But he is 21 to 32, not 28 to 35. 33-35 are the period after him up through the Maccabees. But all these are mere details that great point is that verse 35 very clearly jumps ahead to "the time of the end." And nothing after that verse has happened.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

Quote
I said absolutely nothing about whaty anyone thought in 167 BC. I only said that what the same group thought 200 years later was no indication of what they might have thought then.
End Quote

No I meant this. I have found that there is always a reason why definitive statements are made in Prophecy. It is obvious God knows what people would be saying and so he purposely puts in the counter response.

Let me give you some examples of what I mean.

Rev 13:10: He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In the Above verse God knows there will be preacher and Ministers telling the people they must fight. So he puts in the Warning.

In Addition the NT is full of tie ins to the OT prophecy. Since Jesus is the one who gives Daniel the prophecy you know he will reference it in his own prophecy.

Now pay close attention to this next one

Matt 24:6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

This is our Direct Tie in to

Daniel 11:27: And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

So that is how I see this.

But I do not wish to talk about what I see

So there is an abomination that causes desolation in Daniel 11: Jesus refers to Daniel and the abomination that causes desolation. We know this is 200 years after the pig on the Alter.

So in your opinion which Abomination of Desolation is Jesus referencing in Matt 24:

15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

It is clear you do not believe it is the Abomination of Daniel 11 so which one do you see this as referencing?

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi Bible

Quote
I said absolutely nothing about whaty anyone thought in 167 BC. I only said that what the same group thought 200 years later was no indication of what they might have thought then.
End Quote

No I meant this. I have found that there is always a reason why definitive statements are made in Prophecy. It is obvious God knows what people would be saying and so he purposely puts in the counter response.

Let me give you some examples of what I mean.

Rev 13:10: He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In the Above verse God knows there will be preacher and Ministers telling the people they must fight. So he puts in the Warning.

In Addition the NT is full of tie ins to the OT prophecy. Since Jesus is the one who gives Daniel the prophecy you know he will reference it in his own prophecy.

Now pay close attention to this next one

Matt 24:6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

This is our Direct Tie in to

Daniel 11:27: And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

So that is how I see this.

But I do not wish to talk about what I see

So there is an abomination that causes desolation in Daniel 11: Jesus refers to Daniel and the abomination that causes desolation. We know this is 200 years after the pig on the Alter.

So in your opinion which Abomination of Desolation is Jesus referencing in Matt 24:

15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

It is clear you do not believe it is the Abomination of Daniel 11 so which one do you see this as referencing?

The one in Daniel 12:11. Why don't you just get to the point instead of continually trying to trap me?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bible

I am not trying to trap you just understand how you see these prophecies.

I would agree The Abomination in Daniel 12 is the Match for Matt 24:

So what do you see as the Sacrifice that is taken away? And what do you see as the Abomination?